Loving/The City Discussion Thread

[DRW50]

Thanks. I wonder if Rebecca ever wished she'd stayed at Loving, although she wasn't going to be at either show for very long.

There isn't much of Colleen's Cecilia around. There was a clip of her in a bar with Rick, but I don't think it's on Youtube at the moment. She is also the maid of honor at Ava's wedding to "Clay," for some reason.

[j swift]

Thought-provoking stuff.

I've really been contemplating your post for the past few hours.  Because my first instinct was that Lucinda was a wonderfully complex character.  But, then I started to think how much that characterization was implied based on the casting, and how much of Lucinda's complexity was actually filled in by subsequent writers.  IIRC, Marland wrote Lily finding out that she was adopted.  But, it wasn't until much later that anyone explored what inspired Lucinda to bond so closely with Lily. - sorry for the ATWT tangent

I also really appreciate this idea because of the obvious parallel between Corinth-Ann and Pine Valley's Ann Tyler Martin. I could see her as a Nixon-coded character that may not have inspired Marland as much.  They were both nice, but miserable, rich, blonds, with more popular siblings, that allowed the audience to believe that money couldn't buy happiness.

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Edited April 20 by j swift

[dc11786]

One of the struggles I see in early Loving is the execution of archetypes that both writers used with their own flavor. Whether Ava is Erica Kane or Nola Reardon seems based on who is at the helm. Similarly, whether Dane Hammond is Nick Davis or one of Marland blue collar schemers falls into the same category. Out of curiousity, what would you have liked seen done with Anne in that first year?

Nixon had Ava waving a gun around threatening to shoot Stacey fairly early on so I am not sure if Nixon had a grip on Ava (or maybe Ava just didn't have a grip on her sanity). 

Nixon and Marland are so different in style it was bound to be chaotic transferring story. Even Millee Taggert/Robert Guza to Agnes Nixon has its complications. I much prefered Taggert/Guza's Shana / Leo story to Nixon's. Elements of Stacey / Buck worked better under the prior regime than under Nixon, but I do think Nixon had a stronger long story vision for Stacey and Buck (and possibly Stacey / Curtis). Nixon does great work with Steffi Brewster with her eating disorder, introducing calculating and flighty Deborah, and pairing her with Clay and Cooper. I loved Janie Sinclair. The Cradle Foundation mystery was very good. I really liked Ava being accused of Egypt's "murder," but I know others didn't like it. The ad agency stuff was great.

I just don't see the same energy in the 1985-1986 Loving material. It all seems very flat, but maybe I just haven't seen enough of it. 

I also think Stacey was more interesting in the late run Marland episodes from March, 1985, then from anything after in the 1980s until about Lily's return. 

I think Nixon, like Marland and others, defaults to many of her past storylines. Anne and Harry Sowolosky is just Anne and Nick Davis. Except I don't think Nick kidnapped and threatened to rape anyone in the Tyler clan, but AMC is not always my cup of tea.  

Honestly, I wasn't even thinking of the money angle, which definitely should have been explored more. Nixon had that set up when she was leaving in August, 1994. Cabot had returned and there was the anniversary of Alden Enterprises and Lady Alden soap. McCarthy and Walsh execute the reveal as they had working on Nixon's team. I appreciate a lot of things that Addie Walsh and Laurie McCarthy do early in their run, but dropping that story wasn't one of them. I do think that would have been a great starting point to bring back on some Watleys especially given that contracts would be up. Not that I would want Ted Knight in the role, but I think some of Danny's story could have gone to Johnny Watley.  

Carly's departure (along with Paul, Michael, and Flynn) was to open up space on the canvas for the younger set that Walsh wanted to introduce (Staige, Kent, Cooper, and Casey). With the half-hour, there was only so much room. 

I think Marland's Trisha and Steve dealt with the complications of her involvement with Rick Elkins, another preppie boy that was in the Aldens social circle. I imagine that story may have played out a little while longer. 

When Trisha and Trucker's class conflict marriage tension occurs under Mary Ryan Munisteri, I do feel that there is an underlying level of elitism to what Trisha is doing. Isn't there a rather ridiculous rant in an early October 1991 episode where Trisha goes off because Trucker stole Giff downstairs to the bar of the Corinth Towers so that they can watch a basketball game or something? I think a lot of it was low level and one script writer even had Trisha write it off as pregnancy hormones, but Trisha definintely had a bit of entitlement. It was just later cloaked by her moral high ground regarding Trucker and Dinahlee's affair, which she had every right to have. 

I hate Giff / Trisha from about July - September 1992. I cannot watch much of it either because it is so bad. It's such a left field move to have Giff suddenly go psycho in a scene with Casey at their apartment when there was no real build before. 

I've seen a little of Dion as Cecilia in the November, 1987, episodes that have popped up over the years. I find Cecilia's romance with Rick had the potential to spark a lot of drama, but I think Ralph Ellis decided to place Rick further into the Jack / Stacey / Lily story by encouraging Lily as well as taking the role that Curtis should have played in that story. Steve dies later in the month or early in December and Cecilia is gone. I'm not even sure she's around long enough to see Steve off. 

[Kane]

She and Ava were friends. Cecelia lived in the Rescott house for a while after her father died and before she and Steve got married, and Ava was her confidante when she was scheming to hold on to Steve, which put Ava in an awkward position since she knew Clay (Alex) would be angry if he knew she was helping Trisha's rival.

[DRW50]

Thanks. I hope some of that shows up someday. (or maybe it is in some clips/episodes I just forgot)

I did forget about the scene with Trucker and Giff. Thanks. 

The little I've seen from 85-86 does seem flat, aside from some of the performances. 

I never knew Ava was waving a gun at Stacey. I guess this must have still been Patty Lotz. 

So Joe Breen didn't choose to leave? I couldn't remember. 

The Danny character being tied to the Rescotts would have been better, in part because we wouldn't have had the sleazy Danny/Ally material that made the character difficult to watch.

[dc11786]

It is Roya as Ava who is threatening to shoot Stacey with a gun. Ava had the gun, but maybe I'm embellishing she actually went up to Stacey to use it. This was July or August, 1985. Stacey and Jack decided to be together and ignore Ava despite Jack still being married to her. There was a clip of this somewhere. Maybe in a promo or in some of the material that popped up over the years. 

I don't think it was Joe Breen's choice to leave, but it may have been. I feel like the sorority / fraternity crew arrives in late March and by early May the Carly / Paul / Michael / Flynn crew have all departed leaving Ava in limbo until the Phantom of Burnell's story which I suspect might have been originally intended to be the set up for Curtis' return in 1992. 

The City crew who arrive in the months preceeding its arrival really do little for me. Danny is probably the worst of the lot, but so many of them are so vapid and self absorbed that I don't remember much about them. 

[Soaplovers]

From looking at the character bio for Cecelia on that Loving website, I agree that the character wouldn't have stayed long term at least the way Staab appears to have played the character.

If the dates listed on that website were accurate, Staab played the part for five months, Alice Haining played the part for about seven months, and Dion played the part for almost a year and half. 

There was a picture of Cecelia as played by Staab and wow.. she was a Madonna wannabe with teased blonde hair, tight black mini dress, and acting coy with Steve.  The episode I saw of Haining's Alice had her wearing a black leather jacket with her hair styled almost like Trisha's.. and Dion seemed to be styled more like Ava in the episode I came across of hers.  This was all due to the fact that the character wasn't an actual character.. but an obstacle trope.

Staab's Cecelia was an obstacle/distraction that kept Steve/Trisha apart.  Apparently her and Trisha had a catfight that resulted in both falling into the Alden pool.  Another element that was in play was her relationship with her controlling father that owned the garage where Steve was working.  Her fear of him finding out she defied his orders to stay away from Steve caused her to lie that Steve raped her.  And the height of that story was in play in November 1985 when Staab quit the show to go work at Guiding Light as Jesse.. so I understood why the show panicked and had to quickly find a replacement over the weekend.. which probably explains why Haining was cast (who didn't resemble nor act like Staab whatsoever).

During Haining's stint, Cecelia is less a bad girl and more tortured and feeling remorse over how her lie has caused trouble for Steve.  Her main functions during her stint was trying to make up for her lie by helping Steve/Trisha.. first with warning Steve about his ex cell mate Spider and his plans for Trisha.. and then stealing to give to Steve/Trisha so that they could escape.   Meanwhile, her father moves his abuse from psychological to physical by beating Cecelia for stealing money from his garage, but he ends up dying.  The final leg of her stint involves her moving into Kate's bording house, pretending to date Spider in order to save her late dad's garage since he was working at the garage in order to help funnel drugs through there and to throw him off the trail of finding Steve/Trisha.

Once Steve/Trisha defeat Spider while on the run and have returned, Dion appears to now be playing Cecelia.. and her Cecelia is back to being an obstacle for Steve/Trisha... and that lasts until at least the summer of 1987 where her schemes are exposed by Steve and he leaves her for Trisha.   Her last few months involve her saving Steve/Trisha by taking a bullet meant for them.. and then briefly dating Rick before believing the rumors he's sleeping with Gwyneth and decides to leave for a new life.

Most of her time on the show was basically an obstacle  

If Lorna Forbes into a heroine was a mistake especially when she totally could have fit in the slot as the obstacle between Trisha/Steve.. with the added conflict that the two girls were cousin... and it would have poured fire into the feud between their mothers Ann and Gwyneth.

Instead of the being tortured by her controlling mother in law and Zona.. then standing trial for killing Zona, then going to jail, getting together with her far too old lawyer and trying to be a step mom to his resentful daughter.  All of that story plays between March 1986 to January 1987 before Lorna is written off (and Susan Walters quits/fired in the middle of that story so I have a feeling the recast only was hired to finish the story and then be ushered out of town)>

[DRW50]

Thanks. The only reason I wasn't sure about Breen is because he debuted on ATWT several months later. 

I had forgotten about Roya's Ava and the gun. You're right that it's an odd choice. 

None of The City group worked for me on Loving as they feel so out of place. At the time I probably resented Jocelyn the most, due to us clearly being meant to root for her over Ava and Ava/Alex.

@Soaplovers Thanks so much for the rundown about Cecilia. It sounds like a bit of a mess on paper, as a number of plots in those years do. What does work onscreen tends to be down to the performers.

[Franko]

For me, it's Richard, who spent the last few months being as welcome as a mosquito and half as useful.

[DRW50]

I didn't hate Richard, but looking back, he was out of place and adds a very nasty pall to the last months of the show by just being a tabloid muckraker. It didn't even enhance his storyline, as you could say Danny, Tony, and Jocelyn had their stories enhanced by being in Corinth. 

I might have just left that character to the premiere of The City and instead had another character on to fill the gap. A young man, maybe a fashion student, who stays at the boarding house. He's friendly when he needs to be but also a schemer, gay, dreaming of moving to New York, and similar to a younger Ava, which leads them to clash, then start to bond. During that gap between Cabot and Isabelle dying and Jeremy dying, I might have Gwyn attack him (he might make some bitchy remarks about Steffi or work with Tess against her, without knowing the full extent of Tess' vendetta against Steffi) with it taking longer for the police to even care as they don't take crimes against gay men as seriously. Maybe in a twist of irony, Gwyn is the one who pushes for his case to be taken more seriously. He'd linger in a coma for a while and have a number of injuries. Ava would have another reason to leave town, as she would see just how much has changed in Corinth comparing her early years to what happened to him. He would stay in Corinth, still recovering but regaining his old spark, another child to Kate as all of her family has gone. Then, if The City had lasted longer, I might have him move to New York.

Edited April 22 by DRW50

[Franko]

I like this a lot. Not to get too OT, but "gay Ava Rescott" was what I wished Leo on DOOL had been.

[DRW50]

That would have worked, with a different writer and actor.

I wonder how much Ron ever knew of Loving as he didn't do a lot with it when he was on GH. Probably for the best, although if it had somehow gotten Christine Tudor or Lisa Peluso back on TV I would have watched.

Speaking of Peluso, I looked at her Instagram and see that on her Stories she's using Soul II Soul to sell houses. I approve.

[chrisml]

I still have no idea why Robert Tyler did not go on to a bigger career. He was so sexy and charismatic. He should have been snapped up by another soap.

[Franko]

Oh, that's just fabulous!

[Soaplovers]

Tudor probably would be persuaded to come back on TV for a quick stint more so than Peluso.. if her statements during her Locher Room interview still hold true.  She basically said she was happily retired doing real estate and that she enjoyed her acting career.. but she knew it was time to retire.