Loving/The City Discussion Thread

[Forever8]

An episode of Loving from 1985 has recently been uploaded. @dc11786   @DRW50

 

[Sapounopera]

The show had changed so much from its premiere and it had only been two years. 

TPTB should have tried to work a little longer with the original material. 

 

[dc11786]

Interesting to see that Marland is already out as headwriter by the end of May as is his creator credit. Eugene Price is listed first under writers. 

I haven't watched all of it, but it's great to see more of Betsy Burr as Noreen. Noreen and Mike Donovan were an interesting conflict for Jim and Shana. I'm not a huge fan of the Jonathan tale. I think the first part with him as a sinister serial killer is dark and gloomy, but the second round with the devil stuff isn't my cup of tea. Given Jim's profession, I can see why this would be intriguing, but it's just goes against the tone of the show's premise. 

@SAPOUNOPERA Part of the problem with the premise was that the characters that were heavily outlined in the bible (Merrill, Roger, June Slater, Lily) were not always the ones that jumped off the screen. Jennifer Ashe's Lily is very intriguing and given her trajectory in daytime Ashe could have clearly taken Lily in many different directions, but ABC politics is always cited as the reason Lily's story was discontinued. Roger and Merrill didn't really work. I think the show was more successful using the affair angle with Stacey Donovan and Jack Forbes later when Jack was married to Ava and carrying on behind her back. Young, Catholic Stacey wondering how she became the type of girl who would sleep with a married man came off as more sympathetic than Merrill Vochek's blaise view of love and marriage. Shana's independent career woman was a more palatable character because Jim was only cheating with her on God not some alcoholic housewife.

Susan Walters' Lorna emerging as a central character was a smart move, though her more ambigious anti-heroine was more santized with Parker O'Hara and emerged as a traditional heroine. A grave mistake. Similarly, Christopher Marcantel's cheeky and conniving Curtis was shifted into more story, but never to the level he should have risen to. It probably would have made things too neat, but an Ava / Curtis / Stacey / Jack situation where Curtis and Stacey were either involved or very much unlikely friends would have been something I felt that could have been pursued further. To me, Dane, Shana, Ava, and Gwyn were all great additions that gave the show a bolt of energy that was very much absent in the original canvas. They were much needed catalysts for plot movement that was rarely occuring in those early episodes. 

Of the characters absent at this point that I would have liked to see around still from the original structure would be Doug and Merrill, but both probably in more supporting roles than anything else. Billy doesn't appeal to me. Roger's death opened up story and his inevitable return would have caused more ripples in the canvas. The Slater story had a beginning, middle, and end. I think exploring the Slater women forging ahead after years of abuse would have been a positive message to send, but I think allowing Lily should have returned in January 1986 right before both Jack and Stacey and Curtis and Ava married as a potential third leg to both relationships. 

[Sapounopera]

I agree with everything you said. I guess it is the tone change that really bothered me. The Keith/Jonathan story and Dolly's daughter drama was a little bit too much.

Roger, Original Ann, Doug, Merrill, Lily were all gone too soon. However I understand that Ava, Shana, Dane, Gwyneth and Trisha helped the show "wake up".  

[dc11786]

@SAPOUNOPERA I actually don't disagree on the tonal issues with the stories you mentioned. Hunter Belden convincing Dolly Jones that her daughter had been adopted out to child pornagraphers has to be one of the most tasteless stories told. The Jonathan/Keith story just wasn't the kind of story that worked for a show like "Loving" as initially conceived. I imagine it was suppose to be a form of spiritual successor to the dark, gloomy Slater family drama that had opened the show's first year, but I don't think it worked. Possibly, the show may have thought the same of Hunter Belden's and Alan Howard's stories. 

Recently, I've begun to wonder if the show was planning on recasting Merrill Vochek in the summer of 1984. After Doug Donovan marries Edy, Doug goes off to California to turn his book into a television series. He ends up getting a co-writer, Stephanie, a journalist who was interested in developing a story based on the Van Ark murder. Stephanie appears to be a potential love interest for Doug. it would have made sense if that journalist was in fact Merrill, working with Doug on the series while also actively working on a case that would have revealed Doug's wife to be a liar. I'm thinking that someone nixed the Merrill return and instead developed the Stephanie character. 

I'm curious if the plan was to keep Roger longterm after Shearin departed. John Shearin's last appearance is at the end of his first 13-week cycle. Peter Brown starts in September 1983 with a four month contract (this was stated in the press) before being written out in January 1984. Roger doesn't die until March/April when the show reintroduces Ann in the form of Callan White. It's a shame that Merrill wasn't given the moment to grieve Roger as I think that would have been a nice beat to play. Anyway, the bigger crime wasn't writing out Roger, but not bringing him back at some point to cause some havoc.

 

[Forever8]

Another episode from 1985 

 

[dc11786]

These 1985 episodes have been great fun. 

I'm not a fan of the Jonathan storyline, but it's well produced. I'm a bit more ambivalent to the 1990s replay with Gilbert and Jeremy retelling the story. With that in mind though, I think Nixon wanted to try and recapture the gothic understones. It only sorta works in my opinion.

I am constantly thinking of different ways the show could have told different stories. In one of my latest alternate timelines, I maintain the gothic tone by bringing in Rita Mae and Billy Bristow much later, after the Slater story had reached its initial conclusion. In my revised version, I went with a revised version of "Cat on a Hot Tin Roof." Billy Bristow is Billy Rescott, one of Kate's boys who finally made it out of Corinth on a football scholarship only to end up in a car accidnet with his best friend leaving Billy Rescott physically disfigured. Rita Mae was the social climbing wife who convinces Billy to buy the Slater house because it's a beautiful house below market value because no one in Corinth wants to own the house where a murder happened. Rita Mae would hire Forbes Construction to do some remodeling to spruce the place up, but also so there would be a deluge of young men in and out of the house. Billy would end up working on his memoirs with Doug Donovan, who in my version almost 100% of the time is gay. Billy would soften over time as Doug pushed him to accept that he is not the monster he has made himself out to be, with Merrill Vochek in the background determined to get a scope on the accident the ruined Billy's career and took the life of Billy's friend and lover. I'd probably have Mike Donovan develop a friendship with Billy, or rekindle if they played high school football together, and let Mike learn the truth after bedding down with Rita Mae.  Given the climate of ABC daytime of the 1980s, I mean even today, this would be unlikely but I still like to dream. 

In real time 1985, I think the Stacey / Jack story is strong foundational, but the dialogue could be crisper. I get that the posh Aldens would be scandalized by Jack and Stacey's affair, but Clay is still missing at this point and Cabot's son-in-law has stolen the company from him during a medical crisis. A messy divorce and custody battle seems pretty tame by comparison. I would like to see them lean in more to the Donovan's faith. I know they've already done this before, but the scandal stuff seems a bit much at times. I do root for Stacey and Jack even in the material as it is presented. 

I also really like Dane and Gwyn. It's a shame they were never able to keep Anthony Herrera around too long or never thought to recast the character. Dane is the kind of Gatsby-esque insider/outsider that is needed to keep the Aldens on their toes and give them someone to show an united front against. I like how they've positioned the two affair storylines with Ann at the center of one and inline to react poorly to the other based on her own experiences. 

The reporter blindsiding Lorna in an interview is replayed in a few months (November 1985) when Christy Conners (Lois Robbins) asks Lorna about Linc Beecham's wife. I would have linked the Beechams and Rita Mae. Not that they had to be related, but maybe Rita Mae grew up in the same town. It would have given the Beechams a bit more ties to Corinth. It's very interesting to see Rita Mae free of Billy. 

Sheri deciding she wants to keep the baby is just great. I love it. Ava is such a selfish, self involved individual. I don't think I realized they had made Tug and Jack friends. 

Here's to hoping for a few more to pop up. 

[dc11786]

I've finished watching "Tribes" this summer. Mary Ryan Munisteri definitely mimicked the style of storytelling for the youth stories on "Loving" in the tailend of 1991 into early 1992. The drug dealer who had been supplying Matt Ford ended up in the band with Matt and the others with Ally eventually flirting with one of the other band members. This was a replay of the Matt Kubiak / Melinda Cox / Billy Pressfield situation with Jojo (the show's resident bad boy) being brought into the band as well. Similarly, the situation with Ally Rescott becoming emotionally attached to Giff Bowman while her parents marriage broke up is very similar to Stacey Cox's relationship with her science teacher Mr. Stevens. Most of this though played out after Munisteri departed. I would bet the original plan was for the third leg of the Ally / Matt story was to be Revel Bowman, Giff's son who has been mentioned around Christmas. Actually, I am almost positive now that Addie Walsh used whatever storybible had written for the first part of 1992 to wrap up the stories while she built up the canvas she wanted. 

The social issue stories were relevant to both series. I think Matt overdosing on heroine is one of the most dramatic moments in the show's history and shocking given how short a run the character had on the show. Even the presentation of Matt's story, being accused of a rape committed by his stepfather, is a storytelling style that was popular on "Tribes" where the kids stories were reactionary to what their parents were doing. Ally was similar in that most of her story was in reaction to her parents divorce. 

 

[NothinButAttitude]

@Kane, I am so glad that I stumbled into this thread and just so happened to see your WordPress page for Loving. *chef's kiss*

 

I am having the time of my life reading the history of this show. 

[Joseph]

I just loved a great article on Marland's Pet Actors who followed him from one soap to the Next, it Mentioned That Lily was Originally Slated to be an Incest Victim by her Father, The story was forbidden by the Network and The characters Dropped, Marland Ultimately Did The Storyline With Angel Lange on ATWT

[Vee]

No, Lily was a victim of incest by her father and the story happened onscreen. The characters were all dropped after because of its content and because ABC was promoting "Something About Amelia". Folks need to read more.

Edited September 7, 2022 by Vee

[Joseph]

Humm then he did it twice? Because I've just watched a couple of 1991 ATWT Episodes and Angel was there giving her testimony about her father's Abuse, the character sounds fascinatingly complicated, I wonder if she could've been a DID Victim as well, if Marland Stayed on I mean

[Sapounopera]

Lily also suffered from DID 

[dc11786]

Marland actually did it three times. He originally told the incest story on "A New Day in Eden" with Emmett and Cynthia Clayborn. Cynthia was played by Britt Heflin who ended up playing Lily Slater #2 on "Loving."

Nixon also retold the story with Ceara Connor on "All My Children." Based on the research in the "Loving" bible, I suspect that Nixon pitched Palmer and Nina Cortlandt as an incestuous relationship. Her notes state that any relationship that left the child feeling uncomfortable could be deemed incest. 

When Addie Walsh and Laurie McCarthy were writing "Loving," Stephanie Brewster has a memory of her mother Deborah accusing Malcolm Brewster, Stephanie's father and Deborah's soon to be ex-husband, of having unnatural feelings for Steffi, which led to Malcolm cutting himself out of Steffi and Deborah's lives. 

Back in 1984, not only was the Slater story killed by the network, it was towards the start of a new contract cycle in January, 1984. Despite the credo of not mentioning the story, June Slater returns for one more episode at the end of March 1984, probably with Ann Williams still under contract, revealing that Lily's condition had deteriorated and that Jack Forbes needed to move on. 

[dc11786]

Another May 1985 episode:

Some nice use of music that shows why "Loving" would have been hard to rerun. The music sting at the start of the episode is fairly compelling when Ava is knocking on Stacey's door while Stacey has a panic attack on the other side since she and Jack have just finished up in her bed. I know "Loving" had a tendency to use more popular musical scores from film and other television series. Does anyone recognize this one?

Dane and Gwyn romping around in the hotel room to "Smooth Operator" is pure 80s gold only to be topped by the lost episode of "Paper Dolls" that seems to play out at the end of the episode with Lorna hopping to Madonna's "Material Girl" while men and women clad in dayglo outfits prance about. 

In terms of actual dramatic material, Jack lying to Stacey about Ava's reaction should come back to bite him. Ava and Ann's conversation about a husband's infidelity would have been much richer if they leaned a bit more into the history. Dane and Gwyn's affair is the obvious subtext to Ann's remarks to Ava, but I would hope that at some point it is acknowledged (or has been) that this was Ann's issue in her marriage to Roger as well.