Loving/The City Discussion Thread

[Vee]

Great to see this. I've always been intrigued by how this potential pairing came into the mix - I think dc has said Guza and Taggert(?) brought it up but Agnes dropped it for Trucker and Dinah Lee? Tyler and Collins were very hot together, but this was very bold for the time with the show's leading supercouple male and a Black woman (even if she was a longtime AMC star), and probably even bolder today sadly.

[DRW50]

The sad part is I think Angie floats around for a long time after that pairing is abandoned. 

I also saw this clip. I never knew there was another plane crash with Buck in 1993 before the more famous in 1994. Bizarre. Buck was clearly a real survivor. The most interesting part of this is how Gwyn comes off as, frankly, nuts. Another unintended hint of what was to come.

 

[Sapounopera]

Angie is such a great character, Loving was so lucky to have Debbi Morgan.

Perhaps if they brought back Jesse instead of Jacob, if they built a strong African American unit around them, if they had brought some City elements to Loving earlier...

Who was the writer who got the show better than the others?

[dc11786]

Debbi Morgan arrived in Corinth as Angie in August, 1993 when Robert Guza and Millee Taggert were still writing the show. I never go the sense that they knew what to do with Angie. I believe the show was intending to bring back some past characters in celebration of the show's tenth anniversary (hence Curtis and Alex's returns), but I wonder what the circumstances were that shifted Angie to "Loving." Angie does end up spending most of her scenes with Trucker as the story with Tess, Curtis, Buck, and Kuwait wasn't really well received. Trucker and Tess had initially appeared as end game, but, by the time Angie arrived, it was clear that Tess was going to be between Clay and Curtis. 

Part of the issue was that there was no real build to Angie. Part of the issue was Angie was connected with people who were the most disconnected from the canvas. The show had never had much of a medical presence so her work at the hospital wasn't going to initial build much story. Angie was involved in Shana's pregnancy and that kinda of created an Angie-Shana friendship, but Shana was always two steps away from being let go. Similarly, Jeremy, while having more of a setpiece to work with in terms of the college, felt very forced into the series. Personally, I would have, at the very least, given Angie an office at 35 Maple Street which would have kept her in the thick of things with the college kids. Also, it would have given her access to Kate Rescott, which I think might have been a nice friendship. 

Trucker asks Angie out on a date in like September or October 1993. I cannot remember if its under Nixon or Guza/Taggert. Whenever it is, Angie turns him down and the story is dropped. In late October, Charles Harrison is introduced as Alex's FBI buddy during the someone is targetting the Aldens plot, but the initial Charles/Angie stuff is initially about Charles' past with the dead fiancee and the Charles/Frankie relationship which was clearly recycled Trucker/Frankie kind of material. Angie is weaved into the social stories... she ends up suspecting Steffi's eating disorder in January and she has some play in the Patti may have developmental issues. I don't think it's really til February/March 1994 that they start building the HIV storyline for Angie. The initial strand is Angie and Charles talking about escalating their relationship and the need for protection living in the era of AIDS. In April, Angie ends up being stabbed by a syringe that had been used on a heavy intravenous drug user and the patient refuses to submit to an HIV test. This plays out briefly because then things shift into the aplastic anemia stuff requiring the bone marrow transplant that begins with Angie being kidnapped by Janie's boyfriend in Boston. 

The stuff with the plane crash I believe was very early in Nixon's run before she dropped Gwyn / Buck.

I think when it comes to writers, I'm not sure there is one that ever made it all come together to a point that gave the show a distinctive original tone that the show was known for. Almost every writer made a significant contribution, but they just never completely pulled it together long enough (mostly because they were never given time) to do so. 

The writers who were given the most time at the show were Millee Taggert (with Tom King from September 1988-May 1991, solo from May to August 1991, and with Robert Guza from January to September 1993) and Addie Walsh (from January 1992 to Januarry 1993 and August 1994 until early spring 1995).

Taggert and King had been working on sitcoms and immediately embedded a sense of humor into the show, which became a trademark of the series. They were also the ones who introduced Trucker McKenzie and the real Clay Alden while starting the Who's the Daddy? story with Stacey and cousins Jack Forbes and Rick Alden. Some of the issues relate to the executive producer situation. Joe Stuart's toxic misogyny had its impact on the set leading to Joe Hardy arriving and wanting to make the show more in line with the big adventure stories of "General Hospital." The spy stuff with Alex and Clay and Jelka is bad. I still confuse the unmemorable Jolie and Juliette. The biggest flaw though in this era is the failure to develop a strong youth storyline. In theory, with Trucker and Trisha as the show's big couple, centering around their siblings should have been a nice way to keep Trucker and Trisha in the thick of things without needing to keep them front and center. The problem was that Curtis was the older brother and to make Rocky and Curtis the youth story, you had to ignore all the history that came before it with Curtis. Also, because Curtis had gone through so many iterations prior to Stan Albers arrival, there is no sense of character. Is he a good guy or a bad guy? This inability to pin down a sense of who Curtis was at his core haunts the show until its end.   

The problem I have is it is all so generic and flavorless in big story for so much of the initial stretch (1988-1990) until Jacqueline Babbin comes in. Babbin wanted the show to be more of a mini "All My Children" and was big on reestablishing Corinth as a town of haves and have nots. Under Babbin, there was a more cohesive sense of community with the recentering of the havenots around Kate's boarding house with Rocky, Rio, Abril, and Monty. Under Babbin, I believe we see the return of Patrick and Rose Donovan after a several year hiatus and Ilene Kristen's Norma Gilpin is brought into the fold. The story regarding Abril's baby (she was pregnant by Clay, giving her baby to Trucker and Trisha, and befriending Carly who was involved with Clay) is pretty solid and had the bones to go on for a long time. Pairing that with the Carly, Paul, and Ava triangle while also reuniting Gwyn and Dane Hammond had the potential for a rich place. 

Fran Sears replaces Jackie Babbin after a year as Babbin only agreed to give Nixon and ABC a specific amount of time before returning to writing her murder mystery novels. In the final months of Taggert, she introduced several significant characters (Ally Rescott, Matt Ford, and Dinahlee Mayberry). Ally and Matt's romance was very well received. Eric Woodall was phenomenal. Laura Sisk Wright was green but showed the potential that made Ally a long running character. Jessica Collins Dinah was just electric. 

The fatal flaw during Mary Ryan Munisteri's run is her approach to Trucker and Trisha, which was to naturally bring to the service the differences in their upbringings. As a natural extension of the have and have not angle, this makes sense, but Trisha comes off as boorish and Trucker comes off as stubborn and gullible. Making these characters messy gave them long term internal issues to deal with, but this was a turn off to the audience. I enjoy them, but I have never been a huge Trisha/Trucker fan. 

Fran Sears had a very clear vision to continue the haves / have nots angle but to bring Alden University back into focus. Sears introduced Pins, the bowling alley which was such a uniquely "Loving" set as well as the Tides, which was initially this beautifully rustic hunting lodge with a hint of gothic mystery. Giff's studio at the university is very nicely lit with a large sky light. Ava is working at Checkers, a theme restaurant in line with the type of establishments popping up in the 1990s. Sears sense of color was very vibrant, but also soft and romantic. 

Ryan Munisteri is replaced by Addie Walsh who is most remembered as the one who spearheaded the college revamp because under her pen we saw the introduction of Cooper Alden, Kent Winslow, Staige Prince, Casey Bowman, and Hannah Mayberry. Casey was a character that was proposed by Mary Ryan Munisteri as she had introduced Giff. Ryan Munisteri had utilized an art space in 1990 on "Tribes" and had a triangle between two friends in a band just as Munisteri seemed to be doing with Revel, Ally, and Matt except Walsh held back on introducing Revel and instead introduced a minor character named James. It would seem that Walsh may have cherry picked from Munisteri's long story while developing the college set. Hannah may have been a Munisteri suggestion as her arrival precedes the rest by two months in early February 1992. Cooper, by all accounts, is all Walsh. His introduction story with the dead parents is something that Walsh had done the previous year when she was head writing the French soap opera "Riviera." The wealthy de Courcey family were housing two orphaned teenaged cousis of the main set. Kent and Staige were very thinly written as a part of the Greek system set that was quickly abandoned. 

Besides the intro of the young people, Walsh's run is pretty heavy on the Clay / Dinahlee pairing which didn't work. The disillusioned romantic version of Clay that returned from Hollywood paired with a very humbled Dinahlee did no favors to either character. If the origins hadn't been during Noelle Beck's second maternity leave, it may have worked out better, but the focus on Clay's new parentage was a shift that destabilized most of the canvas. It tied into the fairly unmemorable Tides ghost story. Giff going off the deep end was also dumb. Gwyn joined Shana in the land of Alden women who had no sense of story or purpose. Jack's death and the Clay and Stacey story didn't suit the original actors involved. Dennis Parlato gave Clay more of a convincing menace than Larkin Malloy did.

Walsh plays the class conflict in much broader terms. Initially, its the Greek system with the wealthy Kent and Staige with poor Ally Rescott representing the new class system of Corinth. Walsh turns Munisteri's regal, patrician Isabelle Alden played by Celeste Holm into a poor man's Phoebe Wallingford making Patricia Barry's Isabelle into a classist buffoon who is determined to keep them "damn Mayberry girls" away from her Alden boys. Walsh has Isabelle driven by a need to maintain power by securing her son Clay's role in the Alden family despite being the product of an affair she had with stablehand Tim Sullivan. It takes a richly complex part of the canvas and waters it down to the point where you would prefer it just not be a thing. 

To be fair to Walsh, her run was also known for being paired with Haidee Granger, who from most accounts, was not the show's strongest executive producer. On the heels of Sears, Granger's "Loving" seemed very disjointed. Granger had previously worked on British television and I think there may have been an attempt to take a very different approach by deemphasizing long story. Characters materialize and become contract without having much sense of development (Armand Rosario and Leo Burnell). Her run is remembered positively for the crossover with "All My Children" where Carter Jones went after Dinahlee. On the heels of Giff kidnapping Trisha and taking her to the belfry, it was too much. Giff died around September 30 and the Carter Jones saga was most of October leading into sweeps. 

The final issue within the Walsh / Granger era is the introduction of Jean Le Clerc's Jeremy Hunter from Pine Valley. Jeremy had appeared the previous year in an arc with his wife Ceara (played by Genie Francis) as she had fled Pine Valley to try and work through her feelings after uncovering that she had sexually abused as a child. The initial arc (under Munisteri and Sears) was brilliant as it enhanced the Matt / Ally story and also gave Trisha a shoulder to cry on during the Dinahlee/Trucker affair. The issue was that Jeremy's role in 1991 was very minimal. In 1992, Jeremy is brought on for Stacey after the decision was made to dump Trucker/Stacey. It would have made more story sense to pursue Jeremy and Trisha, but with Noelle Beck on the edge of leaving, maybe they figured it would be better to go another direction. Anyway, Walsh's run ends pretty much in autopilot mode but sets up a decent situation with Ally's pregnancy to propel the younger set forward. Louie Slavinski's prostate cancer diagnosis was also set in motion in Walsh's final days. 

Tonally, Walsh downplays the trademark comedy in order to enhance the emotional resonance of the work. Munisteri and Taggert were both able to build strong emotional sequences, but they had script writers who made those scenes memorable. Walsh's work falls flat with the script writing team in place. In terms of plotting, Walsh is strong. Something is always happening it just might not last a long time.  

When Taggert and Guza arrive, there is an immediate turn around. They focus the show around three major story threads: (1) Shana deciding she wants a baby and wants Ava's boyfriend Leo to be the father, (2) a haunted Curtis returning to Corinth and his pairing with his father's lover Dinahlee, and (3) Casey and Ally's romance being threatened by Cooper's role as the father of Ally's baby. From there, other stories spin off. The introduction of Amelia Heinle as Stephanie Brewster in January 1993 marks the final member of the quad that "Loving" was remembered for. Guza and Taggert's Steffi is an emotionally manipulative party girl who uses that exterior to hide the deep loneliness she feels growing up with a mother who is out of touch with reality. The Brewsters of Corinth, like the Brewsters of Point Claire, are old money who are now broke but desperate to maintain the facade that they are still able to maintain a lifestyle that keeps them in the upper echelons of Corinth society. Steffi is paid by Isabelle to keep Casey occupied so that Cooper and Ally can marry with the Alden heir being legitimate. The concept of Steffi is not new to "Loving." This was the original concept for Staige Prince, but there was no development into her character and Eden Atwood was very broad in her performance. There was also a brief character Mia who seemed set to fill a similar role, but Mia was ditched when Walsh exited. 

While Steffi certainly reinstills a sense of social class in Corinth, Taggert and Guza's have nots are not as strong as as Taggert's last run. Tess is living at the boarding house. Buck comes on as an opportunist like Tess. Similarly, Dinahlee lives above her bowling alley, but she is still a small business owner. Taggert and Guza keep Isabelle on the fringes of the story which is probably best given what Isabelle had become. The only positive working class character I can recall being added was the waitress that helps Trisha after her accident. Robert Huston and his girlfriend Dolly are grifters. Tess is suppose to be a grifter with a heart of gold. Angie and Frankie are presented as dealing with more working class issues (gangs in California), but it isn't really resonating because of Angie's position as a doctor.  

The final days of Trisha in Corinth are marked by the arrival of Trucker's unknown half-brother Buck Huston, who is involved in a scheme with Tess Wilder to bilk Trucker out of Trisha's inheritance. Tess and Buck turn out to involved in Curtis' chilling experience in Kuwait. The Kuwait story is a real mark on a very positive era. Patrick Johnson is convincing as a soldier, but not as an Alden. Michael Lord was more convincing as Alden, but less as a soldier. Lord had a tendency to overplay Curtis, while Johnson underplayed him. Tess seems to be a bit of Taggert's early intentions for Dinahlee as the scheming nanny and Guza's penchant for manipulative blond conwomen like Summer Holloway. If a lesser actress had been in the role, Tess would have departed at the time of Nixon's arrival. 

There is a strong sense of sexuality to Guza and Taggert's loving. Shana's insemination plot is suppose to be a no-strings attached sexual encounter that is clearly complicated by the emotional intimacy that is shared by two people who are having a child together. Steffi is a sex positive character who has no problem coaxing Cooper into the Arabian Nights window display at Burnell's and proceeds to publicly undress him as foreplay in front of a group of shoppers and Ava. Gwyn's bubble bath with Buck seems to push the boundaries as does a sequence where Dinalee and Curtis are getting handsy under the table at L'Auberge waiting for the Aldens to join them. Also, proving that sex has no age, Kate's attempts to reassure a post-operative Louis that she still wants to be intimate with him are very touching and end with Kate and Louis in their bedroom. The return of a passionate Ava leaves her dangling between Leo and Jeremy for much of the year before suggesting that Alex Masters will also be thrown into the mix. 

Angie and Frankie Hubbard's introduction to Corinth gives "Loving" its first major African American characters. Minor characters like Egypt and Kate's pal Minnie Madden, police chief Art Hindman, and Hindman's kids Dave and Tally all remained fairly secondary. Frankie's brashness is refreshing and the interaction between Frankie and Steffi promised to revisit the idea of playgirl socialite Lorna Forbes dating African American Ron Turner's son. 

The downside of this time is Curtis Alden. Trying to refocus the canvas on Curtis with Trisha departing the canvas was a brilliant idea. Casting was sloppy as already discussed. I like Michael Lord. If he reigned the character in a bit, I think I would have liked where his Curtis was going though I have to wonder if his over the top antics as Curtis didn't inspire Nixon to push Curtis over the edge and destabilize his mental health. Besides casting, the story with Tess and Buck was time consuming. By the time Trucker and Buck's father is introduced, even Guza and Taggert realize this was too much and wrap the story up and start sending everyone in different directions. 

Guza and Taggert may be the ones to reach the closest to the true potential of "Loving." 

Nixon's return in September 1993 promised to continue the greatness of the previous year, but Nixon really shifted things in her own direction. Her period, while definitely enjoyable, is probably one of the roughest transitions only to be surpassed by going from Munisteri to Walsh while Walsh is trying to establish the college set. Nixon blows up the Jeremy / Ava / Leo / Shana story which had constantly found ways to keep everyone in the same orbit in favor of downplaying the business angle (Leo defaulted on his loan that Shana gave him in exchange for him fathering her child leaving Shana as owner of Burnell's) and focused on Patti's developmental issues while never fully committing to whether or not she had any issues. The dead Kuwait story was revived with a very alive Dante Partou meaning that the only Middle Eastern character on the show was a Stefano Dimera-esque super villain. 

Nixon rids herself of the college campus in short order. By November, Casey runs out of money so he drops out of school and Steffi gets a modelling offer so she leaves college. By January, Tess has roped Jeremy into a partnership at the ad agency. 35 Maple Street disappears. In its place, Nixon establishes the ad agency, which became a critical piece of the final years of "Loving" and the short run of "The City." The ad agency harkened back to one of Nixon's original goals for the series by centering the show on a young female lead in the media (Merrill Vochek). The ad agency ends up being an excellent setpiece and makes the loss of the college palatable. 

Class distinctions are downplayed, but subtle. Trucker and Dinahlee reuniting at the video rental store definitely reminds the audience that these two may have been in the Alden orbit, but neither truly fit in there. It's hard to imagine Isabelle Alden in the video store to return her copy of "A Summer Place." While Casey is presented as a struggling artist, his artist loft space is huge. A beautiful set but the smaller repurposed apartment that the Bowmans had shared (and I'm pretty sure dated back to the early/mid 1980s) was more reflective of how Casey should have been living given his source of income. The Donovan home remains the epitome of working class comfort with Angie's home matching that energy with a prominent use of African art and other decorations. The bike shop, introduced by Walsh, remains as the central workplace for working class men like brothers Trucker and Buck. Robert Lupone's seedy loan shark is less memorable than his run several years earlier under Munisteri as Michael Rescott's alcoholic musician father. 

Where Nixon excells is in the story and the couples. The Clay / Steffi pairing should by no means work, but it does. Steffi's daddy issues, Clay's daughter issues, the potential rivalry between younger and older alpha Alden male, and just Dennis Parlato and Amelia Heinle's understanding of their characters make the story engaging. Nancy Addison Altman's addition as Deborah gives Steffi a very tangible reason for the audience to sympathize with her. And brava to Altman for not fearing to play the ugliness of Deborah. Steffi's bulimia is a very compelling arc for the character. Steffi's friendship with Tess enhances both characters. 

In another case of pairings that shouldn't work, but do, Tess and Cooper help to round out the new quad. Cooper going after the blond former nanny plays on his trauma. Tess, while not completely aware of Cooper's story, senses enough that she knows what they are doing is wrong and knows that it won't last. The decision to reveal that Tess had been anorexic in the past during her modeling days as well as at the start of her marriage to Dante was a nice way to connect Tess and Steffi's stories. 

A bit lost in the shuffle though is Casey and Ally, who after Cooper is revealed to be a louse are going to finally get their happily ever after. The problem is happy endings are not the fodder of great soap opera so they flounder a bit. Ally's choice to be a stay at home mom is compelling, but not a rich source of drama. Casey's desire to provide his family with a home while affluent Cooper is able to provide Tyler with everything is a great source of strain on Casey and Ally's marriage. 

Buck and Stacey are wonderful together. Tying Buck to other parts of the canvas was smart. Utilizing him as Egypt's partner in crime allowed us to see another side of Buck and confirmed that Buck's stories would always be about how his past would come back to haunt him as the man he is now. Stacey is less active in this period, which is disappointing. I did appreciate her being pulled into Curtis' orbit towards the end of Nixon's run and would have loved to see where that would have gone. I would have liked to see Stacey reacting to Janie. 

Janie was such a brilliant addition to the show. An African American Ava Rescott, the young woman came on the scene with such a presence and such a personality. She was one of Angie's kidnappers who Angie learned was actually in an abusive relationship with the man holding Angie hostage. The very hurt Janie had a tendency to lash out at others to prevent them from ever causing her any pain again. Janie was a character who was just allowed to travel the canvas. Frankie liked her, Angie wanted to help her, Cooper wanted to know what she knew about Clay's secret, Gwyn mothered her, and she was Buck's daughter. The character had the ability to enter any scene and add some energy that wasn't there. 

The main crux of the Nixon run though was the Curtis / Trucker / Dinahlee story. This story was a twist on the two friends loving them the same woman plot by throwing in Curtis' PTSD as well as the lingering question of Trisha's fate. The highlight of this to me is Curtis pretending Trisha is still alive to keep Trucker and Dinahlee apart because, in the end, Curtis was right even if his intentions were malicious. Dinahlee had well been established as a lead heroine at this point so this was probably her strongest period in that position stuck between loving Trucker and wanting to save Curtis from himself. 

Nixon's departure after almost a year in August 1994 signaled a significant shift in the canvas. The lightheartedness of the show was definitely replaced with a stronger sense of drama with a very somber tone. Laurie McCarthy and Addie Walsh's run was much more effective than Walsh's first, but Walsh and McCarthy had been working with Nixon for a better part of a year. Though they immediately dropped potentially interesting elements of the canvas (Janie is quickly killed in a plane crash and Ava gaining control of AE is quickly squashed) while enhancing other neglected parts of the canvas. 

Casey's mental health crisis leading to drug overuse and addiction is compelling material. Steffi and Cooper's tragic romance culminating in Clay's deception by having Steffi believing that her mother and boyfriend are having an affair is heart breaking material leading to a Steffi's flashbacks of her mother accusing her father of having incestuous feelings for her. Casey and Steffi reconnecting during this period is a powerful use of their history and gives the show a chance to play a different beat. 

Walsh and McCarthy revive the gothic tone with the introduction of Gilbert. Masquerading as Jeremy is not as compelling as it is when Gilbert kidnaps Ava and Sandy bringing them to the church. The church set is evocative of the mood the show is looking to capture. Marian Seldes as Gilbert's kidnapper/"mother" brings the right mix of menace and concern to the part. The resolution of that story, Alex shooting an unarmed Gilbert, had the potential to set in motion some dramatic material. 

Trucker and Dinahlee and Buck and Stacey both fall into the story abyss during this period. Dinahlee is recast with Elizabeth Mitchell when Jessica Collins' contract is up. Mitchell is given a heavy story to play off the bat; Dinahlee loses her baby and is badly hurt requiring her to receive physical therapy. Buck and Stacey just struggle to find anything before Buck clearly just becomes Tess' himbo. 

The stark tone of the show is jarring at first, but is mostly manageable until it isn't. Clay's hit and run is probably the last strong story the show tells before going into yet another major direction. 

I've already gone on too long and my feelings about Essensten and Harmon Brown are too clouded by the damage they did.  

[Forever8]

I always love reading your in-depth analysis about Loving. I also like your ideas especially about having Angie get an office at 35 Maple. I could definitely see her being the go-to doctor to the young adults on canvas.

[Sapounopera]

I always enjoy reading your thoughts on Loving.

It looks as though Stan Albers would fit better as a new Alden son, while Ron Nummi's Rick and his entire story with Stacey screamed Curtis.

I don't remember anything about Lorna and a black boy.

Angie is a fascinating character, but perhaps she was wasted on a show obsessed with the endless Alden drama (that wasn't even working, ratings wise). 

[dc11786]

The arrival of Angie and Charles and the return of Alex really impacted the nature of storytelling on "Loving." I do like Agnes Nixon's 1993-1994 run, but it is very heavy on police and hospital stories when they hadn't been before. It shifted the tone. Angie at 35 Maple Street would have kept her in the thick of the college story. She was already involved in Steffi's bulimia storyline.

Ron Nummi would have been a great Curtis. Stan Albers was a workable actor, but I never get any sense of what direction they want to go with Curtis. It's almost as if they looked at Marcantel's snarky Curtis and Moses' nice guy Curtis and tried to settle on a middle ground. It just didn't work. 

In the original story bible for "Loving," Lorna was paired with Jeff Turner, Jack's best friend and the son of Dr. Ron Turner, who had been a psychologist who was involved in treating both Lily's DID and Mike's PTSD. Jeff and Lorna would have married and divorced without much fanfare. It was going to be an interracial relationship were the race differences were downplayed. Lorna would eventually cause problems for Doug, but I don't think it was made clear if that would be before, during, or after her marriage. ABC most likely got skittish. Jeff was retooled and the character became Tony Perilli. 

Angie was another example of collapse of the social class structure of the prior years. For the second act of the college revamp, Addie Walsh introduced four new contract characters: Staige Prince, Kent Winslow, Cooper Alden, and Casey Bowman. To make space, characters had to go. Walsh made the decision to eliminate the Carly / Paul story which eliminated a large part of the show's working class contigent between Carly, Paul, and Flynn being shuffled off the canvas. Angie ended up in pseudo-working class group with Leo (who owned a department store), Shana (a lawyer), Stacey (a novelist and college professor), Dinahlee (a small business owner), Trucker (another small business own), Tess (once married to a millionaire), and Buck. I don't get a sense they had story for Angie. The pairing with Trucker was interesting, but I don't know what the thoughts would have been long term. 

 

[Forever8]

It seemed Loving's college revamp with the young adults also suffered from what soaps often do, which is quickly move the young adult set into more adult stories by having characters marry and have children and start working in the corporate field without any experience or, on the rare occasion, graduate from school off screen.

They should've had Janie live at Kate's boarding house; I could see her bonding with her since she would've probably reminded her of a young Ava which could've opened up more of the working-class section of the show.

[Sapounopera]

Which Loving characters (or actors) do you consider the show's missed opportunities? 

Darnell and Debbi. They were the show' big chance to turn things around.

Janie was such a vibrant character, there was no reason to kill her off.

Most of Clay's stories (minus the Alex Masters nonsense) could have been given to Roger Forbes.

Bryan Cranston's Doug was a really nice guy, played by a very good actor.

Chris Marcantel's and Linden Ashby were both great as Curtis. The Lotty Bates story made Curtis a good guy and he left after his happy ending. He later returned as a young boy. Both actors could have played parts of the Rick Alden stories.

Jackie Courtney! She was wasted on Diane Winston. (She would make a great Ann)

Shannon Eubanks left way too soon. 

 

Edited November 7, 2022 by SAPOUNOPERA

[j swift]

I would suggest that throughout its history Loving was missing a well-cast/well-written male antagonist and that was its true missed opportunity.

If you think about other ABC soaps like AMC and OLTL they both had a female antagonist (Erica and Dorian, for example) who like Ava were mostly concerned with establishing status and economic stability, and love always came second.  Which is why when they found a romantic partner it was so enthralling because they were able to set aside their selfish desires for the sake of love.

The male antagonists (Adam and Asa) were usually motivated by control and power.  They wanted to run the town and they needed a female partner to serve as their moral guide.

Curtis, Rick Alden, Clay, and Dane were all cast as male antagonists, but there was very little depth of character or motive.  Perhaps, it was because of the thirty minute structure, the frequent change in writing staff, or desperation for higher ratings, but the show was never able to capture the imagination through the portrayal of the male anti-hero.  I think of Curtis as the perfect example.  From the beginning he was established as a spoiled rich boy whose envy always got in the way of his success.  But, whether it was because he was never in control of his power base, or he was cast against a much more viral romantic hero, he didn't come off as much of a formidable force.   Rick and Dane seemed temporary from the start, neither character was destined for long term status.  Clay vacillated between being a credible power player and borderline insane based on who wrote the character.  So, there was no stable male character to threaten the happiness of the heroic guys, because they all seemed easily dethroned, as soon as they fell out of favor of the senior Aldens.

In the pilot Johnny Forbes seemed to run the town.  He was in control of the businesses and the university.  But, Cabot and his family never seemed to exert the same dominion over the lives of the other citizens of Corinth.

Edited November 8, 2022 by j swift

[dc11786]

The way that "Loving" approached the transition from the college stories to life beyond Alden University was messy. They needed to either keep the fast paced storytelling in the college or switch to the slower paced stories outside of college. Walsh wrote the start of Ally's pregnancy which set in motion the stories that would drive the story away from the university. I don't think that was a bad thing (Ally's pregnancy). I like that Taggert and Guza had Ally try to balance and it all not want to drop out of school. This was interesting. Ally and Cooper marrying based on Isabelle's outdated values and Cooper's manipulative tendencies also wasn't a terrible idea. It was the pacing. Ally and Cooper have the baby and marry in May/June and by August they are separating and in a custody battle. That story should have dragged on for at least a year before Ally and Casey got back together.  

I think the general problem was that Nixon never wanted Alden University to be a central focus. Her "Loving" was a soap set in a college town, not about a college town. There was a significant difference. Nixon is the one who moves the stories away from the campus. Casey drops out to pursue photography and Steffi to pursue modelling. Cooper is in classes (offscreen) but considers quitting. Only Ally, who intends on being a stay at home mom, is still pursuing her degree. Nixon also moves Jeremy away from Alden U and has him working at the ad agency.  

I think with Janie she was never in Corinth that long for anything to matter. Her initial story arc is in Boston and then she arrives in Corinth in late June/early July and is gone by the middle of August. I liked the idea of Janie working at the hospital with Angie, and the suggestion that Janie would have lived at the boarding house. 

This might not be popular, but I don't think Angie should have come over to "Loving." Debbi Morgan was, and still is a strong talent, but I would have introduced her as someone new. "Loving" had a very poor history of introducing characters of color, but it may have been good for the show to expand on what they had. Minnie Madden was fairly popular in her friendship with Kate. I think I would have used Minnie to introduce Morgan's new character, possibly Madden's niece or prodigal daughter returned after many years away. Similarly, I think that the show could have done something with the Hindman family who had been an on-again/off-again recurring fixture for a bit. Ewing could have been Art Hindman's younger brother. I would have intergrated the characters into the main canvas by having Morgan's new character being a law partner for Shana and Ewing being an ambitious, rising politician who would clash with the way Alden University would monopolize Corinth's resources while underpaying in taxes. This would keep him as a thorn in the side of the Aldens. Maybe, he was even a former student of Roger Forbes'.

Regarding the others, Roger should have returned at some point. I think Marland would have brought him back, but I don't think that was going to happen after Marland left the building. 

@j swift Addressed some of the issues with having a Clay, a Curtis, and a Cooper on the campus at the same time. I think, in some ways, Roger could have been a sorta Alex type, the son that Aldens would have wanted, but even that might have been a bit of a stretch. I think a return of Roger would have been good if they were going to play a Roger / Dane rivalry with Roger winning back Jack, but losing Ann to Dane or vice versa. I do see the point about the set up of the Roger / Ann and the Clay / Gwyn marriages being the same: wealthy Americans living overseas while the husband carries on with other women. I think it may have made it a bit more interesting if Clay, like original flavor Ann, had no interest in business. He was more a free thinker and pushed Gwyn into an open marriage and had encouraged Curtis to not be restrained by the conservative sexual mores of a town like Corinth. Maybe, I would have had Clay return and focus on maintaining Alden University rather than going into business.

The Donovans should have been weaved in and out of the story as needed including Mike and Noreen. I think Doug as a reporter gave him the most agency on the canvas, but I think tying him back into the university in the early 1990s would have been interesting when the show was reestablishing AU. As I've stated before, I would have had Doug come to terms with his sexuality and come out as a gay or bisexual man. 

Curtis, despite being on for so many years, was mismanaged for most chunks of time post- Linden Ashby. 

Jackie Courtney as Ann is intriguing. I love the initial concept of Ann with Shannon Eubanks, but I've started to appreciate Callan White's work more that I've seen it. When the writers knew what they wanted Ann to be, Callan was a strong presence. Unfortunately, that was a rarity after Doug Marland walked out. I cannot remember if I've said this before, but I would have brought on Morgan Fairchild as Ann Alden during the 1995 revamp as Dennis Parlato wasn't renewing his contract. I'd also probably have had Roscoe Born play Dane Hammond. 

Dane was a character who should have had longer runs. 

I liked Paul Slavinski, Carly Rescott, and Flynn. 

Matt Ford should have stayed

Giff Bowman didn't need to be a psycho

Lily Slater should have had at least one run in the 1990s. 

Jack's mother's side, the Hendersons, could have been explored a bit further. 

A son of Kate's could have showed up at some point. 

Catherine Hickland should have been Lorna.

[Kane]

Janie/Elise Neal was a real shot in the arm for the show - she clicked with everyone they put her in a scene with and there were so many different directions they could have gone with her. The only thing I didn't like about her story was that the show had her lusting after Buck which, much like the Gilly/Griffin relationship on Guiding Light, was just too far over the ick line.

Writing her out not only wasted all that untapped potential for story, it diminished the resolutions to the stories she was already in (Angie practically disappears between getting the bone marrow transplant and Jacob showing up in early 1995; Frankie gets shoved back to the furthest edge of the backburner until he gets a new love interest, again in early 1995; and Buck finding out that she was his daughter would have been more meaningful if he actually had to deal with her as a person whose feelings about him probably would have been complicated, rather than developing an idealized picture of her and what their relationship could have been after death) and it doesn't make for a very satisfying resolution to the Ava's predictions story because Ava didn't know Janie (Ava is told twice who died - first immediately after the crash, and then later when she gets another visit from Harry to tie up the story and spell out all the resolutions, and both times she's like "Who?").

If the show felt like it had written itself into a corner with the predictions and had to kill someone off, the logical solution would have been to just kill Gilbert at the end of that story.

 

To add to that, by the end of the year Cooper and Ally had started dating and were engaged all over again. The amount of story that Cooper/Ally/Casey were rushed through in 1993 would have played out for a decade on Bill Bell's Y&R.

As a slight aside, I've always thought it was odd that even before Ally became pregnant, Isabelle was pushing for her and Cooper to get together. Her not supporting Cooper's relationship with Hannah, I get (even though Isabelle wasn't always a dragon lady, she was always a snob), but socioeconomically there's not a ton of difference between Ally and Hannah, at least from the lofty vantage point of the Aldens. Isabelle should have been pushing for Cooper to get together with someone like Staige.

[j swift]

When we discuss the lost potential of characters like Angie and Lorna, I am reminded that Stacey was just not that compelling as a main character. 

Guys on soaps like Jack can be dull because the romantic hero is just an archetype who runs around saving damsels, trying to resist his libido, and setting up romantic situations.  But, a character like Stacey needed a lot more exploration to be a surrogate for the audience's fantasies. 

Despite being introduced in college, she had no specific skills, so she couldn't interact with others as a business professional, lawyer, or doctor.  She lacked sex appeal.  She wasn't written as being very funny or charismatic.  And, she didn't fit into any classic exemplars of the time like Meg Ryan or Julia Roberts who were sexy, powerful, and dynamic.  I mean who wants to fantasize about living in your parent's small town home for your entire life? (even though she was inexplicably irresistible to the richest men in Corinth).

So, as the center of the soap, she wasn't a character that I was invested in seeing what happened to her over time.

Edited November 8, 2022 by j swift

[Forever8]

I wonder where they any plans for the Jeffrey D Sams character (Ron Turner Jr.) who was on the show in the early 90's episodes.

[Sapounopera]

Stacey was the Hilary Bauer of the group in the early episodes. I guess that Marland planned to have Jack and Lily as the star-crossed lovers. Once she was written out, Stacey became the love of Jack's life. 

It is interesting that Jack and Lily's story is almost identical to Phillip and Beth's on GL.

Knowing that Marland loved his blue-collar families, I wonder what his long term plans for the Donovans were.