AMC Photo of Zarf as Zoe

[JER Soaps Fan]

Okay, here's why part of this debate amuses me. A lot of my gay rights activist friends always stress that people should do away with labels such as "gay" or "straight." After all, they say, people fall in love with each other's souls. How funny, then, that the debate here hinges on the belief that the Zoe story is discredited because it appears to throw out the whole "body" factor. Intriguing, indeed.

[bellcurve]

No, because he's still not biologically a woman.

Someone on the canvas who is into pre or post-op transsexuals. There are men and women who are into transgender people. But they are NOT(I repeat, NOT) in the gay category.

Elizabeth Hendrickson's stay is supposed to be short-term. I bet Bianca will turn down Maggie for Zoe. UGH!

[Kylie]

I agree to a point, but you have to understand that Bianca to this point, has been a lesbian only when the plot calls for it. She came out for plot reasons', never had any real relationships until Lena, and then that was sidelined for the plot point of raping a lesbian. Then we had Saint Bianca and her love for her rapists baby (NO one take that to mean anything more then that. I adore Miranda, and have been her and Bianca's biggest supporter, just making a point.LOL). Miranda came, Bianca mourned, the BAM limbo, and then the plot point induced BAM love because Eden and Liz were leaving. AMC only wants to play the lesbian card with Bianca when they think it can be used for some sort of shock value. They've never been interested in giving her real love. Letting her have a real relationship. As much as I adored Lianca (OS is one of the few woman, I'd fly over the fence for. ) AMC never planned to make them anything more then a segway to the babyswap.

Why not give Bianca a love who is a woman in all the ways she's supposed to be? Why not do the Zarf storyline with a striaght character. I think that storyline could have made me "gasps" tune in a day or so.

This just feels like plot point drivel that AMC is hoping will save their asses.

[All My Shadows]

Personally, I think a much better way to do this storyline would have been to have a straight male fall for Zoe, and I mean fall in love with her personality, character, mind, etc. Then the truth could come out and then we'd see that play out.

[dragonflies]

Personally I think this sounds great. I'm not going to prejudge it. Look how many people said they'd hate Zarf, and now love him

[leevo64]

Actually they did. To their defense Bianca/Lena was the next big thing until Rayfield and Cascio were ousted (JUST as they were getting good) and McTavish came back, freaked out at the sight of a true lesbian soap couple (which had all the trimmings - romance, sex, lies, deceit, betrayal, all the ingredients for a supercouple). McTavish had no clue what to do with Lena when she saw two lesbians on the show.

[Target Demo]

Bianca has become a stunts & sweeps character. Oh, and a Lavery and Babe fluffer. Now she'll be a Zoe ... fluffer. *ahem*

I have no illusions that Biniks will escape this storyline intact either. She's already been wrecked. (Hey, Binks? Did you see Krystal working at The Miranda Center?) Fer cryin' out loud, man.

I could care less about Zoe. And I'd rather see Binks hang with Myrtle (now that Simone won't be sippin' the spiked lemonade with her anymore *sniff*.)

Barf is not, as McT is wont to point out when it suits her, "relate-able."

Or, this is all just a sick conspiracy to make us actually support BaM. LOL! Wouldn't put it past the old witch; and it just might work.

[alwaysAMC]

Wow! Zoe looks great. I was a little nervous that since Zarf is this eccentric rock star, that when he dressed as Zoe, she too would be a little eccentric - but Zoe actually looks good - very classy and delicate. LOL at the person who said she looked like Babe! I sorta see the resemblance.

Jeffrey Carlson IS a great actor and he is pulling off this storyline wonderfully IMO. So far, the story and writing for Zarf/Bianca has been really good and this IS the groundbreaking AMC we once knew.

So when AMC used to do other groundbreaking storylines, did we call it a sweeps stunt? Just bc Bianca isn't getting a 'biological woman' love interest - this IS real life and reality - it could definitely happen....so I don't see why this can't be another great social storyline that AMC is tackling...bc so far it is. It just seems like the AMC haters are just hating to hate on this one. You have to watch and not judge it based on what you hear only.

Oh and Zarf has NOT been shoved down our throats. Even I was worried that would happen at first, but he hasn't. He is only on about 2-3 times a week - actually only on like 1 time last week during Christmas.

[bellcurve]

Sweetums, have you been READING our posts, or just glossing over them?!

Becuase most of us have given very valid reasons as to why this story is all kinds of wrong and it hardly has anything to do with the piss-poor state AMC is in right now, or as you refer to it, "The Haters That Are Just Hating to Hate."

And why is it that because "oh, this can happen in real life" that this is an excuse to not give Bianca's fans what they have wanted for her from day one?

So, if Reggie were an ashy, crackhead, crackdealing high-school dropout with a limited vocabulary and addressed everyone by "brutha" and "****a whaaa?," then that would be ok too?! Because that can happen in real life.

Or if Julia Santos lived in a house with her mother, all of their siblings, their wives and husbands, their kids and their extended family, neighbors, and everyone under the sun in a one bedroom house, that would be acceptable as well?! Because, of COURSE, that can happen in real life too.

Some things go beyond "This can happen in real life." This is just downright character assassination. Bianca's been kissed by a guy before and felt ABSOLUTELY nothing for him. And Gabriel(AKA Dogboy) was a helluva lot better looking than Zarf. She has been established as a gay female. A lesbian. To many fans(including myself) Bianca(pre-McTrash) was a beacon of light and someone whose struggles they could relate to as a gay person. This is a slap in the face to those who have waited for YEARS to see her get the happiness she wanted and deserved back when she first made the bold courageous step to come out in 2000.

As I have said earlier, this is NO diss to the transgender community, but this is not a story that needs to be told at this juncture and especially with these characters. Especially during a time when people who are not in the GLBT community think that we are all as confused and insecure in their sexuality as Bianca. There is still a battle to be fought in terms of equal rights, the media's negative perception of us, and, quite frankly, people's ignorance.

And this isn't a sweeps stunt(It ain't February yet, folks). This is just gay-sploitation at it's finest hour from a show that USED to have a stellar repuation of portraying realistic, relatable characters to its audience.

[Kylie]

How can we not judge, at least a little? We know MMT's track record. We're not blowing smoke and making up examples to fit our fancy. This woman and this show have proven over and over again that when it comes time to put up or shut up, they shut up and go the easy route rather then the giving us something of substance.

alwaysAMC, the biggest arguement i have to what you're saying is gracing your signature. If AMC can and did do that to what was a groundbreaking, history making, and real life impacting storyline...then they can do whatever she pleases with Zarf. And why should we believe she won't?

Just because this could happen in real life, doesn't mean that's how it's going to come out with MMT penning it. All touch wtih the storyline that one could possibly have is usual dissovled by the second or third month in. And all that is left is the rotting flesh of what was this amazing idea, this groundbreaking concept, this eye opening lesson. All that's left is this nasty, stinking, disgusting and disturbing skin of what was supposed to be something ground breaking. Most of the time we want to forget what MMT calls "emotional, moving, groundbreaking, imaginative", we want to be pinched and woken up from the nightmare.

Zarf may be something to make me proud of AMC again...but it's just as likely that he'll end up with the fetus in the "What were they thinking? That was disasterous" category.

And for the record, I still and always will bleed AMC. I want to be proud of this show again, more then you know.

[alwaysAMC]

Bellcurve:

Without trying to start a fight about this...but my comment about AMC haters just hating to hate didn't come solely from this thread - its come ever since the character of Zarf was first publicized. People who don't/haven't watched AMC were just hating on the character just to hate - even the people watching AMC. Now after the character has been on - most viewers have had to eat their words (so far) bc they actually like the character and his scenes with Bianca. Until one gives someone/something a chance first, I don't think one should be able to judge.

Most of the argument now that I've read is this whole Bianca's love interest thing. First, it isn't set in stone YET that he/she will be Bianca's love interest. Bianca is intrigued by this person, but has firmly said she is NOT interested and is gay. Until we see what happens with this - we can't assume that just bc a transgendered who is falling for Bianca doesn't mean that the writers will make Zarf and Bianca a couple in love.

In regards to the "It is reality/It can happen in real life" - well sure, you can make an argument for ANY random case to actually happen in real life. But with this, I'm trying to say in our day and age, with transgenders slowly coming out and becoming more mainstream and socially present - it is definitely a 'real life' scenario that a transgendered fall in love with a gay person. Gay people and transgendered people are more likely to associate with each other and come into each other's worlds via gar bars/clubs/groups/meetings - so it would only make sense to find a transgendered fall in love with a single gay female!

BTW - Reggie pretty much WAS all those things you mentioned when he first was introduced on AMC. He may not have been 'ashey' (which I honestly don't really know what you mean by that...), but he was a high school dropout with a limited vocabulary who took took police officers as hostages by gunpoint in hospital waiting rooms. ALSO - the Santos family DID all live together in a small house - but finally when wild-child Julia Santos got fed up with her overprotected father, she rebelled and found her sister Maria. So did Rosa... AND to Kylie - I know your stance on the unaborted fetus - and I too am disappointed that they rewrote history. I personally wish they would have made Josh be Erica's son some other way - BUT you can't deny that the UNabortion wasn't groundbreaking in and of itself. Sure, it is a little supernatural and might be a slap in the face to LONG-TIME viewers who actually give a s.hit (bc most younger viewers and newer AMC fans don't really care THAT much) - but you can't deny the fact that an unabortion is creative and groundbreaking in it's own special way.

[Kylie]

LOL., I could make a very long list about how the fetus isn't groundbreaking or imaginative, but I save that for my monthly commuincations with MMT and Frons. I will never let them forget what they did, NEVER. Bastards.

I'm watching (or not in my case) watching this Zarf storyline with baited breath. I want AMC to make me proud again. I want to tell someone that I'm an AMC fan again. I want them to try and make up for Josh by giving us something groundbreaking to replace what they took from us with Josh. But I have limited\ if any faith in MMT/AMC. It's just how it is. She sees plot points, dollar signs, she seems moments and not long term. That scares the hell out of me.

[bellcurve]

I've seen scenes of AMC with Bianca and Zarf interacting, mainly the episode where Zach pulls his coat and threatens him and Bianca breaks them apart. I see the direction of this story from a mile away and, unless I am proven otherwise, I don't like where it is headed one bit!

Oh please spare me your "We don't know if Zoe's the love interest yet" BS. Bianca HAS no love interest at the moment, Liz Hendrickson is coming back for a limited stint, and the show is invested enough in Jeffrey Carlson/Zarf/Zoe to give the guy some kind of contract. What do YOU think?!

And have you SEEN the promos? They are all about Bianca's attraction to a man!

But this isn't what ANY segment of the GLBT community needs right now. We want to be seperately defined FIRST! Defined by our tastes, our nuiances, our way of life, without having some show "thinking" they are delivering a preachy message to America and instead, insulting the groups who they claim they want to portray.

Like I said earlier, some of this goes beyond "it can happen in real life."

Have you even MET a transgender person? A gay male? A lesbian? A bisexual person? Have you ASKED them what they think about this storyline or the plausibility of this happening in real life? Because I guarantee you, some of their reactions would be quite similar to mine.

Also, if you have never met these segments of the population, how do YOU know it can happen in real life?

This is the problem I have with this story. Soaps present lots of social issue stories to the audience and the goal for many of the soaps is to raise awareness about a certain issue or cause, especially to people who have never confronted these issues in real life. If someone in BF, Mississippi has NEVER met a gay person or a transgender person and saw this storyline, they would assume ALL lesbians secretly want a man, no matter what the packaging is. That is the way this story is coming across to me. The story also comes across to me as a way to present gays as "desperate" and "seeking anything for comfort." Sorry this isn't the way you all see it, but this is the way I do.

And you'll have to forgive me for being sensitive and not "open-minded enough" to accept Jerry Springer-esque plot twists from trashy writers like McTavish who think they can put all of "us" in a box and call it "social progression."

Yeah, but Reggie didn't sell drugs did he? He AVOIDED the stereotype thanks to the help of Jack and ended up learning along the way WHEN to use the street smarts(sometimes...LOL). And the Santoses didn't have 5 generations living in the house though. That's a harsh stereotype, but, hey, according to you and McTavish, it could happen!

You call that creative and groundbreaking?! That was FIVE steps back from Roe V. Wade!

I know not everyone looks for political agendas in soaps, but AMC under McTavish, they are all glaring and obvious. She has a tendency to make blatantly obvious statements about different groups of people: women, men, gays, murderers.

ETA: Ashy are the white, dry patches on your skin that don't come from putting lotion on your body, usually on elbows, knees, ankles, and for some, even their neck and other parts of their body.

[Canfan]

I don't want to start a fight with anyone either but message boards are I think for raising discussion and alternative points of view. Some people will love their soaps no matter what while others have varying expectations. I don't expect groundbreaking storylines from soaps anymore because quite frankly I don't think they have the writers available to do them justice. I don't think Bianca's rape was written very well or Ryan's dealing with his past abuse. How hard would it have been to write in some therapy sessions for either of them. Stealing sperm to impregnate yourself. That was so tasteless and over the top I was ashamed to say I watched the show. Undoing a groundbreaking abortion and bragging about it. But of course never having the courage to really write a discussion about it on the show. I can see this storyline going the same way. TargetDemo was right. Bianca is just a ratings stunt and character propper. Not a fully flushed out character in her own right. I think this story will burn up just based on Megan's track record of the last three years.

bellcurve I can only say word to all your posts. You've summed up almost perfectly the way I feel. I was just thinking of the Reggie scenario you described last night too. As for how primarily lesbians feel I can't speak for all of them but the ones I know who are still watching the show are not happy with some of the things they are seeing and reading. Even on Eden's board many fans are disturbed by where the direction of this storyline is possibly going. The main unhappiness comes from the promos playing up the attraction between Zarf the man and Bianca the woman and pieces of dialogue like this.

WTF? The soul only. She sure never said of course both. I guess we're all bisexual inside then is the message, because I am sure lots of people have been attracted to the soul of the same or opposite sex.

How is that scene not to be taken as anything less than Bianca is responsive to him physically.

And Bianca does'nt say no I am not, she stays silent and gives him an intense look.

I think the intial oh god no response to hearing Zarf was coming on also came from that horrible scene with him and Babe and Josh doing shots in his hotel. His first day he orders the Fusion girls to get naked. How creepy was that. Then the Babe propping right away. Look how well Josh's extoiling Babe's virtues has worked for his popularity. Once they toned him down he was more accepted I think.

I think many people are willing to give the storyline a chance they just want to be clear with the powers at ABCD that they will be very upset with AMC if they do go the romantic route with Zoe and Bianca. Especially since its been implied in interviews they probably will not being going through with the surgery. Which means Zarf/Zoe has the equipment of a male not a physical woman. I think this is just a desperate grab for attention by the show. Similar to the first lesbian kiss. It got lots of publicity, Lianca was written for about three months together and after that basically nothing. I would like to be positive but this show has given me very little to be positive about in the last couple of years. I'll wait and see but I will be vocal about how upset I will be if they continue to destroy Bianca's character before my eyes.

ETA: thanks to TV MegaSite for the ability to access the daily dialogue.

[daysfan]

I actually think I'm gonna like this story after all! At first I thought "Oh wonderful!" but now I think it will be great and interesting to see....I like the guy who plays Zarf and think he will do good in this story!