The Chad Dimera Award for Most Unlikely Leading Character

[dragonflies]

oh how I despised CS's Karen, the character felt pointless to me. 

[carolineg]

Karen didn't have much of a personality.  She got interesting stories given to her, but Karen as a person wasn't much different than your usual cookie cutter teen soap heroine.  There is nothing particularly memorable about her.  She's smart, pretty, popular, and kind, which are all great traits, but there is nothing that really stands out about her.   If Karen didn't have the molestation story and the great pleasure of being Sonny's first victim I don't think she'd be more than a blip on the GH radar (not that she's remembered much anyhow).  Even her popular romance with Jagger would barely hold up to the many great couples we got in the 90's.

[dc11786]

I have been cruising around "General Hospital" of the 1990s. I haven't seen Brenda's arrival yet, but I definitely found the character very rough in early 1993. I think Brenda is a very flat character in what I've seen. She seems mostly motivated by a desire to be with Jagger. This seems to be the entire extent of her characterization. This is by no means VM's fault, but I'm definitely curious to see how the show manages to evolve this character because she is barely beyond a stock type. Her connection to Julia is interesting at times, but Julia herself has a very delicate position on the canvas. 

Anchoring the younger set with a young woman who wanted to be a doctor was just smart. Karen and Jagger were both introduced during a period where there were interim headwriters between Norma Monty and Maralyn Thoma. Karen was introduced as a participant in the Volunteens program and was initially presented as an object of affection for Jason, who had Robin pining after him. I imagine Wendy Riche envisioned the audience watching this young woman go to medical school, become a doctor, and joining the staff of GH. That vision was achieved with Karen's return in "Port Charles." In terms of her actual connections on the canvas, it is initially weak. Pairing Karen with Jason, who came from a wealthy medical family, and with Jagger, who was rough around the edges and had escaped a troubled upbringing, makes sense. I feel there is an underlying seediness to a lot of Bill Levinson's work, which I don't always hate, but certainly makes  things uncomfortable. I think hinging the big romantic pairing on two characters without significant ties to the canvas was untraditional and may not have been good for the longevity of the couple. I also don't think Riche would have gone that route a year or so later. 

For the most part, Karen's struggles were mostly internal, which made her appear passive since all the actions she made were choices rather than actionable steps. Cari Shayne played the conflicted part of the character well, but I don't necessarily think she played the passion for medicine well. To be fair, I also don't think Levinson leaned into that part of her character enough. Cari Shayne seems no less capable than Christie Clark from "Days of our Lives" playing a very similar character at the same time. 

[j swift]

This is the original mention of the Brenda (pitched as Kelly) and the Barrett clan in SOD from March 19, 1991

Brenda may fit the brief as a surprising lead, given that in subsequent articles there was much more focus on the casting of Harlan, who was going to be paired with Tracy and there were big hopes for him as a character

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Edited June 3, 2023 by j swift

[carolineg]

I have literally almost compared Karen to Carrie from Days so many times, but Carrie had such stronger ties to the Days I was hesitant.  They are absolutely in the same vein, but Carrie had Sami as an antagonist which made her place on the canvas stronger.

Your take on Karen is really well thought out and expressed, but I have to disagree.  Karen was so middle of the road that I never found a point of view.  She wanted to be with Jagger passively.  She never did anything for herself.

Brenda and her early characterization may be flat, but she was direct in her goal: Jagger.   That doesn't make her better or worse than Karen, but there was a clear point of view.  Karen remained wishy washy to me and Brenda was allowed to grow and have an onscreen evolvement to Sonny and that relationship.  

It's obviously different takes on what was onscreen and Vanessa stayed at GH to build the character, but there was so much more there with Brenda from the get go as far as character development

Haha couldn't decide which 90210 character to name her after.  Brenda is more fitting than Kelly even though I find it a very dated name.

[dc11786]

I hear what your saying regarding Carrie Brady's place on the canvas. There is no arguing that. As I think I was saying poorly above, Karen was introduced during a transition period very early in Riche's run (as was Jagger). There were a lot of things that happened during that period that feel very against the soap opera grain. For example, David Langdon, Monica's ex and Dawn's father, arrives in Port Charles in a medical story where Monica inserts herself with the intention of telling David that Dawn was their daughter. David dies suddenly and Monica never reveals this information to David. This feels very untraditional. Similarly, the whole Joseph Adkins arc with Bobbie writing to a murderer and the women of Port Charles all fawning over his book is not something I felt was the type of story soaps in 1992 did. Similarly, introducing a character like Karen without any family ties and anchoring a younger part of the story with another outsider Jagger wasn't how things would typically work (effectively) on the soap.  

I think my issue with the idea that Brenda had a direct goal is that is all there was to her. She had nothing to her outside of that in early 1993. Jagger had wanting to find his family. Karen was working to get into medical school. Brenda had Jagger, who only wanted her when he couldn't have Karen. Even Ruby called Jagger out on this. Brenda's point of view was so limited. The fact that she nearly gets bested by Jenny Eckert of all people in a confrontation in March, 1993, is pretty wild given how milquetoast Jenny is. 

I can see why you would think Karen was taking a middle of the road approach to things. It might not have been presented well, but her pursuing her career and going to college was going to come first. Working at Kelly's and maintaining her grades was going to come before her romance with Jagger. With Rhonda around, meddling in her life, Karen definitely had more reason to be conflicted. Rhonda saw Karen's relationship with Jason as the key to Karen's success, both by marrying into a wealthy family and by building a network of connections in Karen's career field. 

Having watched some of her "General Hospital" run, I would like to at the early years of Karen's run on "Port Charles" to see how that all this continues in terms of her characterization. I think Karen remains very passive romantically deferring to Courtney Kanelos, who was just a much stronger adversary for Karen than Brenda was based on where Brenda was in her journey given that Courtney had Neil which tied her to the entire Scanlon clan. I do remember Karen having some outbursts, but I vaguely think that Shayne's Karen could also be pushed to her limits and she would fire back. This just wasn't her modus operandi as it was for characters like Courtney and early Brenda. 

In Brenda's defense, I think part of the issue was the underdevelopment of her character. I think there was an intent on either Levinson's (or Riche's) part to craft Brenda as a "poor little rich girl" type who had no moral compass because her father was a business tycoon who ignored her and had loved Julia's mother more than her mother. If this was true, and the intent to solicit sympathy, or least empathy, for Brenda, it wasn't played enough for this to be effective. Brenda rejected Julia both in terms of her role as a parental figure and any sisterly advice she gave. 

I would even go further and say that the issues I have with the Brenda/Karen rivalry were inherit to Bill Levinson's writing. By comparison, if you look at what was being done in the other female rivalries, the issues were mostly consistent. Jenny and Julia, for example, had the potential to be interesting but Julia was so passive and Jenny was sound brash and unfeeling that there was no one to root for. Also, the rivalry between Tiffany and Bobbie took Tiffany into a very narrow view with her solely trying to secure custody of Lucas at the cost of everything else including her friendship with Bobbie and Tony as well as her marriage to Sean. I'd be curious to see if Levinson had similar issues when he was at "Loving," but I'm spacing at the moment.   

Edited June 3, 2023 by dc11786

[Vee]

I think I've heard of this before but I'd definitely like to know more, lol. Probably in the Classic thread if that's preferred by people.

I've never been big on Cari Shayne's Karen. But yes, Carrie and Christie Clark have always had me. Like Kimberly as Robin on GH or Erin Torpey on OLTL, there is a core of lived experience with the actor evolving from child to adult and a quiet intelligence in their presence there that makes the character rise above any poor writing IMO.

Edited June 3, 2023 by Vee

[AMCHistory]

This is so true. Greenlee’s premier in Pine Valley was rough. I thought she was a summer spoiler for Becca/Scott, and would be gone by the holidays  

Remember Becca, Abigail Spencer, was getting all the teen story press on AMC at that time. Between the Kathie Lee Gifford connection, her unique creation/casting, they were leaning heavily on her as the young lead. She was the “focus” of the story:

- In Becca/Scott/Greenlee, she was the one we were supposed to root for, the underdog Tom Boy set to win over Prince Charming

- In Virgin Victor Scott/Becca/Leo/Greenlee, she was the victim who was going to reclaim her agency 

Greenlee came out of nowhere, namely due to Budig’a chemistry with Duhamel, and stole the show. By 2001, she has a full family on canvas (Woody, Milli, Roger, Mary) and Becca had a fade away scene at Ryan/Gillian’s wedding. 

[Vee]

Yeah, no one liked Becca. I did but almost no one else did at the time lol. IIRC she didn't get any onscreen exit.

[carolineg]

Thanks for such a great response and laying out everything going on at the show in that time period.  It really helps round out my view of Karen vs. Brenda.   I can agree Brenda was underdeveloped and one note, but Brenda does get fleshed out and I think hindsight plays a role in how I view her.  I can fill in the blanks for Brenda's behavior while re-watching, but the show doesn't necessarily break down her motivations for me.  When you explain the other rivalries at the time the Karen/Brenda issues make sense.  Brenda was too OTT to elicit sympathy, but Karen was too passive to ever truly win a sparring round.   At the end of the day Jagger was the most wishy washy and both girls deserved better. 

I love Carrie Brady too and always have so I was reluctant to compare the two.  I do think they have very similar attributes (except Carrie didn't really have career goals).  It does help to watch an actress grow up.  The Traci Middendorf year was dark for me.   I am still bummed Christie gave up acting because she should be leading the show today.  Anyhow, even if Carrie/Karen were cut from the same cloth Sami is just a much stronger adversary.  Not only was she much more evil and effective at manipulating Austin, the stakes were higher because she was Carrie's sister.   It's easy to understand Carrie's passiveness in regards to Sami because of Will and the fact that they are related.  Brenda was basically just playing juvenile pranks on Karen and making her cry.  It was 2 plus years of back and forth only for Brenda/Karen to become friends once Karen/Jagger got together and Brenda just gave up lol.  There is just a weakness in Karen I can't get over and even if Brenda was acting like a fool she seemed much stronger and resilient.  Karen always tended to crumble when the stakes got too much for her.  

[Vee]

It's too bad about Tracy Middendorf. She's a talented actress in a lot of TV and movies and I remember her debut episode which I found pretty atmospheric. She just was never going to replace Christie Clark in people's hearts.

[carolineg]

Besides the fact it would be nearly impossible to replace Clark, I think it was a combination of lack of chemistry with Patrick Muldoon and her family and the fact Carrie was written very bratty and out of character.  TM was really good in other things like 90210.  I don't know who thought it was a good idea to tease a Carrie/Lawrence romance lol.  I did enjoy when TM's Carrie was mean to Roman though.

I always laugh when CC shows up as Robin's friend on GH.  Christie was clearly willing to work even as the most D list character.

[Soaplovers]

I remember reading back in early 1994 that the reason Jagger/Karen left suddenly together was due to a few things.  Sabato Jr only signed a 2 year contract while Cari S had signed a 3 year control... so when he opted not to renew his contract, the show was trying to decide how to proceed.  They had considered having the two break up with Jagger leaving and Karen staying.. but Cari S had hinted she probably wouldn't renew her contract in a year so the show opted to write them out together rather then try to introduce a new love interest for Karen (which shows how much the show probably realized that Karen wasn't as important to the show as a character).

Brenda probably benefited from both Jagger/Karen leaving and was given more attention/focus since she would be staying on so she had to become more then just a chip on her should vixen.. she needed to have more layers to her.  And I think the show could move on from the Sonny angle easier since Karen was off the canvas.  Had she not had chemistry with Sonny.. I truly think both characters wouldn't have stayed on long term.

I always think of Julia/Brenda on GH in the same vein as Casey/Nikki on Y & R.  Career driven/over responsible individuals with issues/trauma from their parent.. that shielded their younger wild child younger sibling from the parent... and both of them trying to help their younger sibling from being self-destructive... and both of those said younger siblings end up becoming iconic characters on both of their soaps while their older sibling ended up leaving after a few years.

[carolineg]

I think the show could have easily pivoted Karen back to Jason if Jagger left and had her deal with college and the fall out from Scott being her father (even though I don't think Kin was on the show at the time lol).  I definitely think Karen had enough material for story without Jagger for a year.

I could also see why they wrote her out due to the build up of the Karen/Jagger romance and the fact KMc was old enough to carry her own teen story.   Karen wasn't necessary anymore.  I do think it would have been nice for Karen to be around for Stone/Robin.  I have always found Jagger/Karen's absence fairly glaring in an otherwise near perfect story.

I agree Brenda hugely benefitted from Jagger/Karen leaving.  She could get development/focus, she could be paired with Sonny without constant reminders of the Karen relationship, and it allowed Brenda to be aged up into adult stories fairly easily with her main peers not around.   I think Brenda could have lasted without Sonny.  She is another character you could easily pair up with AJ/Jason until Jason has his accident and then pair her up with Ingo once he was cast.  Since Ingo was hired for Lois/Rena I'll go with the assumption he would have been cast regardless of what Brenda was doing.  Obviously, no telling how successful she would have been, but I have no problem seeing Brenda still being a major player in 90's stories without Sonny.   Vanessa/Brenda really didn't have much competition in her age range at that time.

I do see the comparison with Casey/Julia. As far as Julia, I think she got lumped in with all the other Monty failures at the time even though she seemed to have the most potential.  I have never understood the reasoning not to re-visit Julia at any length especially in the 90's.  

[Darn]

Another bit of trivia I'd like to know: how many siblings of established characters went on to become far more popular than their sibling?

You're so right about Karen, she was nice girl filler until KMc was old enough for more mature stories. And I've said it before but giving Robin, beloved young grown-up-on-the-show, HIV was so fücking ballsy. Would never happen today, they're afraid to have Joss cheat on her boyfriend and get in trouble for it!

And I had no idea Jax was created FOR Brenda. All this time I thought his characterization is what is in order to be a stark contrast to Sonny (which is what he's become obviously but I thought it was always his whole THING).