2 hours ago, GLATWT88 said:

I noticed that the 1984/5 season was the peak for primetime soaps in the 80s. All the soaps seem to experience a significant drop the next season. Do we have any theories or solid reasons for why this happened? 

Dynasty had so many reasons it eroded. 

The Moldivia Massacre might have given them the biggest numbers ever but how do you top that where cliffhangers are concerned?

The Rita/Krystal story was horrible.

Catherine Oxenberg was fired and her recast was horrendous.

The Colbys spin off did them no favors.

 

Dallas:

Patrick Duffy leaving the show left a big hole to fill. They tried filling it with Dack Rambo.

Bobby's return was handled poorly.

Viewers returned the following season to see Bobby's return. They left the other soaps in the dust!

But the it was all a dream backfired and Dallas never recovered after that.

Edited April 10, 20232 yr by Soapsuds

1985/86 the season primetime soaps tanked due to several factors.

Sitcoms made a comeback: 1985/86 The Cosby Show became #1 and it pulled up the rest of the NBC Thursday sitcoms Family Ties, Cheers, Night Court. Over on ABC, Who's the Boss took off. The breakout hit of 1985/86 was The Golden Girls.

Counter-programming: Miami Vice blew up in 1985/86 and weakened Falcon Crest.

Weak/weakening lead-ins: Despite The Dukes of Hazzard ratings collapse from 1982/83 to final season 1984/85, CBS left it at Friday 8 pm. I guess the thought process was Dallas is still CBS's biggest hit scripted show and both Dallas and The Dukes of Hazzard appealed to male audiences. Fall 1985, The Twilight Zone became Dallas's new lead-in but it didn't work. The weak lead-in trickled down to Dallas and then to Falcon Crest.

CBS Thursday had a hit lineup with Magnum, P.I., Simon & Simon, Knots Landing but then Fall 1984 The Cosby Show came along and after the Super Bowl it blew up. Magnum, P.I. got weakened by The Cosby Show in 1984/85 and was effectively over in 1985/86. Simon & Simon got clobbered by Cheers in 1985/86. The weakening of the lead-ins trickled down to Knots Landing.

Business end: 1985 ABC sold to Capital Cities and that same year Brandon Stoddard became president of ABC. I have a feeling Brandon Stoddard was not a fan of Aaron Spelling and wanted the Spelling shows gone from ABC. 

Changing times: Looking back as an adult at major historical events during 1985/86 (AIDS crisis, Space Shuttle Challenger, Chernobyl), those were signs that times were changing. 1985/86 Murder, She Wrote became the highest-rated drama series. I think shows like Murder, She Wrote and the big hit sitcoms provided comfort at a time when the world around us was changing so much.

Edited April 11, 20232 yr by kalbir

Thanks everyone. This was insightful. I also noticed that primetime soaps had more episodes per season than other programming on primetime at the time. I thought it was due to popularity, but The Cosby Show or Murder, She Wrote never had a 28+ episode season. Meanwhile, Dallas, Dynasty, Knots Landing, Falcon Crest, Hotel did...was this for storytelling purposes on primetime soaps? 

Those extended episode orders for the soaps came about because the continuing format did not allow for repeats during the season.

Unlike sitcoms and action shows viewers did not respond to a repeat episode popping up in the mix and interrupting the story.

With Cosby, for example, NBC slotted in a repeat in Jan 85 and it scored one of the highest ratings to date, even though it had only aired a few months earlier.

CBS found themselves in the bad books with affiliates earlier on when there were no new episodes available for May sweeps and ratings suffered. So CBS ordered more and selectively pre-empted the soaps with TV movies and other special programming so the season finales would play during May.

That's why the soaps were not repeated during Summer-the ratings were abysmal. So soaps were expensive programming for the networks as there was no money to recoup from repeats.

26 minutes ago, Paul Raven said:

Those extended episode orders for the soaps came about because the continuing format did not allow for repeats during the season.

Unlike sitcoms and action shows viewers did not respond to a repeat episode popping up in the mix and interrupting the story.

With Cosby, for example, NBC slotted in a repeat in Jan 85 and it scored one of the highest ratings to date, even though it had only aired a few months earlier.

CBS found themselves in the bad books with affiliates earlier on when there were no new episodes available for May sweeps and ratings suffered. So CBS ordered more and selectively pre-empted the soaps with TV movies and other special programming so the season finales would play during May.

That's why the soaps were not repeated during Summer-the ratings were abysmal. So soaps were expensive programming for the networks as there was no money to recoup from repeats.

Makes a lot of sense. Thank you for the thorough response. Must be why 90s soaps like Melrose and 90210 also had large episode orders. I also recall reading that Desperate Housewives would have significant drops in audience figures on repeat episodes compared to other programs. 

9 hours ago, GLATWT88 said:

Thanks everyone. This was insightful. I also noticed that primetime soaps had more episodes per season than other programming on primetime at the time. I thought it was due to popularity, but The Cosby Show or Murder, She Wrote never had a 28+ episode season. Meanwhile, Dallas, Dynasty, Knots Landing, Falcon Crest, Hotel did...was this for storytelling purposes on primetime soaps? 

It depends on how many episodes the network wanted. 

CBS had originally ordered a certain amount of episodes for season 3 of Dallas. When it took off ratings wise CBS ordered more episodes even though the last episode had been taped.

MSW episodes were less probably because of Angela Lansbury request. Remember when she was absent a lot in one particular season? She was exhausted from filming so many episodes that she took time off. 

As for Cosby I have no clue..

The industry standard episode order at that time was an initial 13 episodes and then a further 9 for a total of 22.

Occasionally that would be extended on a show by show basis.

In Angela Lansbury's case she negotiated a lighter workload, hence the guest detectives. Was that only one season? I think it was part of a lot of backstage stuff that resulted in her getting a lot more money in return for working in every episode and maybe more control on the production side.

There are posters here with far more knowledge of the whole MSW story.

Edited April 11, 20232 yr by Paul Raven

It was two seasons where MSW was concerned. I think season 6 was the worse one. There was another season that she also didn't appear in ever episode. I recall the outcry because of her absence from the show. Soon after that CBS announced she'd be appearing in every episode again.

On 4/10/2023 at 3:31 PM, Paul Raven said:

That's why the soaps were not repeated during Summer-the ratings were abysmal. So soaps were expensive programming for the networks as there was no money to recoup from repeats.

Did primetime soap reruns have success in syndication before the growth of cable? Somehow I can't picture a CBS affiliate airing reruns of Dallas/Knots Landing/Falcon Crest at 4 pm opposite an ABC or NBC affiliate airing Oprah. Plus with syndication episodes are cut for more commercials so key portions of the storylines or pivotal character moments could be missing.

27 minutes ago, kalbir said:

Did primetime soap reruns have success in syndication before the growth of cable? Somehow I can't picture a CBS affiliate airing reruns of Dallas/Knots Landing/Falcon Crest at 4 pm opposite an ABC or NBC affiliate airing Oprah. Plus with syndication episodes are cut for more commercials so key portions of the storylines or pivotal character moments could be missing.

I don't know if it was successful, but yes, the nightime soaps did enter the syndication market. I've heard that in some cases, episodes were split into two, which just sounds horrible.

25 minutes ago, kalbir said:

Did primetime soap reruns have success in syndication before the growth of cable? Somehow I can't picture a CBS affiliate airing reruns of Dallas/Knots Landing/Falcon Crest at 4 pm opposite an ABC or NBC affiliate airing Oprah. Plus with syndication episodes are cut for more commercials so key portions of the storylines or pivotal character moments could be missing.

Pretty sure Dallas had some early moderate syndication success in the mid 80’s but by the late 80s not so much. Not sure about Knots but when Falcon Crest aired in syndication in 1986 for the first time it didn’t fare too well and didn’t last long. Main problem for all the soaps on broadcast syndication of course was the serialization of storylines. 

That said, some of the 80’s primetime soaps fared a lot better on cable. Prior to SoapNet Dallas and Knots Landing both aired on the old TNN (Nashville Network) for much of the latter part of the 90’s.

The 90’s primetime soaps fared a lot better in syndication/cable than their 80’s counterparts did though.

3 minutes ago, Franko said:

I don't know if it was successful, but yes, the nightime soaps did enter the syndication market. I've heard that in some cases, episodes were split into two, which just sounds horrible.

I have read that too but I recall it was mostly in international markets. Still sounds a mess. 

7 minutes ago, Franko said:

I don't know if it was successful, but yes, the nightime soaps did enter the syndication market. I've heard that in some cases, episodes were split into two, which just sounds horrible.

I would guess the episodes that were split were those that ran for 90 minutes or two hours during their original broadcast.

3 minutes ago, soapfan770 said:

Pretty sure Dallas had some early moderate syndication success in the mid 80’s but by the late 80s not so much. Not sure about Knots but when Falcon Crest aired in syndication in 1986 for the first time it didn’t fare too well and didn’t last long. Main problem for all the soaps on broadcast syndication of course was the serialization of storylines. 

Oprah went national in Fall 1986 and that changed the network affiliate syndication game.

4 minutes ago, soapfan770 said:

That said, some of the 80’s primetime soaps fared a lot better on cable. Prior to SoapNet Dallas and Knots Landing both aired on the old TNN (Nashville Network) for much of the latter part of the 90’s.

I remember Dallas reruns on The Nashville Network around 1996, 1997 but I don't recall them rerunning Knots Landing in that same time. I think it was TNT that reran Knots Landing in the 1990s.

19 minutes ago, Franko said:

I don't know if it was successful, but yes, the nightime soaps did enter the syndication market. I've heard that in some cases, episodes were split into two, which just sounds horrible.

There was a weird trend in the '80s of splitting hour shows into half-hours once they hit syndication to fit better onto network affiliates.  Dynasty was the only soap to do the half-hour split, but Knight Rider, Trapper John MD and Fame also did this.

20 minutes ago, kalbir said:

Oprah went national in Fall 1986 and that changed the network affiliate syndication game.

I remember Dallas reruns on The Nashville Network around 1996, 1997 but I don't recall them rerunning Knots Landing in that same time. I think it was TNT that reran Knots Landing in the 1990s.

Interestingly Fall 1986 was when CBS cancelled Press Your Luck and turned that 4PM ET slot back to the affiliates, but it seemed like most affiliates by that point just pre-emoted the slot anyways.

I’ve seen various TV schedules from the late 80’s which by then Dallas and Dynasty were kind of thrown on either Fox or Indy stations, often airing in morning timeslots or   late night.

And I think you’re right about Knots airing on TNT and not on TNN. I think Dallas was on TNT at one point as well before moving to TNN. I definitely remember Dallas ironically airing right after The Dukes of Hazzard in the evenings from about 1996-2000ish or so when TNN first tried to rebrand. In fact I remember TNN even replayed both the Dallas ‘96 and ‘98 TV movies. 
 

I recall Dynasty aired on either E! or Bravo or something at one point, while it seems both FC and Hotel were left sitting in the vault until SoapNet premiered. 

41 minutes ago, soapfan770 said:

I recall Dynasty aired on either E! or Bravo or something at one point, while it seems both FC and Hotel were left sitting in the vault until SoapNet premiered. 

Dynasty reruns were part of FX's first programming.

Thank you all for the discussion about the syndication trends. Fascinating stuff.