11 hours ago, Chris 2 said:

And when Bobby showed Pam’s lookalike a picture of Pam, it was NOT Victoria. She wouldn’t give permission for her clips or image to be used. That’s unusual for an actor - again, they must have really pissed her off.

Constance McCashin (ex-Laura, KL) did the same thing, refusing to give permission to the show's producers for the use of her face and voice in clips after she was let go, and even refusing to participate in cast reunions, too (although she did show up with the rest of the KL cast at the 2009 TV Land Awards).

Apparently, CM was livid that they let her go in order to cut costs - and you know something?  I can't say that I blame her for feeling hurt about it to this day.  She, along with Julie Harris (ex-Lilimae), who was also let go for similar reasons, were part of the backbone of KNOTS.  There were other actors in the cast who were way more expendable.  Losing CM and JH, along w/ Donna Mills (ex-Abby), crippled the show in the long run.

10 hours ago, kalbir said:

Of note is that CBS was in 3rd place during the final four seasons of Dallas (1987/88 to 1990/91).

That might have been one reason why DALLAS (and KL) stayed on as long as it did.  CBS itself was in such bad shape that any hit show on their lineup, even one that was fading, was better than nothing.

Nevertheless, I tend to agree with @Soapsuds.  All four of the major primetime soaps - DALLAS, DYNASTY, FC, KL - overstayed their welcomes and needed to go sooner than they did.

Edited April 21, 20223 yr by Khan

8 minutes ago, Khan said:

Constance McCashin (ex-Laura, KL) did the same thing, refusing to give permission to the show's producers for the use of her face and voice in clips after she was let go, and even refusing to participate in cast reunions, too (although she did show up with the rest of the KL cast at the 2009 TV Land Awards).

Apparently, CM was livid that they let her go in order to cut costs - and you know something?  I can't say that I blame her for feeling hurt about it to this day.  She, along with Julie Harris (ex-Lilimae), who was also let go for similar reasons, were part of the backbone of KNOTS.  There were other actors in the cast who were way more expendable.  Losing CM and JH, along w/ Donna Mills (ex-Abby), crippled the show in the long run.

That might have been one reason why DALLAS (and KL) stayed on as long as it did.  CBS itself was in such bad shape that any hit show on their lineup, even one that was fading, was better than nothing.

Nevertheless, I tend to agree with @Soapsuds.  All four of the major primetime soaps - DALLAS, DYNASTY, FC, KL - overstayed their welcomes and needed to go sooner than they did.

Knots also served for a while as genuine competition for LA Law, which was at its peak around that time. 

Any time they would bring out that video will of Laura's, with another actress dubbing it (as they did in the '97 reunion), you were just reminded again what a mistake they made letting her go, especially when there were a number of past their prime characters still on the canvas, like Mack. 

As for Victoria, from what has been discussed earlier in the thread, I get the feeling the working environment for Dallas wasn't that friendly unless you were close to Larry Hagman. While I am not saying she and Larry didn't get along (she has spoken of his generosity while they did scenes together), it seems like Pam and JR were two different poles of the show that increasingly could not coexist. 

11 minutes ago, DRW50 said:

As for Victoria, from what has been discussed earlier in the thread, I get the feeling the working environment for Dallas wasn't that friendly unless you were close to Larry Hagman.

I've gotten that same impression as well.  I also get the feeling that, as anyone who worked on DALLAS, you didn't question Leonard Katzman's judgment on anything if you wanted to remain employed on the show.  The only reason why Sue Ellen got to leave with any dignity is because Linda Gray basically bullied Katzman into writing her as something other than a pathetic, falling-down drunk.

Edited April 21, 20223 yr by Khan

I thought Sue Ellen got a crappy ending. 

Once Pam left the show it was pretty much over. The thing that held it up two more seasons was JR vs Sue Ellen and the Weststar story with Kimberly.

The original premise of the show was the Ewings vs Pam. That ended when Victoria left. Even when Bobby left we could've had JR vs Pam but the writers dropped the ball.

Edited April 21, 20223 yr by Soapsuds

2 minutes ago, Soapsuds said:

I thought Sue Ellen got a crappy ending.

Still, it was better than how Leonard Katzman might have wanted to send out Sue Ellen: drunk as a skunk, being carted off to a loony bin, swearing (with slurred speech) that she'll get J.R. if it's the last thing she ever does.

Still brilliant, but agreed with @FrenchBug82 that this would never air today (thank goodness)

Sue Ellen Ewing:
Tell me, J.R., which slut are you going to stay with tonight?

J.R. Ewing:
What difference does it make? Whoever it is has got to be more interesting than the slut I'm looking at right now.

Oh, you could play that scene today.  But it better end with J.R. getting his balls caught in a vise.

3 minutes ago, j swift said:

Still brilliant, but agreed with @FrenchBug82 that this would never air today (thank goodness)

Sue Ellen Ewing:
Tell me, J.R., which slut are you going to stay with tonight?

J.R. Ewing:
What difference does it make? Whoever it is has got to be more interesting than the slut I'm looking at right now.

Dallas' dialogue wasn't always great but this is indeed brilliant.

26 minutes ago, Khan said:

The only reason why Sue Ellen got to leave with any dignity is because Linda Gray basically bullied Katzman into writing her as something other than a pathetic, falling-down drunk.

I think we have heard over the years that the reason LG managed to get them to write Sue Ellen better is because she had Hagman's support when she went upstairs to complain.
This was Katzman's show but Hagman's set. If he liked you, fine. If he didn't, then you might have the choice between benign neglect like with VP's Pamela or outright hostility that would lead you to not to last long.

 

1 minute ago, j swift said:

Still brilliant, but agreed with @FrenchBug82 that this would never air today (thank goodness)

Sue Ellen Ewing:
Tell me, J.R., which slut are you going to stay with tonight?

J.R. Ewing:
What difference does it make? Whoever it is has got to be more interesting than the slut I'm looking at right now.

😂 Brilliant!!

Miss Ellie: A baby...I remember JR being shy as a baby

Miss Ellie: JR this room is going to be the nursery. Sue Ellen and I are going shopping for the nursery. Want to join us afterwards for lunch?

JR: I can't I'm talking at the meeting for the...

Sue Ellen(actually thinking there's no meeting but instead hooking up with another woman): He's not so shy anymore.

Miss Ellie: (Tapping Sue Ellen's stomach): Apparently not!

Sue Ellen: (laughing): Miss Ellie!

 

7 hours ago, Khan said:

That might have been one reason why DALLAS (and KL) stayed on as long as it did.  CBS itself was in such bad shape that any hit show on their lineup, even one that was fading, was better than nothing.

Nevertheless, I tend to agree with @Soapsuds.  All four of the major primetime soaps - DALLAS, DYNASTY, FC, KL - overstayed their welcomes and needed to go sooner than they did.

As far as the CBS big three primetime soaps go, 1985/86 was the tanking season. Spring 1986 CBS and Lorimar should've realized the genre is fading and give the shows two seasons to wrap up everything. 1987/88 is when they started going off the rails and that season feels like the natural end point of the genre. Fall 1988 onward is off the rails plus budget mode and its difficult to watch that era. I don't know how much of it is effects from the writer's strike, or that times were changing.

19 hours ago, FrenchBug82 said:

I am not foolish enough to believe Hollywood has solved its gender problem and that toxic sets don't exist anymore but the obvious macho culture on that set and in the writing room, I believe, was too over-the-top to be acceptable in today's environment.
 

7 hours ago, DRW50 said:

I get the feeling the working environment for Dallas wasn't that friendly 

7 hours ago, Khan said:

I've gotten that same impression as well.  I also get the feeling that, as anyone who worked on DALLAS, you didn't question Leonard Katzman's judgment on anything if you wanted to remain employed on the show. 

Given what we know today, I can't help but feel that the rise of Les Moonves through the ranks of Lorimar/Warner Bros. also played a part. He was there from 1985-1995 and that overlaps with the CBS big three primetime soaps salary dumping mostly the long-time female cast members when they were in budget mode.

Edited April 21, 20223 yr by kalbir

 

 

 

Well here Victoria says that she was offered a lot of money to stay.

 

Linda Gray was the best eyebrow actress since Joan Crawford.

4 hours ago, Soapsuds said:

 

Well here Victoria says that she was offered a lot of money to stay.

 

Yeah, she changed her story several times over the years so I never take any of her version at face value.
I do believe that she was underestimated and scoffed at by TPTB and not well-treated generally, even if some of it might have come from her, hum, quirks.
How she came to exit though is probably a comedy of errors and ego on both sides.

Victoria has not always been a reliable narrator. For example, sometimes she says that as far as she’s concerned, Pam died in the car accident. But shortly before the finale aired, she said she would have been willing to appear and put a “coda” on the story of Pam, but didn’t want to be part of another cliffhanger. And even when they did the TNT revival, she mused publicly about a return but a year or so later released another statement saying that she would never make a “desperate reappearance.”

Some of her colleagues said in Barbara Curran’s book that she was renegotiating and I believe them.