Empire: Discussion Thread

[ajsp35801]

I thought we were talking about no one bring a match for a cold blooded killer. If we are talking savvy then yes, Cookie could outsmart him.

I thought from day one that when Lucious died, he'd leave it to Queen Cookie.

Preach!

[MoTheGreat]

Yeah, but they still showing about the black gay son is the best that came out of Lucious & Cookie.

[Cheap21]

It would be interesting to see a girl in the mix and I have no doubt Lucious fathered a half sister who will come for her check in a future season

[Darn]

And what is wrong with that? Would you think anything of it if Jamal were straight? No, you wouldn't, he'd simply be their most talented son. Your issue is that you think Lee Daniels has an agenda, as if presenting someone like yourself is an agenda as opposed to just telling a story. Honestly, get over it.

I keep seeing articles claiming that this show does "catfights", did I miss it or have no women actually fought on this show? Beyond verbal throwdowns, there haven't been any physical altercations.

Edited March 10, 2015 by Darn

[YRBB]

Thank you. Thank you.

It's the same reason why they wanted Lucious to have had Jamal and two other girls, instead of boys -- because they can't possibly understand/accept how and why, out of three men, the gay one seems to be the most talented and potentially winning.

.

Edited March 10, 2015 by YRBB

[Vee]

All the characters have their due, IMO, but Jamal has been clearly sold as the primary rooting interest here, the dark horse - and for once, a gay character has been moved into first position in a soap opera business/family empire story of this ilk. If people can't handle that it's their problem.

[ajsp35801]

"For once"?..you act like there are alot of soap operas out there with gay sons that took a back seat. This show is a first for many things dealing with sexuality, race, and socioeconomic status.

[Vee]

We're saying the same thing.

[ajsp35801]

Oh yeah...I should have started with "I agree". Lol

But I don't think Jamal being gay as to why people have a problem. It's causehe's a writer's self insertion. A Gary Stu. He would probably get the same amount of flack if he was straight. The people who dont like him would choose another reason to gripe.

Edited March 10, 2015 by ajsp35801

[ajsp35801]

I don't think that's what Mo meant. I figure she was saying that since Lucious wants to leave Empire to a son, make the other two girls to stop pretending their is a choice.

[Vee]

But he's not a Gary Stu or a Mary Sue or anything else. He's made mistakes and bad choices like the rest of them and he has pride and foibles which will surely trip him up. He's just a rootable character.

[ajsp35801]

Of course he is. Jamal is mostly perfect who does right. Very sympathetic! the only thing that keeps him frim being perfect in Lucious' eyes is that he's gay. Name one mistake that Jamal made that wasn't penned to promote hypermasculinity angle for the character?

Andre has 3 strikes: mental illness, no musical talent, and married a white woman. Lucious can't do anything with that.

Hakeem Is too young and naive for Lucious although he has talent. But he has never struggled and has no street cred which makes his music lack authenticity. Lucious can't respect that at all.

Edited March 10, 2015 by ajsp35801

[Vee]

But he's not perfect. He let his relationship with Michael collapse in favor of pursuing his career and not coming out when he should've. He was with Olivia and may or may not have fathered Lola at his father's behest. He blamed Hakeem for a setup Andre created. And I'm sure there'll be more as time goes on. Also, I'm not sure what "hypermasculinity" you're talking about coming from him. Just because Jamal isn't heightened and flamboyant in the usual 'safe gay' way too much primetime media portrays gay characters, he's therefore too butch?

I've seen enough [!@#$%^&*] self-loathing or coded gay characters in my time to know when I'm being pawned off or looked down upon. Jamal is a strong, soulful and emotional leading protagonist created by a gay showrunner. He's openly intimate with his lover and often open and raw with his feelings, but he's also no pushover and won't back down. He's all of the above, just as he sings.

And let's not forget, whether or not Lucious can respect Hakeem, he was fully prepared to grind it out and make Hakeem his successor for weeks or months before and after the pilot - just so the gay kid didn't get the throne.

I don't understand what you want Jamal to be. He has been shown to be three-dimensional and flawed like the other brothers. But this show has signposted since Day One that Jamal was the dark horse to take the throne, and that a huge part of this season's story, at least, was going to be him coming into his own and finding his way. The other brothers are also in the process of doing that now, but Jamal's story is central to the season. Don't act like it's some shock or you got sold some bill of goods.

Edited March 10, 2015 by Vee

[ajsp35801]

A friend of mine pointed out the hypermasculinity. I actually defended the scenes on this board and to her but it doesn't mean I don't get what the show is doing with them. The show has gone out of its way to show Jamal as tough and "manly". Something it didn't do for Andre nor Hakeem, whom I doubt many viewers see as a fully grown man. But thats another Topic. They Even had Cookie saying Jamal is "a top". I think we all get the point the show is making.

Yes. Jamal left his lover but the show made a point of painting Michael as insecure and unworthy. There has been no blowback or consequences from how he treated Michael. they even went do far as introducing a more acceptable love interest for him. One that Lucious likes and respects.

I'm Team Jamal. He's my favorite besides kitty and Cookie. But I see why people are put out by him and the writing he gets. For Me, on the other hand, it's refreshing to see a person from a marginalized group be a fave in the writer's room. So I am loving It all!

Edited March 10, 2015 by ajsp35801

[Vee]

I'm very glad they made a point of showing Jamal to be a man, with a man's pride and anger and passion regardless of his orientation. I think that's extremely important. Like it or not, there's a segment of the audience that needs to hear and see that message be reinforced regularly. They need to know it makes no difference. They have to bust that box and keep doing so. And Lucious will only like and respect Ryan Morgan until he realizes Ryan Morgan is gay and [!@#$%^&*] his son.

As for whether or not the writing is playing favorites - I think they have taken the time out to flesh out the other brothers across the season and will continue doing so. For now, I agree it is just incredibly refreshing seeing Jamal center stage. I am sure he will take a fall soon enough, and the other two will keep rising. That's the way a family soap like this works.