2 hours ago, dc11786 said:

Thanks for the list. I think Edie Lehman was pre-Monty. Katherine wasn't working. I am at the end of October, 1990. With Cheryl back, her days were numbered. Monty had no use for Cheryl so I don't think Katherine was a casualty of Monty. She would have been. 

Yeah, I included Katherine (who left with her ward, King) as a prologue for what was coming. We can't lay that one at Monty's feet, even though, as you point out, she would have been cut anyway.

2 hours ago, dc11786 said:

Broxton was played by Norman Snow in this time period. 

Carla and Frankie both depart the same day as Colton and Charlene, February 26. This might be Robert Fortinero, Jr.'s only appearance in 1991 as he is rarely used once Monty appeared from what I saw earlier this year. 

I would move Nurse Sheila Contillion (Stacey Morez) up to the first round of new hires. She is appearing as early as March (if not February, I will update when I get there again in my viewing). She essentially replaces Dawn at the nurses' station. Joey Moscini is also around in February as he was on the S.S. Tracy as well. There are a lot of new recurring characters who seem like they are going to be more. There were a pair of siblings, Carol and Patrick Pulaski, who were friendly with the Eckerts. Carol was a love interest for Bill and Patrick seemed poised as the loser in love who would be Jenny's second tier love interest to the more exciting lead. Patrick worked as a mannequin dresser at Wyndham's. Carol was someone's secretary, I believe. Mac ended up doing community service at a center with a bunch of kooky types, but they may have arrived in the time of your second wave. 

I also forgot to mention Mary (Mary Jo Catlett), Katherine's housekeeper, who I believe also departed around this time. And I assume that Olin, Anna's housekeeper, was done, too.

2 hours ago, dc11786 said:

Monty dumped all the characters who had been introduced since she left in 1987 (or was it 1986?). Also, no one in that first rounded who was added was returning. Herring was only returning from her maternity leave. 

It's funny. We talk about Bridget & Jerome Dobson wanting to make it 1987 again when they came back to Santa Barbara, and Monty was doing similar. Although as @Jdee43points out, her time machine was set to 1980. BTW, note that Dawn & Decker on the run ALSO began on the day of a wedding. At least that one actually happened.

1 hour ago, dc11786 said:

Jack Wagner leaving makes sense as Mac was starting to get a lot of the Frisco comical crime fighting stuff. 

Unless I missed it, did they ever resolve Frisco's last story? He was apparently freaking out about somebody uncovering his past, which was the reason he gave to Felicia for leaving her.

1 hour ago, dc11786 said:

Jason vs. A.J. is in the works from the beginning, although maybe not in the same form as it would later be. 

Indeed! Jason and A.J.'s first interaction included A.J. shooting off his mouth and getting punched out.

1 hour ago, dc11786 said:

Susan Hornsby is more forgotten than written out. I'm not even sure she was a constant present in Paul's life as her primary residence, I believe, was with Paul's parents. 

Susan seems like such an afterthought to me, nothing but easy motivation for Paul to do the cartel's bidding.

1 hour ago, dc11786 said:

Lucy's departure is all on Riche. I'd say the same for David Langton's as well. Langton's death is incredibly sudden and written when there is no headwriter. 

Yeah, once again, I included those as an attempt to put a definitive ending to what was going on. There was overlap, though, like how mourning Robert & Anna was going on at the same time of introducing Karen & Jagger (two characters very much of the early Riche era).

On 11/27/2023 at 1:31 PM, Soapsuds said:

The ratings had a lot to do with it.

Why did ABC rehire her? GH was a solid #2 with a 7.5 rating. Once Gloria was done with destroying the show it had dropped to a 5.0 rating and ranked #7.

I think there were also rumblings about the cast unrest during Joe Hardy's run. Hardy also seems to have the same directive that Monty had by mining the show's history in his final months and grounding the typical over the top serial into a more recognizable world.

There was a drop around the time of the Casey the Alien tale, but every show drops around half a point that week so I am wondering if there wasn't a change in the Nielsen point value that week. 

On 11/27/2023 at 1:06 PM, Khan said:

For example, just 3-4 months after the Eckerts were introduced, Fred and Angela, the patriarch and matriarch of the family, were written out; and less than five months after Nancy was introduced, SHE was killed off!  Unless those quick exits had been the plan all along, I'd say either Monty or the network recognized right away that her new vision for the show was all wrong.

They were trying to write a wrong, but it only made it worse. There were better off just killing off Fred Eckert, dropping Carol Lawrence to recurring, and dumping Joey at the end of the summer after having him and A.J. fight over some girl. Dumping everyone at once only turned more people off because every time you tuned in it was new stories and new faces. They might have been able to survive one, but not both. 

On 11/29/2023 at 3:36 PM, titan1978 said:

And it never hit those numbers again, never a 7 or higher again IIRC. 

Her intentions were correct- more grounded characters, more modern concerns, better representation of economic differences. Her instincts and writing team didn’t help execute that vision.

Unfortunately she tried to shove too much new down viewers’ throats, and the Eckerts were not well positioned at all. The Quartermaines became support players, and the new cast members were not very popular. I know I only liked Mac and Julia in that whole bunch of characters. Nobody wanted Tony Geary on GH as anybody but Luke.

Within her first year, Wendy Riche added her own sensibilities which leaned more naturally into a grounded show, and by the time Luke & Laura returned and the Labine’s material started, it was a really strong show again.

What I wonder is if Riche had arrived earlier instead of Monty round 2, what would that have been like? Did GH have to crater in the ratings for the audience that would accept the more grounded vision? Or could she have hung on to those higher numbers? Would the audience in 1991 accept that GH?

I think the last spike is October, 1993, when Luke and Laura return, but that only gets the show to a 6.6. Once "General Hospital" falls into the tier 3 range with the shows that are all in half a point of each other it is hard for it to remain a solid #3, though it manages to do it on occasion. 

There wasn't much storytelling though in the early Eckert days. Or I should say there is very little to emotionally invest in. It didn't matter that the characters were mentioning their ethnic backgrounds or referenced things in the real-world. The lack of sensible storytelling is what kills the show's momentum, which is what I think you were probably alluding too on top of what you had already said. 

When Riche arrived, she was also better at stopping the bleeding of the cast turnover. After Lucy's departure, the cast seems more stable, which helps guide the show into the first two years of Riche before Labine's arrival. While I enjoy 1992, the ratings look terrible. It doesn't help that it is just solidly stuck in the middle of that group of 5 to 6 shows that are all super close and it now tends to trail. 

If Riche had been hired in December, 1990, I am not sure how things would have worked out. By the time Riche arrived, Linda Gottlieb was doing what she was doing at "One Life to Live" and Fran Sears manage to eek out a little bit of critical support for things like the Matthew Ford story. On the otherhand, late run Palumbo/Hardy has transitioned to a much mellower show so I think it could have been fine. 

On 12/1/2023 at 3:35 PM, j swift said:

If you think about it, Gloria Monty had a much bigger hurdle to get over the second time in terms of ratings.

In her first iteration, GH was unpopular, so her job was to create buzz and get people to watch.  She jazzed up the music, created controversy, and made GH a spectacle. But, before she was re-hired, Joe Hardy had taken the show from 1st to 8th place in the ratings.  He was disliked by the actors, and the press was critical of his choices. 

So, the audience was actively abandoning the show.  It is hard to get fans to make a new habit once it was broken.  Some may argue that she made it even more difficult by trying to persuade an audience to return by not giving them what they wanted (like Luke rather than Bill). 

But, that context is valuable to consider when we note that quality of storytelling was not the only reason for Gloria Monty's eventual failure to revive the show.

 

Joe Hardy inherited a number 2 show and it stayed a number 2 show. If it occasionally was listed as 3, it was because it had the same rating as another show but a smaller share. What Hardy and Palumbo did allow to happen was that "General Hospital" had a solid 1.0 point gap between itself and #3. They weren't increasing the numbers which tended to dip or stay relatively steady, while other shows rose. So ratings really weren't the issue in terms of dropping from #1 to #8. 

Monty needed to energize the show, which had a decent core, but no excitement. The stories she inherited weren't generating the energy that the show typically had. The storytelling fluctuated, but the cast had remained fairly stable in terms of the core.  

On 12/1/2023 at 8:29 PM, titan1978 said:

I think her essentially firing Finola Hughes and Tristan Roger’s quitting and basically telling ABC it was because of Monty that did her in. That was her two biggest stars on the show at that time. More than one cast member complained up the ladder that she was not on top of her game. Her husband had either passed away just before she arrived or soon into her run. She was inflexible and her instincts were just pissing everyone off that worked on the show.

Robert O'Bryne died on June 18, 1991, of a heart attack. 

3 hours ago, dc11786 said:

Also, wasn't "Guiding Light" under a creative resurgence by going the route of more realistic, emotional tales rather than the over the top insanity that had been so much of daytime throughout the 1980s?

I think so.  By 1991, Robert Calhoun, who'd been the EP for the past two years, had stabilized the show creatively, bringing in Nancy Curlee as Co-HW, then promoting her to the HW slot after Pamela K. Long's departure.  Jill Farren Phelps receives a ton of credit for GL's resurgence in the early '90's, but it really began with Calhoun, who moved GL back to being an ensemble show after it had spent much of the previous decade being dominated by Reva Shayne Lewis, played by Kim Zimmer.

It's interesting that Gloria Monty was rumored to be in talks with SaBa.  Weren't there also rumors suggesting that she was in talks to take over AMC as well?  I think she could have done some good for SaBa, but I don't know if she would've been able to save it from cancellation.  (Frankly, I think SaBa was a goner by that point).

10 hours ago, Franko said:

Yeah, I included Katherine (who left with her ward, King) as a prologue for what was coming. We can't lay that one at Monty's feet, even though, as you point out, she would have been cut anyway.

I also forgot to mention Mary (Mary Jo Catlett), Katherine's housekeeper, who I believe also departed around this time. And I assume that Olin, Anna's housekeeper, was done, too.

I forget about King, the show's last attempt to try and give Katherine something to do all day but wait for Robert to come back to her. They tried giving her Duke's nightclub and letting her rebrand it Delafield's. Then, they tried the friendly business rivalry/flirtation with Colton; the gym and the club were neighbors and Colton was single between Olivia's death and Carla's arrival. Finally, they gave her King. Poor Chris Babers. 

Harrison Davis leaves in early November. Michael Watson also "returns" in December after filming some European horror film. 

Mary outlives Katherine. I think when Mary goes so does her partner-in-crime, Angel. Probably around February-March, 1991. I don't think they are around when the Outback opens. 

I feel like Olin is around until the edge of Wendy Riche. I think she is replaced by Noriko, who may be a relation. Or I might be confusing Olin/Noriko with the Jennings/Reginald situation. 

10 hours ago, Franko said:

It's funny. We talk about Bridget & Jerome Dobson wanting to make it 1987 again when they came back to Santa Barbara, and Monty was doing similar. Although as @Jdee43points out, her time machine was set to 1980. BTW, note that Dawn & Decker on the run ALSO began on the day of a wedding. At least that one actually happened.

The issue was she also didn't want it to be 1980. She wanted this "General Hospital"/ "Eastenders" hybrid. 

10 hours ago, Franko said:

Yeah, once again, I included those as an attempt to put a definitive ending to what was going on. There was overlap, though, like how mourning Robert & Anna was going on at the same time of introducing Karen & Jagger (two characters very much of the early Riche era).

I'll agree that Rogers and Hughes definitely depart because of Monty. I feel like Emma Samms is brought back specifically to fill the space that Anna leaves, except that Scorpio isn't around long enough for that even to become a thing. 

The overlap does occur as a result of the Riche's attempts to get Rogers and Hughes to stay even after they announced their departures. Finally, once Norma Monty is out the door, it is announced at the end of March, 1992, that Anna and Robert have been presumed dead in the boat explosion. Karen may have already been introduced; she was a part of the VolunTeens program at GH. Jagger is definitely introduced after when his crew plans to rob Kelly's after Ruby refuses to serve them beer. 

Reflecting now, I do wonder about how the transition would have worked in 1991 with Wendy Riche. Riche doesn't dump the cast. She keeps most around long enough for the writers to figure out what to do with them. I'm curious if Felicia & Frisco and Robert & Anna could have functioned in Riche's Port Charles. I don't know if either male actor would be interested in that vision of "General Hospital." Finola Hughes would have shined as Kristina Wagner did when she returned. 

 

10 hours ago, Khan said:

It's interesting that Gloria Monty was rumored to be in talks with SaBa.  Weren't there also rumors suggesting that she was in talks to take over AMC as well?  I think she could have done some good for SaBa, but I don't know if she would've been able to save it from cancellation.  (Frankly, I think SaBa was a goner by that point).

I came across the tidbit in a soap column in the newspapers when I was trying to figure out when Gloria Monty was announced as executive producer at "General Hospital." The "Santa Barbara" rumor was about a week or two before the announcement Monty was back at GH and it was in a column discussing the situation with "Santa Barbara" so I don't know about "All My Children."

1 hour ago, dc11786 said:

The issue was she also didn't want it to be 1980. She wanted this "General Hospital"/ "Eastenders" hybrid. 

Ah, that's true. I was being unfair to Monty. She was willing to move on, ABC wasn't.

1 hour ago, dc11786 said:

I'm curious if Felicia & Frisco and Robert & Anna could have functioned in Riche's Port Charles. I don't know if either male actor would be interested in that vision of "General Hospital." Finola Hughes would have shined as Kristina Wagner did when she returned. 

Talk about your what-could-have-beens. Most, if not all, of the longtime women had some golden opportunities with Riche. It would have been nice to see what she'd have done with Finola.

I think the nature of Luke and Laura as characters having their original foundations built on more realistic ground by Marland and PFS made them fit in to the tone Riche and Labine were going for pretty seamlessly. At that point, I thought Robert actually needed a rest, and I cannot imagine Tristan in 1993 fitting in with what they were doing. When he came back for the hospital virus storyline I was happy to see him, and I had been sick of him back when he left.

But then again, as Nighshift season two showed, Tristan was more than capable of grounded stories and a vulnerable Robert.

Finola I can easily see working on the show at almost any point.

I think Robert/Anna would have fit quite well into the Stone/Robin stuff, but I am not sure if either of them would have wanted to be the supporting player in the story. 

I agree it's more difficult to place Robert in 1993 with Luke becoming more of a family man and what not.  I do think he could have been tied into the Luke/Sonny/Mob crowd in some way.

I agree it's hard to imagine the Scorpios fitting into the canvas Riche and Labine created. I still think it was a terrible loss for the show and shouldn't have happened.

I thought Tristian Rogers was always a fan of Gloria Monty's? She brought him on, kept him on, and made him the star of the show when Tony Geary left. Wasn't Rogers going to leave at the end of 1990, and her coming back convinced him to stay one more year? Was that year so bad, that at the end of it, he not only left, but bad mouthed Gloria to ABC and helped get her fired too? I find that hard to believe. 

I thought Rogers was always going to leave at the end of 1991/ beginning of 1992 no matter what, that there was no way to get him to stay.

Edited December 4, 20231 yr by Jdee43

8 hours ago, titan1978 said:

I think the nature of Luke and Laura as characters having their original foundations built on more realistic ground by Marland and PFS made them fit in to the tone Riche and Labine were going for pretty seamlessly. At that point, I thought Robert actually needed a rest, and I cannot imagine Tristan in 1993 fitting in with what they were doing. When he came back for the hospital virus storyline I was happy to see him, and I had been sick of him back when he left.

Interesting point about the origins of Luke and Laura in comparison to Felicia and Frisco as well as Robert and Anna. Sean and Tiffany would also fall into this category. I like what Bill Levinson did with the couple in 1993 with Tiffany becoming obsessed with Lucas (which seemed to be not only grounded in her love for her nephew, but guilt she had about her sister's death) and the obsession spiraling into the destruction of her marriage through booze and pills while Sean starting carrying on with Jessica Holmes. I don't know if people generally liked that story, though. It certainly was more grounded than a lot of their other stories, but, as was the case with lots of Levinson's work, there were definitely misogynistic elements. Tiffany and Sean didn't fare too well under Labine. Weren't they mostly backburnered?

8 hours ago, carolineg said:

I think Robert/Anna would have fit quite well into the Stone/Robin stuff, but I am not sure if either of them would have wanted to be the supporting player in the story. 

I agree it's more difficult to place Robert in 1993 with Luke becoming more of a family man and what not.  I do think he could have been tied into the Luke/Sonny/Mob crowd in some way.

Now I am curious to think about how the Sonny/Luke friendship would have played out if Robert was still on the canvas. Luke being pulled back into the mob circle after being on the right side of the law would have been more compelling with Robert in the midst. I enjoyed Tony Geary's Bill when he was playing double agent during the tail end of the Cartel stuff I've seen after Bill has killed Harlan and he's trying to explain to Julia. I think that the morally conflicted stuff Geary could do well when he actually allowed the character to be torn. 

36 minutes ago, Jdee43 said:

I thought Tristian Rogers was always a fan of Gloria Monty's? She brought him on, kept him on, and made him the star of the show when Tony Geary left. Wasn't Rogers going to leave at the end of 1990, and her coming back convinced him to stay one more year? Was that year so bad, that at the end of it, he not only left, but bad mouthed Gloria to ABC and helped get her fired too? I find that hard to believe. 

I thought Rogers was always going to leave at the end of 1991/ beginning of 1992 no matter what, that there was no way to get him to stay.

I stand corrected. I thought Rogers left because of Monty, but looking at some articles you appear to be accurate. In November, 1990, Rogers was interviewed about his work on "General Hospital" and in the film "The Rescuers Down Under" where he stated he assumed he would be phased out as he wasn't looking to stay in daytime forever. He also said he had a couple projects.

A year later, in December, 1991, when it was announced he would be leaving, Monty stated she had asked him to stay another year, and now the year was up. Rogers stated he had projects he was working on that would conflict with a contract. This is probably why Wendy Riche tried to work something out with him on a recurring basis.  

4 minutes ago, dc11786 said:

Interesting point about the origins of Luke and Laura in comparison to Felicia and Frisco as well as Robert and Anna. Sean and Tiffany would also fall into this category. I like what Bill Levinson did with the couple in 1993 with Tiffany becoming obsessed with Lucas (which seemed to be not only grounded in her love for her nephew, but guilt she had about her sister's death) and the obsession spiraling into the destruction of her marriage through booze and pills while Sean starting carrying on with Jessica Holmes. I don't know if people generally liked that story, though. It certainly was more grounded than a lot of their other stories, but, as was the case with lots of Levinson's work, there were definitely misogynistic elements. Tiffany and Sean didn't fare too well under Labine. Weren't they mostly backburnered?

Now I am curious to think about how the Sonny/Luke friendship would have played out if Robert was still on the canvas. Luke being pulled back into the mob circle after being on the right side of the law would have been more compelling with Robert in the midst. I enjoyed Tony Geary's Bill when he was playing double agent during the tail end of the Cartel stuff I've seen after Bill has killed Harlan and he's trying to explain to Julia. I think that the morally conflicted stuff Geary could do well when he actually allowed the character to be torn. 

I stand corrected. I thought Rogers left because of Monty, but looking at some articles you appear to be accurate. In November, 1990, Rogers was interviewed about his work on "General Hospital" and in the film "The Rescuers Down Under" where he stated he assumed he would be phased out as he wasn't looking to stay in daytime forever. He also said he had a couple projects.

A year later, in December, 1991, when it was announced he would be leaving, Monty stated she had asked him to stay another year, and now the year was up. Rogers stated he had projects he was working on that would conflict with a contract. This is probably why Wendy Riche tried to work something out with him on a recurring basis.  

I found the Sean/Tiffany stuff quite depressing personally.  Not a bad story, but very exhausting.  Although I think the Lucas custody story could have played out longer and maybe more interestingly with BJ dying and the fallout from that.  I guess even Labine wouldn't keep kicking Bobbie when she was down though-until her own daughter steals her husband lol.   It felt like Sean was still around a bit with the Frank Smith/Sonny mob stuff, but Tiffany hardly ever appeared.  By the time they left I remember thinking they had already departed lol.  

For some reason I could see Robert being involved with the Frank Smith/Puerto Rico action.  I am not exactly sure how so I am not adding anything relevant.   There was still quite a bit of action/adventure on that side of the canvas.  I, mean, to me putting Robert in that orbit is less weird than him being the D.A. of Port Charles like his is today.

8 minutes ago, carolineg said:

I, mean, to me putting Robert in that orbit is less weird than him being the D.A. of Port Charles like his is today.

If anything, Robert and Anna should be sharing the job of Police Commissioner, or Robert should be Chief of Police, with Anna as his superior.

I was also thinking about Scorpio as being a law enforcement official during the rise of Sonny as a mob boss.  But, then I recalled all of those g-men and cops that were made to look like fools, and I'm glad Robert was spared the humiliation of being outwitted by Sonny.

Edited December 5, 20231 yr by j swift

4 minutes ago, Khan said:

If anything, Robert and Anna should be sharing the job of Police Commissioner, or Robert should be Chief of Police, with Anna as his superior.

Agreed.  But if I ran GH I wouldn't pretend the non starter Diane/Robert romance was cute or charming either.

 

1 minute ago, j swift said:

I was also thinking about Scorpio as being a law enforcement official during the rise of Sonny as a mob boss.  But, then I recalled all of those g-men and cops that were made to look like fools, and I'm glad Robert was spared the humiliation of being outwitted by Sonny.

I was thinking more in the vein of Robert helping Luke and defeating Frank Smith because he was the 'bad guy' not so much as Robert being outwitted or outplayed by Sonny/Jason.  Plus, it would have been interesting to see both Robert/Anna as an active part in Stone and Robin's story.

2 minutes ago, carolineg said:

Plus, it would have been interesting to see both Robert/Anna as an active part in Stone and Robin's story.

While I concur that Anna and Robert could've played amazing scenes in the Robin and Stone story. There's also something very Party-of-Five/90210 of playing this very melodramatic tale of two young adults on their own that felt contemporary for the time.