8 hours ago, Vee said:

Yes, Brown and Esensten for all their faults had a fairly strong Black canvas during both their AMC and Loving runs. They brought back Darnell and Debbi (with Agnes allegedly involved as well), who they'd written for on Loving and The City

They did not bring back Debbi on Loving - Debbi brought back Debbi. In her autobiography Debbi writes that her marriage to Charles Dutton was imploding and she needed to go back to work - fast. She called up the executives at ABC/AMC to let them know she was available for hire, and would be interested in going back. Few days later they called back and told them they had no room at AMC, but they would make room for her at Loving. Debbi accepted.

If it was for Debbi making that call, who knows if Brown and Esensten would have created that Black canvas on Loving.

2 minutes ago, TheyStartedOnSoaps said:

They did not bring back Debbi on Loving - Debbi brought back Debbi. In her autobiography Debbi writes that her marriage to Charles Dutton was imploding and she needed to go back to work - fast. She called up the executives at ABC/AMC to let them know she was available for hire, and would be interested in going back. Few days later they called back and told them they had no room at AMC, but they would make room for her at Loving. Debbi accepted.

If it was for Debbi making that call, who knows if Brown and Esensten would have created that Black canvas on Loving.

I love her memoir!!!!! I think I've read it now 3 times! 

On 1/25/2025 at 4:25 PM, Darn said:

 

Level Rambin on AMC “the most toxic set I’ve ever been on”

I’m real curious as to which men she’s referring to…
 

 

I remember her and Jeff Branson openly dating around the time they paired Jonathan and Lily onscreen 🤢 I hope she writes that book eventually.

The messiness of mid - late 00s AMC era is another reason I have a strong distaste for JHC as an EP.

5 hours ago, TheyStartedOnSoaps said:

They did not bring back Debbi on Loving - Debbi brought back Debbi.

I'm not talking about her hiring at Loving. What I said is they brought both of them back in 2008 on AMC. Which they did, along with Agnes allegedly consulting. B&E was the team in place for that very publicized return, and what I was saying is a large and prominent Black canvas was visible both in that (very flawed) era and in their time at Loving.

6 hours ago, All My Shadows said:

Was it B&E who also brought back Mimi and did that whole story with Lamman Rucker? I know I can easily just look this sht up myself, but

IIRC that and Livia and Tom's return, etc. was all McTavish. She did know the show, even as she broke it.

Edited January 27Jan 27 by Vee

3 hours ago, Vee said:

I'm not talking about her hiring at Loving. What I said is they brought both of them back in 2008 on AMC. Which they did, along with Agnes allegedly consulting. B&E was the team in place for that very publicized return, and what I was saying is a large and prominent Black canvas was visible both in that (very flawed) era and in their time at Loving.

IIRC that and Livia and Tom's return, etc. was all McTavish. She did know the show, even as she broke it.

It was. 

Even though they made a poor choice with Frankie on The City B&E also gave focus to Jacob, Angie and Lorraine. They also tried to use black characters on GL, which never went anywhere (a number of writers tried after them too but someone repeatedly shut that down).

On 1/27/2025 at 8:47 AM, TheyStartedOnSoaps said:

They did not bring back Debbi on Loving - Debbi brought back Debbi. In her autobiography Debbi writes that her marriage to Charles Dutton was imploding and she needed to go back to work - fast. She called up the executives at ABC/AMC to let them know she was available for hire, and would be interested in going back. Few days later they called back and told them they had no room at AMC, but they would make room for her at Loving. Debbi accepted.

If it was for Debbi making that call, who knows if Brown and Esensten would have created that Black canvas on Loving.

!!! And I am happy that she did make the call. I always thought it was a huge mistake for Debbi and Darnell to leave the show in the first place! 

I wasn't a live viewer of Loving/The City but once I did watch a good chunk of episodes from YouTube I was floored. 

Generations get much praise for breaking barriers with black talent, but Loving should always be a part of the conversation too. And B&E deserves more recognition for being progressive creators.  So underrated.

On 1/27/2025 at 3:45 PM, Vee said:

I'm not talking about her hiring at Loving. What I said is they brought both of them back in 2008 on AMC. Which they did, along with Agnes allegedly consulting. B&E was the team in place for that very publicized return, and what I was saying is a large and prominent Black canvas was visible both in that (very flawed) era and in their time at Loving.

Yes but the Black Canvas B&E wrote on Loving was only because Debbi was the one that initiated it. Before Angie arrived in Corinth in 1993, the only Black character in Loving's 10 year history (1983 to 1993) was Minnie (Egypt nurse maid). 

I don't think the character of Angie would've crossed B&E minds, if they didn't write for the character of Angie on Loving/The City prior to B&E arrival in Pine Valley. So again, it was Debbie who brought Angie back to the creative minds at ABC. NOT those ABC executives or writers. 

 

Edited January 28Jan 28 by TheyStartedOnSoaps

1 hour ago, TheyStartedOnSoaps said:

Yes but the Black Canvas B&E wrote on Loving was only because Debbi was the one that initiated it. 

Again, I'm not crediting B&E with creating the Black canvas at Loving or hiring Debbi Morgan there. Debbi came on under Taggert/Guza at Loving in '93, IIRC. I am saying B&E, for all their many flaws, had a long history of using characters of color in heavy frontburner story at these shows. Which they did, not only during Loving 1995 (where they did in fact bring on Maggie Rush as Lorraine, along with her daughter) and later at The City with mixed results, but with using many Black characters in AMC '08.

Edited January 29Jan 29 by Vee

7 minutes ago, Vee said:

Again, I'm not crediting B&E with creating the Black canvas at Loving or hiring Debbi Morgan there. Debbi came on under Taggert/Guza at Loving in '93, IIRC. I am saying B&E, for all their many flaws, had a long history of using characters of color in heavy frontburner story at these shows. Which they did, not only during Loving 1995 (where they did in fact bring on Maggie Rush as Lorraine, along with her daughter) and later at The City with mixed results, but with using many Black characters in AMC '08.

That was only AFTER Debbi Morgan was on the show 

3 minutes ago, TheyStartedOnSoaps said:

That was only AFTER Debbi Morgan was on the show 

That's right, it was. Doesn't change the fact that they utilized her, Darnell and many other Black characters well on Loving. And made a point of doing so at AMC.

Getting popcorn & a drink & settling it to see how many volleys this is gonna go!

Y'know, ABCD COULD have made room for her on AMC.  Or they could've just said, "Sorry, gurl, ain't no room at THIS inn!  Try CBS!"

Instead, they stuck Debbi and Darnell on (NOT) LOVING (IT), a show nobody in charge had given two shits about since 1984.  A show so awful, its' own co-creator and original HW left after two years AND TOOK HIS DAMN NAME OFF THE SHOW.  That should tell you how much cache Debbi Morgan still had with ABCD at that time.

Edited January 29Jan 29 by Khan

3 minutes ago, Khan said:

Instead, they stuck Debbi and Darnell on (NOT) LOVING (IT), a show nobody in charge had given two shits about since 1984.  Which should tell you how much cache Debbi Morgan still had with ABCD at that time.

Of course, the only reason Debbi got in at Loving and took on such a major role is because the show was inherently weak in terms of leading characters and because Agnes still had a major stake in it. But it worked for the show and for her, and she had good story there - Debbi (and Angie) and Darnell as Jacob/Jesse with her remained in the audience consciousness for the remainder of the '90s, including then hopscotching to PC for several more years as Ellen Burgess while Darnell began to recur as 'Ghost' Jesse in the same timeframe. And they were both remembered when '08 rolled around, which served both them and AMC well.

(What's really wild ofc is if you remember that allegedly, Guza and Millee Taggert[?] had initially planned to pair Angie with Trucker.)

Edited January 29Jan 29 by Vee

2 minutes ago, Vee said:

(What's really wild ofc is if you remember that allegedly, Guza and Millee Taggert[?] had initially planned to pair Angie with Trucker.)

I dunno, it might've worked?  But I would've exposed Jacob as a bigamist and paired Angie with Buck, lol.

Just now, Khan said:

I dunno, it might've worked?  But I would've exposed Jacob as a bigamist and paired Angie with Buck, lol.

Buck was so fine. I still remember half the forum going wild for Phillip Brown in 2020 when we all watched (or in my case, rewatched for the first time since '95) the full arc of the Loving Murders. It's too bad his career and/or life stalled out.

I just know that a lot of Angie's early LOV material (which I think is still on YT) featured her clashing with Trucker, who became a paternal figure to 'delinquent' Frankie. I wonder how far ABC would've let them go with it, especially since Trucker was the hottest male lead on that little show at the time. But then Agnes took over as HW again, they brought in Geoffrey Ewing (and later Darnell) and that was that.