As The World Turns Discussion Thread

[Soapsuds]

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[DRW50]

Whenever I think of Thanksgiving, I think of ATWT, and the P&G soaps in general. I hope everyone had a happy or peaceful day, whether on your own or with a crowd.

[DRW50]

Another episode I don't remember seeing before (the next episode, Kirk and Ellie's wedding, used to be on Youtube). 

Whoever wrote this was either not a big fan of the Kirk/Ellie pairing or knew a lot of fans weren't, as it is littered with moments that remind viewers how important Iva was in making Kirk a better person, characters saying they thought she would be marrying Kirk, and characters like Meg pointing out how odd it is that she is the maid of honor. Kirk's ex-wife saying that her agreeing just shows what a special family the Snyders are amuses me. 

Some nice moments with Julie and Andy too, fortunately not much of Courtney clinging.

I love the ensemble feel of the episode as well. 

There's a new scene in the closing credits, which you don't get very often during this period of the show.

And as a contrast you have a lot of island passion with Frannie and Daryl. 

@slick jones You may already have her listed (I searched and didn't find her but I'm not great at the searches) - Maggie Task as Mabel.

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Edited November 25, 2023 by DRW50

[P.J.]

Poor Iva, constantly being stuck making those around her comfortable with their lack of concern for her feelings. I'd forgotten she was Ellie's maid of honor. UGH. Is it just ATWT that had this obsession with exes proving there are no hurt feelings with weird proofs of "acceptance"? Attending weddings/naming of godparents/etc? It's twisted that Iva was forced to be in both her sister's weddings. And I keep thinking of Carly having to sit through Jack's wedding to Janet with this plastic smile on her face while Jack seemed to be more focused on her than his bride.

[DeliaIrisFan]

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The Christmas Eve 1984 episode has been (re?) posted on YouTube.  The stories don't seem that engaging, the holiday spirit is a bit anemic compared to later in the decade, and Nancy and Chris are still in Arizona, but Calhoun/Bedsow-Horgan are clearly trying to right the ship.

It was interesting seeing Cal (and hearing about Jay, from Julianne Moore's predecessor) pre–Douglas Cummings.  I can't believe Cal lasted almost a year after this episode.  Was the audience supposed to root for Diana firing and evicting him on Xmas (Brian urged her to do so, and they were going into business with Lisa, so that was my guess), or was Cal meant to be at least somewhat sympathetic?

I could have sworn this was the same Xmas episode that used to be on YouTube, when Kim had one of her "open houses" pre-Marland (I had totally assumed that expression wa one of Marland's touches, but I guess it was something people actually said in conversation at the time.  I remember when I first started watching ATWT holiday episodes on YouTube/DVD, I had to Google "holiday open house" once I realized Kim wasn't selling her house).  I do remember Kim and Bob were a couple in that other episode, whatever year that was.  How long were they together in the '80s before their wedding?  The stuff with John and David saving Dusty from the mystery disease also seems familiar—I would have figured that was the same episode I was thinking of—but I definitely do not remember the ending with Kim and Bob thinking they heard Santa's sleigh.

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Edited November 25, 2023 by DeliaIrisFan

[Soaplovers]

The situation with Iva is sadly a realistic thing in families.. especially back in the 80s/90s where sometimes the survivor (Iva) had to deal with being in the same room with their abuser and/or the person that hurt them.

From what I recall, one of the factors that led to Kirk/Iva breaking up was when Iva's cousin (Lenore.. I think was her name) told her that Kirk was her ex husband that left her and the kids.  So Iva rightfully told off Kirk and tried to put distance between her and Kirk.. which is a healthy response.

However, Ellie decided to go for Kirk herself at the expense of her sister Iva's feelings.. and Iva, still in people pleasing mode, tried to be the bigger person.

When viewing Iva's character arc from late 1985 into the the 1990s, I viewed Iva as having intense guilt for running away and leaving the family without a word to anyone.  Those first episodes when Emma/Iva came face to face was very cold and intense.. and I sometimes wonder if Iva being 'the bigger person' was a way for her to make up for deserting the family.

I don't know if Marland intentionally was showing that the survivor of abuse (Iva) was still being abused... but instead of it being physical/sexual.. it was more emotional abuse by the family.   

[DRW50]

Seeing Kim and Bob this close confuses me on the timelines because there are a few episodes I thought were from early 1985 where she fled to the Stewart cabin and was in tears because she didn't want to betray her sister's memory by getting back together with Bob. Yet they already seem to be together in this episode (which is a nice, understated Thanksgiving episode - how timely)

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I think Cal was meant to be an anti-hero, based on the material I've seen with Cal and Maggie.

I liked Maggie (much more than Doug Marland did apparently), but so many of these 1984 and 1985 episodes have her weeping and wailing. A chore to sit through.

I wonder about that as well because not only did Iva have to suffer and sacrifice, but when she did something for herself, she was likely to get frozen out, like when Emma was upset that she began dating John.

Part was likely not intended (I doubt Marland ever expected Josh/Meg to get big the way they did - I can't even remember how much of their biggest material was during the strike), but some element did seem to be about persecution with Iva.

[P.J.]

I hadn't really thought about it in those terms, because it wasn't that her family didn't believe Iva. Seth, Caleb and Holden were never really comfortable with Josh hanging around (from what I recall). I do think part of the reason Iva always compromised was her lingering problems with self-esteem. It was like part of her was frozen at thirteen, and stuck at looking to Emma for approval. Not only did the relationship with John cause problems, but her keeping the Aaron secret. It was the only secret she kept in the decade she was on the show, and you'd have thought she'd murdered someone from Emma and Lily's reactions.

No, I'm sure Marland wasn't thinking in terms of Iva still enduring the abuse. He was very into characters getting therapy and being "whole" again. Hopefully, had he continued with the show, he could have given Iva a better sense of self than she ended up getting. 

BTW, it's around the second anniversary of Lisa Brown's passing.

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[DRW50]

Yes - in the episode above, you can see Seth flinching a little when Meg and Josh are being romantic. I sometimes wonder how many of these touches were added by the actors...

I would love to be able to ask Marland for his full thoughts on Iva, because even when Iva did what he always preached in the writing (intensive therapy), she was still punished - it was, IIRC, her intense therapy and pulling back from Kirk that helped lead him to Ellie. 

I'll never stop missing Lisa. I am drawn to her work as Iva any time I rewatch these episodes, even in those last few years like 1993 that have material I loathed (the custody battle).

[DeliaIrisFan]

Ah, thanks for sharing the Thanksgiving episode.  This Tom recast didn't last long...  Also jarring to go from Brian proposing to Juliet (just before) Thanksgiving to Brian/Barbara by Christmas, not least because I can never quite watch Pinter as a romantic lead without thinking of his Grant Harrison on AW.

Was Maggie still on the show by the time Marland became head writer?  I can't remember seeing her in those episodes.  I liked what I saw of her in these episodes, but I couldn't follow what was going on with the wedding(s) of Diana/Cal/Maggie/Frank.  Near as I could tell, the judge was giving baby Jill to anyone who was married (to anyone) in time for the custody hearing(?) - like she was a honeymoon sweepstakes prize.

I also can't keep track of the Andropolouses.  I found myself wondering if Steve's father (whom I always assumed was Kim's ex, but I guess that was Frank's father/Steve's uncle?) was still living in Greece when Steve got arrested.

[DRW50]

Pinter seems alright to me but lacking in a certain spark. I still might have kept him, but all the other McColls gone I can understand the choice. 

I can't ever remember whether he is the one who wrote Maggie and Frank out. Some said she left right before his work began. What surprised me was that she never visited and I did not ever hear her mentioned when I started watching ATWT (around 1989 or 1990). I don't know how often they ever mentioned Cricket but I think it was a little more than Maggie. The first time I ever heard of Maggie was when I got the anniversary book in '96 and there was this woman in photos and synopses.

[P.J.]

Nick (Kim's husband) and Steve were half-brothers. Frank was their cousin. Steve's father was Michael Christopher, who had been convicted of being a Russian spy (or something.) It's unclear from my brief persual of the book when Steve became aware that he had a different father, before or after Nick's death.

I'm not really sure---but Bob was having feelings for Kim around the time she got involved with Nick Andropolous. He died in '82. I have this vague recollection of Kim and Bob being a couple that was always teased between other romances. (Sort of like Carly/Jack but a lot less dysfunctional...lol) 

[slick jones]

Thanks @DRW50. I have Mabel but I don' think I have a year for Mggie Task's appearance.

 

[DramatistDreamer]

Can victims of abuse ever be made fully whole emotionally? Or do they learn to live with the scars? I don’t know whether any writer worth his or her salt would simplify a character into being completely “fixed” from therapy. I don’t think a writer would want a character to remain in a permanent state of brokenness but the idea that a rape, especially at the hands of someone the person once trusted and liked, ever really goes away. 
At the time. I originally watched these episodes when they were first aired on television, I probably didn’t think too deeply about the psychological scars but while watching again on YouTube as an adult, there were scenes that jumped out at me.

I guess Iva’s intense therapy could be viewed as an alienating force behind her and Kirk’s breakup (were they fully broken up when Kirk and Ellie started seeing each other?) or Kirk and Ellie could be viewed as intensely selfish people who wanted what they wanted at the time and jumped into a relationship without thinking of Iva or whether they were even compatible. There were some odd family dynamics between the Snyder siblings from the get-go. Holden and Caleb seemed to go back and forth on coveting each other’s women. There was an odd jealousy that Meg had toward Iva (Meg, even admitted once that she was upset that Josh had been close to Iva (before the rape, which Meg didn’t know about at that time) and he paid Meg no attention when she stayed on Uncle Henry’s farm. Of course, it was obvious that because Iva left the farm when Meg was so young, they had no bond. Meg seemed to resent the prodigal daughter status that Iva would eventually receive from Emma, once their initial issues were resolved. Neither did Ellie and Iva have much of a bond either. (Meg and Ellie were the two Snyder that never seemed to have any guilt over leaving the farm). Ellie was portrayed as wanting to have what Iva had, at least in the men she had serious relationships with after arriving in Oakdale. I guess people could look at Iva as an example of someone sabotaging themselves or that the writing was punishing her somehow, but I wonder why people don’t pay as much attention to the selfishness of some of the people around her.

 

I am not sure that some of those therapy scenes were so much about Iva punishing herself as they were about her struggles to shed her guilt over actually having a good rapport and friendship with Josh before he raped her, which no doubt led her to doubt her own judgment. Those scenes of her questioning herself seemed realistic, for the times anyway.

I also think that soap writers, for better or for worse, tended toward the melodramatic and Iva’s emotional struggles with self esteem and how they impacted her romantic relationships were highly melodramatic.

[Paul Raven]

Pretty sure it was after.

Nick's dying wish that Steve and Betsy not get involved -what was that about? Odd thing to think about when you're dying and even odder that it would be acted upon.

What was the background to that?