HBO: Game of Thrones

[ThePrinceOfSunspear]

In the books it's not portrayed that way at all but okay....

Incest factor aside Jaime and Cersei's relationship actually isn't that poisonous. Yes it has ups and downs but the books make clear that they've both done power plays on each other and used each other in various ways....

That scene was just disturbing and no where did I see consensual. Nor did I even see the "grey" area that some shows have provided (See Days Ejami). To me this was just pure rape and just wrong.

[DRW50]

I guess to me Joffrey is the product of sickness and toxicity, and the lies of their relationship (the lies nearly killed Bran and set loose Catelyn, which led to the destruction of the Starks and caused chaos throughout the North and King's Landing). Having him rape her seems less like proving something that needs to be proved and just going for lurid shock value. I've heard fans complain about how the show sexualizes violence when it doesn't have to, and I've understood why they did sometimes (I think having Dany/Drogo as consensual from the start would have been a huge can of worms, although I don't know if they handled it that well in the show either), but this time, I just don't get it. One of the other reasons this reminds me of soaps is that soaps also got into these "heart of darkness" type moments to show how edgy they are, and the characters pay the price.

For instance, if they are saying Jaime will rape Cersei, but won't rape other women, that sends a very bad message in its own right, because it says that men only rape certain types of women.

Anyway, more interviews from the director and NJW.

http://www.thedailybeast.com/articles/2014/04/20/game-of-thrones-most-wtf-sex-scene-nikolaj-coster-waldau-on-jaime-lannister-s-darkest-hour.html

http://www.hollywoodreporter.com/live-feed/game-thrones-director-controversial-scene-697733

Edited April 21, 2014 by DRW50

[Vee]

Of course it's poisonous. They're brother and sister and they trust no one and nothing but their own; they were driven to the depths of that dysfunction by their tyrannical, domineering father who has been emotionally disembowling them for years. They've made at least one demented, psychotic child. I'm talking about the television show when I talk about them - they have no functional, real relationship with anyone else (Jaime's relationship with Brienne is still embryonic at best). They fucked at Winterfell and Jaime casually tried to kill Bran for seeing them together. They joked about killing John Arryn over the same secret. They use and abuse each other.

Even though the books aren't IMO relevant to my talking about the tweaked continuity of the show, I've read the book excerpt and I don't agree that it would be better. I think the TV scene was harsh and abrupt and probably unnecessary, but I understood the point it was trying to get across and I think if they'd done the original scene, with her begging him and saying 'oh, you're home' as they swoon and copulate over their dead son, it would have been sheer camp. I think the violence of the scene in this episode gets across what they really are together, which is sick and wrong and terrible for each other. As was made abundantly clear for both of them last year, everything about their family is bad for Jaime and Cersei, especially Cersei, who's been sold off as chattel at leaast twice in her life.

And I don't think it's a comparison with E.J. and Sami on DAYS - E.J. held her at gunpoint and raped her in the passenger seat of a car. Jaime and Cersei's scene was definitely vaguely consensual at best, but it has a context. And I heard her saying 'it's not right' but I saw her pawing at his clothes - I thought she had succumbed to his advances while hating herself for it, but I also thought it wasn't shot clearly enough. At least, that's how I saw it. It was awful and I question the wisdom of the choice, or at least the pacing. But I do think it was intended to be awful. And I think people who thought Jaime was on a 'hero's journey' over the last couple years and are outraged by this have forgotten the pilot. They can't reduce the character to another sad-eyed antihero, and they definitely can't excuse what he and his sister are to each other. IMO it's not some great, equal relationship, some solace - it's disease. That's what that scene represents, the ugliest end-state of those characters as they are together.

Edited April 21, 2014 by Vee

[DRW50]

I think one of the other things that bothers me is that Jaime has always been opposed to rape, even losing a hand to stop a rape. We can say, "He doesn't see this as rape," but many rapists don't see it as rape. And it just reinforces that the character is as much of a monster as so many other men on this show.

I understand what you're saying, and I may be unfair to the show, but this just upsets me a lot because it's something that is so damaging and I feel like it was done to shock and as a tease. Every time I see this described as "taboo" by the press I want to retch.

I trusted Jaime as a character to not be one of those "no means yes" people. I knew he was a terrible man in many ways, but I trusted that. And if that's rewritten, then I'm not sure what will be next. It makes me fear for the integrity of other characters.

[Vee]

I don't know if either Jaime or Cersei saw it as rape - I didn't see it as necessarily rape by the end of the scene, myself. I thought it was abruptly and a bit poorly done, but I suspect a lot of scenes like that have played out in their lives together. I doubt that's the first time they've gotten that harsh with each other.

Jaime has a monster in him like so many other characters on the show, he does monstrous things, but he's also pathetic. Cersei is a monster but that's not all she is; she's also pathetic and like Jaime, a fascinating, quasi-tragic character despite how loathsome she can be - there is a horribly wounded nobility to just how wrongheaded she is, what made her that way and what she has had to become in order to live. And what Jaime did with her tonight was pathetic, too. I did read those articles, and I think what Nikolaj Coster-Waldau was trying to convey is that it's just symptomatic of their awful life together - this kind of ugliness is what their family has bred and what they breed. I see people online who actually root for Cersei and Jaime's romance, find it functional, or think that Jaime was going to have some strictly heroic track going forward and I think they're off their nut. That's bringing something subjectively personal to the characters which is not a part of who they are or the story the show is telling, in my eyes.

The side issue is that there's always been a segment of the fandom which expects progressive conversation generated on the Internet to be fixed to and imprinted upon a quasi-medieval world, or any show on television, the same way a handful of people were offended by True Detective being a show fixed around two men, even though their misogyny and fatal flaws were explicitly burnt into the texture of the show and condemned. That's not gonna happen and IMO it shouldn't. I dunno if the show will address Jaime and Cersei's ugliness tonight going forward. In the universe of the show it may or may not make sense for that to happen. I do think the way it was shot was mishandled, but I think Coster-Waldau's interpretation of the scene and the characters is the same as mine.

As for the rest of the episode, I thought it was pretty good. Especially Tywin quickly taking Tommen under his wing, and Cersei sort of crumbling internally to see it. Soon Tommen will be just like her and Jaime, and Tyrion. It was all in her eyes. Also, Podrick's goodbye was heartbreaking.

I didn't call Littlefinger being behind the assassination. I fear for Sansa. God knows what he's up to.

Edited April 21, 2014 by Vee

[quartermainefan]

Cersei didn't seen like she was screaming her head off for the security guards right outside to save her. She said no because she knew it was wrong, but once he pressed she seemed into it yet fighting being into it at the same time. And he clearly knew that and knows how she thinks, and he will apologize because that is the thing to do but they both will continue to love each other no matter what. Considering these are the only two people on the entire show who truly do love each other and are together not for political reasons but in spite of them, I don't see what the problem is here. They are the sick brother and sister of cruelty, why do people want them acting normal?

[DRW50]

I agree that there are some fans who expect some type of progressive beliefs from the show and can never accept that it won't be that way (for instance, people who are bothered that Loras has to hit on or be involved with every queer man on the show). And I think the show has made it clear that rape is a major part of this world. I'm sure there are fans who thought Jaime was going to become a hero and save the day. And those fans weren't necessarily owed anything - just because he changed in season 3 didn't mean that would continue. Characters grow and regress.

I guess what I question is - is this true to his character, does the show view this as rape, is this true to his relationship with Cersei, and why was this done?

When I read the interviews with NJW and the director of the episode I'm not even completely sure if they entirely knew why the scene was done or how comfortable they felt filming it.

I think there's a danger in using sexual violence to try to jumpstart characters or story arcs. It means the characters just become pitstops for sexual assault. They have no other purpose.

Anyway, I've probably already said too much too many times. So I'll stop. I don't want to ruin anyone's enjoyment of the show. I will keep my views to myself and if I post anymore about the show it won't be about this. I'm not sure whether I will or not.

[Vee]

I tried looking online at some of the criticism but when I got to "it ruins the beautiful Cersei and Jaime relationship," I closed that tab.

It was gonna take more than a road trip with Brienne to fix what's wrong with Jaime Lannister. The question is if he'll get there.

As for whether it was true to Jaime or their relationship, IMO yes because I think they've done this sort of [!@#$%^&*] plenty before, these sort of ugly, quasi-consensual scenes even if we as the audience have not been privvy to it. From what we've seen on the show they're sick people. But that's me. Nobody wants you to keep your views to yourself, though. It's okay to disagree.

Edited April 21, 2014 by Vee

[Cheap21]

Was confused by Jamie and Cersei. Was that considered rape?

[Juliajms]

Considered rape by whom? Pretty sure the answer is going to depend on who you ask, as this thread shows.

I had no idea we were supposed to think that Brienne is in love with Jaime. I did think it was interesting that he took note of the talk between she and Cersei. I think he knows that Cersei will come for Brienne, if she gets the chance.

I was really pissed when Darrio killed the horse. Horses do not fair well on this show, which I suppose is realistic. Couldn't he have aimed for the idiot on the horse though?

Tywin continues to be a piece of work. He couldn't even let grooming the next King wait one day. Poor Tommen, you can tell he's a sweet boy, I hate to see him on the Iron Throne. I think he's very lucky that the Tyrell's still want an alliance. At least he'll have a smart, kind wife.

[Cheap21]

I was wondering what the director's intentions were with that scene and after reading his thoughts on it and how it was written in the book, the answer would be no that it wasnt intended to be viewed as rape. Im with Vee in that I was under the impression that this type of sex wasnt something unfamilair to both characters. It was unfortunate that the scene ended as abruptly as it did, as seeing Cersei a few seconds more wouldnt have left it as ambigious as it appeared.

[ThePrinceOfSunspear]

This is exactly why I hate the topic of rape and when its used in shows....I honestly didn't view the whole Sami/EJ thing as rape. What he did was wrong but it wasn't rape. And yet despite understanding the twisted nature of Jaime and Cersei's relationship I do believe that what Jaime did to Cersei was rape. I'll have to watch the scene again in order to fully process it but my gut reaction was this was wrong.

I didn't get any sense that Cersei while saying "NO" was also fighting her desire to be with Jaime. I didn't get any sense of desire on Cersei's part. So that ruined it for me. Even in the books there is that hint which completely changes how I view it in the book.

I do agree tho that the scene with Tommen and Lord Tywin was incredible. Both in terms of dialogue, the family dynamics, and the utter shattering of Cersei's psyche to witness her son being taken away from her....

[Juliajms]

I thought it was interesting that at first Cersei seemed like she was trying to seduce Jaime into killing Tyrion. Then she pulled away and said "not here". I don't know, I guess I don't feel compelled to label this encounter one way or the other. What matters to me is how Cersei sees it going forward and if it changes Jaime and Cersei in any way.

I wonder what Petyr's planning for Sansa? I guess she's slightly better off with him, but I think she' still in big trouble.

I'm sorry they've made the wildings so brutal. I can't really root for them to get safely south when they're eating people in front of their children.

[ThePrinceOfSunspear]

This article that DRW50 sent me just reminded me of the actual dialogue and why I'm so annoyed/angered by this change....

[Antoyne]

So I just binge watched Seasons 1 and 2...

I'm hooked. It started out slow, but seriously from Ned's death onwards it's been amazing.

I shouldn't love the Lannisters, but I do minus Joffrey of course. They're cruel, attractive, rich and they don't give a !@#$%^&*]. I love it.

Dany is a favorite of mine but her story was very uneven 2nd season, though I was pleased with her in the finale.

Tyrion is the star of this show HANDS DOWN.