HBO: Game of Thrones

[quartermainefan]

This is why I refuse to read the books! Books can ruin a TV show but the show can never ruin the books and I will come back to them when the show ends. I love murders and it would suck to know in advance whodunit.

Which brings me to the old feeble guy that Cersei sent to the kitchen. It has been established he went to the kitchen, which is presumably where the food was. Cersei threatened his life and this might have been a way to knock her off her game. Other than that, I still am drawn to Shae because Tyrion broke her heart and the show took great care to not let us ever see her actually leave. It could have been an attempt to frame Tyrion for the murder. The thing that doesn't make sense is how did The Fool know what was going on unless he was in on it. He could have been an accomplice and his concern for Sansa does go hand in hand with Shae's. Getting Sansa away might have been part of the plan.

[Vee]

I can see part of the motive if it's who is being heavily hinted at in what I've seen, but I can't understand why they'd do it - and I'm spoilering this simply because if it was me I'd guess what I'm talking about -

Supposedly there is more to it, but I don't know how much yet. I'm sure I'll still enjoy whatever is behind this unraveling and being revealed. I just know Kotaku ruined my day a little by talking about stuff you can clearly see in the episode if you rewatch, as I was planning to, calling it "spec" and then swerving to a GOT wiki entry on a specific element - not a future plot development per se, but something that could not possibly be brought into the equation and guessed unless someone has read ahead. Specifically,

When that got mentioned it was clear their article was not just "spec".

Now as to actual spoiler territory, this is all I'll say about it and I don't want to discuss it further because I don't want to be spoiled, really:

[Juliajms]

I wonder what turned Cersei against Pycell? She always sort of humored him with just a bit of disdain. Maybe it's just the drinking that Jaime mentioned. Anyway, I was glad that she sent him away. I liked that it was Cersei and Jaime with Joff at the end. Yes, he was a little monster who had it coming, but at least his parents were with him at the last.

Vee- Thanks for answering my question. I'll say no more on that front.

On the Bolton front, it's interesting that neither Bolton nor his bastard (can't think of his name) seem to fear each other. I'd be terrified if I were either one of them. I really need someone to come in and save the north from those monsters.

Not sure what I think of Bran's story. This feels like the weak link to me. The one part of this show that is completely predictable if you've ever read this type of fantasy novel. Maybe GRRM will prove me wrong.

[DRW50]

For me Arya's story is the main weak link - I just can't connect to her and it feels like a lot of telling us how we're supposed to feel. I enjoy Bran's, mostly because I like the whole supernatural, otherworldly element of the character, even if the story seems to be kind of stalled out. And i think Osha's one of the best characters on the show.

Edited April 15, 2014 by DRW50

[rhinohide]

Thank you for sharing that.

[quartermainefan]

To me the weak link is Dany and her isolated dragon story. There is no chance anything bad can happen to her since that would make no sense conidering we watched her for three years trying to find a boat. Eventually she will find a boat big enough for her infinity army. Every year they just introduce another episodic little situation in what is a perpetual stall on the part of the writer. Arya and Jon Snow are almost as untouchable as she is, but the fact they interact with the occasional other member of the cast at least exposes them to risk---theoretical since we know they cannot kill Jon Snow until they explain why we followed him for three years.

[Vee]

Looking at it now, it is clear Daenerys's long story is her slog through the various Free Cities of Essos (or Pentos or whatever the hell it is). She's hit them each one by one, starting with Qarth and making her way uptown, so to speak. I'm fine with it, but I'm ready for this new one to be the last.

Arya's story has picked up for me considerably. It didn't get going for me last year until she found the Brotherhood. I can only see her and the Hound palling around for so long, though - they are great together but I guess I'm just tired of her perpetual isolation.

[quartermainefan]

The probem with Dany's story is there is literally nothing at risk. She won't die, she can't die because that would be an illogical end to her story and every character in it. They would all just vanish and every minute up until now would have no point as a consequence. So therefore she has nothing at stake.

[Juliajms]

I think she could die before the end of the series, but I agree, not until the final showdown. To me Dany's story is interesting because we're watching her change from someone who was abused by her brother and sold to Drogo, into someone who can lead. I also like it that she's not too perfect. Once someone has betrayed her, she doesn't have much in the way of mercy for them. For example, sealing Doreah into that chamber in season 2 seemed so harsh.

I guess I don't feel like keeping her on the other side of the world is really a stall. The dragons need to grow, Dany needs a real army if she's going to take Westeros and ships to get there. Right now she still doesn't have enough soldiers, she doesn't have any allies in Westeros and she doesn't really know how to be a queen. I feel it would be a cheat, if we didn't see how she learns these things.

Why not? They killed Robb. I think we're following Jon to get an eye on what's going on in the north, but we also have Sam and Bran for that, so Jon could go.

I feel like Rickon will be important in some way, but I have no idea how. Maybe he'll be lord of Winterfell when all the wars are over.

[DRW50]

I think Dany's story is about a young person struggling with power and with her own arrogance and confidence, mistaking that for true leadership.

She's a strong person, but that isn't enough (yet). And she is still learning this.

If you think about it, every story on the show that is along those lines ends horribly. Joffrey. Robb. Theon.

Dany is the exception to the rule, as she's managed to overcome several moments of near-death and defeat. But it's an ongoing process.

[quartermainefan]

Some of Joffrey's greatest hits

 

[Juliajms]

I don't think Dany is anything like these characters. Hell, I don't even think these characters have much in common with each other. Joff was entitled little sadist, who thought he could terrorize the population into submission.

I never saw Robb as arrogant, he knew he was the underdog and he didn't even want the iron throne. He didn't have the will to rule Westeros and had already agreed to an alliance with Renly and would have probably done the same with Stannis. All he really wanted to do was go home and be the King in the North, which basically meant being Lord of Winterfell.

His mistake was falling in love and not realizing how treacherous Tywin and Lord Walder could be or that Bolton would stab him in the back. And of course, he was cursed as a kinslayer when he killed Lord Karstark, so that didn't bode well for him either. Oh, and then there was the part where Mellisandre offered his name and Joff's name to The Lord of Light with Gandrey's (King's) blood. Guess Robb was cursed coming and going.

Like I said before Dany started as a slave on her knees, that's the big difference. She is a leader because people chose to follow her willingly based on her abilities. She's made some mistakes but at least she learns from them, unlike Joff. She also takes responsibility for the welfare of her people, unlike Joff. The fact that Ser Barriston and Ser Jorah think she should rule is pretty telling. I'm not sure even Cersei thought Joff should rule.

If anything, I'd say this story has a bias towards people who are in a bad situation at the start and then build themselves up, instead of having everything handed to them only by right of birth. That's what Dany and Jon have in common. It also seems possible that Theon falls into this group. It's too soon to say, but he started off a hostage of the Starks, now he's being tortured, I think redemption is possible if he survives.

[Vee]

Robb was a good man. But he, like his father, like most of the elder Starks, didn't understand how to play the game to survive. He was noble and idealistic and ultimately paralyzed. In order to survive in Westeros you must compromise yourself, on some level. Unless you're Daenerys Targaryen, Mother of Dragons. Daenerys compromises herself in other ways, but it has nothing to do with the conventional moralism of the civilized Seven Kingdoms. Daenerys is a conqueror who must learn to conquer, but in the end, anything she doesn't like she can incinerate and burn off the face of the world.

Arya has learned how to survive in her own way, Sansa is starting to do the same. Bran is sort of the kid who's run off and joined the hippies for the moment, but the talent he is cultivating will make him indispensable. Like Jon who's been beyond the Wall, like Daenerys who is making her way across the far continent, Bran has gone to ground and is reconnecting with some basic, primal truths and powers that supercede those of the civilized world of Westeros. But IMO the only way to truly survive, for any of those three (Jon, Daenerys, Bran) or anyone else, is to meld their bone-deep power and knowledge with the cold cunning and calculation of the smartest people in the proper kingdom. For me, House Tyrell is among the smartest in the game. Tyrion used to be, but he got bamboozled by his infatuation with Shae and his inability to do the (potentially murderous) necessary to overrule his father and sister's machinations - for now. Joffrey was just a homicidal little idiot.

Edited April 16, 2014 by Vee

[DRW50]

Robb was a kind man and a just man, but he broke his vow to people who were extremely dangerous, even as his mother (who had known them all her life) begged him not to. He essentially humiliated them. I think that's arrogant, even if he only did it for love.

All of these characters were thrust into power at a very young age, through circumstances they had no control over. Dany overcame her inexperience and made smart decisions that strengthened her. The others in leadership positions generally didn't, and they paid the price.

[DRW50]

This amused me more than it probably should have.