HBO: Game of Thrones

[Skin]

Yeah, I've noticed this happening a lot with cable television lately. There is a hive mind that seems to culminate with critics, and after a certain point it becomes difficult to go against it, as it becomes so ingrained in the shows perception by the public. I want to say it's refreshing to see your point of view, even if I don't think of the issues in the same way you do. I've never read the books so it's not an issue to me, but I hope you will continue to speak out on what you perceive to be failings, because I think there needs to be diverse views on subjects like this. There are so many yes manning everything, and saying everything is excellent and when that happens greater understandings and different schools of thought are lost in this need to herald something just for the sake of it and that's just as if not more detrimental than a substantive critique of real issues and problems. I think more people should be open to that, as you explain in your post here.

[Vee]

There's also a vast gulf of difference between "yes manning" something and genuinely appreciating a program with one's own viewpoint which is equally valid and intelligent. As opposed to calling the showrunners and the original author names and personally insulting them just because you don't like the TV show.

[DRW50]

That's how it always is with critics, especially in recent years. If it's "hip" to like something, then views will be shaped around that. AV Club rolls around in this - almost all TWD reviews are wholly negative, while Shameless reviews are almost always gushy and positive, even as many fans tore the show to shreds this season.

Many critics care about their own egos, nothing else. That's why you have so much endless bullshit about "The Golden Age of Television" because if THEY like it, it MUST be the best.

And now that they can't fawn as much, suddenly it is the SILVER age, because it's just not good enough for them anymore!!

They're a joke.

Edited April 11, 2015 by DRW50

[Vee]

I do think it's a pretty good era for TV at the moment, even though I never watched, say, Breaking Bad or Mad Men - I'm sure I will watch both someday. But I think we've got more good TV now than I can remember in a long time.

I think there's always going to be critics with egos, but they don't have anything to do with how I view a show (okay, except Mad Men, I'm just tired of hearing about it). As for GOT there was already a medium-sized backlash last year, which I found to be a pretty good season. If the reaction is more unanimous this time, I frankly think it has more to do with last year's harshest critics getting back to judging GOT on its actual merits, as opposed to some of them needing to make a bold statement about a hit show in its fourth year, which too many online critics do, in an attempt to drive hits or burnish their personal brands. They've moved on to some other show to assault - unfortunately, some perennial favorites like TWD rarely get respect. But I don't put that on GOT.

Like it, don't like it, I don't care, but don't tell me I'm anti-intellectual if I do, Skin. I'm open to critique, I'm just not open to critique where I've listened to someone spend most of this thread calling the author, the showrunners and every fan of the show names, and suggesting we're all stupid and ignorant if we like it. And you wouldn't be either. I don't engage with those kind of histrionics and I never will. I hope we're past them.

[DRW50]

A lot of the criticism started after the Cersei/Jaime rape scene, which I do think was a horrible misstep, one that significantly lowered my interest in Jaime as a character. By the end of the season most critics seemed supportive enough again, at least of what they always like (rah rah Arya, Tyrion, The Hound, etc.). What it has never been cool to like (Jon's story), they continued to tut-tut.

I read a few reviews for the new season, but stopped when every one of them had to include, "They're moving away from the books and that's so good and shows how brilliant they are because the books are so complicated!!!"

Even if that's true, it sounds oddly defensive to say it over and over, and I can't say that made-up material is something D&D have excelled at.

And if the spoilers/rumors are true about

Edited April 11, 2015 by DRW50

[Vee]

I remember some backlash from the start. Like, out of the gate, with the first screeners just like this week, for Season 4 and several outlets, it was "is GOT struggling? Is it out of control? Let's all make the hot take!" It initially had nothing to do with the Cersei/Jaime scene, then that became a convenient touchstone because of the muddled way it was handled. It was a hot take that eventually became informed by something else. I don't think it matched the reality with the overall season, or the reception of the audience, and eventually the people trying to push that narrative understood that.

I don't think Season 5 is innately good if it tries to be divergent, but I also don't really care if it is. (I also doubt it will diverge as much as people think.) I haven't read the source material and I only go by the show which I find more than satisfactory. They were running out of road to work with Martin's text, they've consulted with him heavily on future planned events, and they had to go forward and everyone involved knew that, and I think they have an incredibly talented cast and crew to do it. I also think it finally makes a firm dividing line - viewers could make it about the books or not in the past, but now it just has to be about the show. I think that's liberating for people whether they like the show or hate it. It doesn't make much of a difference for me since I never bothered with the distinction, but I know it makes some people feel freed up. There's quite a few book fans I know who are like, "thank God they're moving on, the latest two are terrible." I personally don't turn on an author that fast usually and I very much doubt they're as bad as people claim, but I also know the show has to go forward regardless. So I'm open to it.

As for Ramsay, we've been over this before but no, I don't think the show sees him as a sex symbol and we will have to disagree.

Edited April 11, 2015 by Vee

[DRW50]

[Antoyne]

I don't think just because someone enjoys the show, they're yes-manning. That's actually quite short sighted and judgmental. I find the show to be a very entertaining hour, but I don't find it to be the end all be all. There's plenty of things I've critiqued in between things I've praised.

[ThePrinceOfSunspear]

But that's just it...aside from attacking me because I dare to criticize the writers and the show itself I haven't seen any criticism pointed at the show.

I realize what a gravy train its become for all those involved and to me its just based on the fact that they the audience is simple and just wants gore, sex, more torture scenes, etc etc.

And its fair game to call the writers useless. Its my evaluation of their writing skills. Their plotting skills. The way they execute storylines, etc. GRRM himself had plenty of talent and the 5 books he's written so far have been great. But like most things and people in life he's been corrupted by the money and more specifically HBO. Its not a great crime for me to say he's greedy and if I feel that way I will state it.

Those spoilers are truly disturbing but not surprising DRW50....I wonder how they're gonna make that happen.

[Skin]

Interesting, I didn't say that I consider you anti-intellectual for this reason. Just that there seems to be a devaluation of an opinion because it's not positive.

This wasn't what I was speaking about in terms of yes manning, enjoy what you enjoy, I would say absolute refusal to accept criticism and divergent forms of thought is basically the quintessential definition of yes manning, and is exactly what I would define as being short-sighted and not productive.

Carl,

That Ramsey story is horrifying and the entire storyline with Theron is disgusting in all facets, and to hear the show runners say how much they love Ramsey, and get so much pleasure out of torturing Theron just makes my skin crawl. It's the most offensive story they've ever executed as far as I am concerned.

Edited April 11, 2015 by Skin

[Vee]

I don't devalue the poster's opinion because it's negative. I devalue it because I've reading it for several seasons full of name-calling and insults for the show personnel and for anyone who does like the show.

Case in point:

[ThePrinceOfSunspear]

Be offended if you like but you know that was directed at you personally and frankly I limited my critique to the story lines snd plot holes at first. It wasn't until certain people felt the need to belittle my problems with the show because I omg read the books and think they a million times better that I looked at why the writers don't care.

The show for the most part is terrible in terms of substance. If not for the gargantuan budget, HBO's massive marketing campaign, and the legion of soft core and violence loving addicts out there the show would not be the hit it is today. Is everyone who watches it the same exact type of person? Of course not. But a very large amount of them are.

[Vee]

You can say whatever you like, but when you make those kind of sweeping generalizations you're making it impossible for me and apparently a fair number of other people to take you seriously.

[ThePrinceOfSunspear]

That's completely up to you but its absolutely fair game and there are a number of people who feel the same way I do. Just because this thread and this board in general has a good love of hive mind mentality and belittling those who dont share the exact same love of XYZ that doesn't mean I'm going to be intimidated by the childish behavior and all of sudden start LOVING Game of Thrones despite it's sex and violenced fueled nonsense and the fact that they don't understand how to adapt a book without destroying it.

Because I believe (and the ratings data most of the time supports this argument) that a lot of the viewers are just young guys in a certain age range who couldn't give a toss about the dialogue or sets or the meanings behind certain scenes snd characters thats the reason you find it "impossible to take me seriously"? Yeah sure go right ahead and I will continue to post my thoughts and feelings on the episodes which I know are based on analysis of the episode and not just pure blind hatred of the show or its writers. For every good character/arc they have (the Red Viper last year) there's s million others they botch or make up entirely that has no real value or meaning behind it.

The difference just lies in how much I care about these things. And I have yet to tell anyone to "stop" watching a television show just so I don't have to hear their opposjng viewpoint.

Edited April 11, 2015 by ThePrinceOfSunspear

[Vee]

I don't care if you love it or hate it. I care about how you talk to people who do like it or love it.

And I care about the same things you do in terms of drama. I just don't agree with you. You call it hive mind mentality when you're the odd man out, I call it having a minority opinion. And that's okay - I don't mind being the minority when I am. And I don't have to throw fits when people disagree with me, and call them all fools for not getting it. (Though sometimes I call them fools for entirely different, far pettier reasons.)