2 hours ago, j swift said:

The thing about early Josh and Reva, (before the bridge) is that Josh's responses to Reva's actions always seemed over the top given her misdeed. 

 

For example, when she came to town (remember those days of turbans, funny personal maids, a masseur and those faux-victorian phones?) she told the Lewis' that she was there because her divorce with Billy had never been finalized.  Later, Josh finds out that Reva was paid to come to town to break up Billy and Vanessa, he freaks out and leaves Reva.  Meanwhile, a year earlier, he was messing with Morgan's marriage and running around in a speedo but nobody called him the Slut of Springfield.  That whole period was so reminiscent of Cat on a Hot Tin Roof; it was reflected in Reva's clothes, the summer heat, and drapes that fluttered in the wind during love scenes.  There were also allusions to Body Heat; the film that KZ never let us forget.  The production staff at the time expected that their audience would appreciate and recognize those literary and film references. 

 

I know I've been hard on Josh in recent comments because I am reading the SOD synopses of that period.  However, drunk Phillip hit on Reva and Josh didn't defend her and that's why she yelled in the fountain.  Josh also put up with a lot of craziness from Tangie, Sonni, Terri DeMarco, and Annie Dutton that he never tolerated in Reva.  I just think, like many supercouples, Reva tolerated a lot more of Josh's foibles than he did for her. 

 

This is why I never was a big fan of Josh/Reva as a couple.  

 

In the backstory of Josh/Reva... they were child hood friends and sweethearts.. but she was the daughter of the cook (Sarah Shayne worked for the Lewis family).. so she never felt she was good enough for Josh.. and Josh never let her forget it.  Reva's actions always were impulsive especially in reaction to what Josh's actions toward her and in general.  When he left town for college without a thought to Reva (at least in her mind).. she quickly married his older brother Billy.

 

Zimmer said in that emmy legends interview that she was given a couple of different scenes to act out in her audition... one where she was the fun loving party girl, one where she was brash and sassy against those that spoke ill of her, and finally a scene with Josh where she crumbled and was vunerable.

 

It seemed to me that Josh tolerated stuff from Tangie/Harley/Annie/Olivia/Sonni because he didn't grow up with them.. nor were they daughters of the family cook/maid.  To me, his actions toward Reva were a throwback to the class differences between the two.

 

I actually will say that I liked Reva better during the two years where Josh wasn't in the picture where she was involved with Kyle, her suicide attempt, her trying to rebuild her life, becoming a photographer for the Springfield Mirror, and realizing that Kyle wasn't the man for her because of how cold blooded he was to Maeve in regards to their son Ben.

 

I'll even go as far as to say I liked Josh with Harley... even though she was the kids nanny.. she also wasn't one to stand for anyone talking down to her (her verbal smackdowns to Vanessa/Sarah post Reva driving off the bridge were great).

Isn't it odd that Reva had two long lost children (Dylan & Jonathan) and Josh had none? 

 

Josh would jump into another woman's bed every time Reva got lost coming home from the grocery store.  So, isn't an odd missed opportunity that he never had a kid outside of his marriage?

 

@Soaplover I agree with you on the class issues between Reva and Josh, their upbringing seemed like much more of an issue for Josh than it was Billy.  I also never understood the relationship between Reva and Vanessa.  Why wasn't Vanessa as mean to Reva as she was to Nola?  Reva came to town to break up Billy and Vanessa but, Vanessa never seemed to hold it against her.   

I'm in a good mood so I'll try to say some positive stuff about the Peapack era of the show.

 

The production values sucked and it did distract a lot from the writing/stories.. but there were some positive stuff that I liked from that era..

 

Olivia/Natalia.. it was a slow build to them becoming a couple since the two had started off as not being friends whatsoever, and than becoming friends, than becoming roommates, becoming close friends and both not realizing that they were falling for one another.. at the same time that Natalia was involved with Frank.. and Olivia assuming Natalia wasn't in love with her let her be with Frank while Natalia was struggling with being gay, in love with Olivia yet not wanting to hurt Frank.

 

Philip's return from the dead was handled fairly well.. with him reconnecting with Dinah (the writers remembering they were cousins), and Lizzie giving him a tongue lashing.. with the two having a very tension filled relationship (she had his stubborn and controlling streak.. she wasn't anything like her mom... in fact, when M Rylan played Lizzie.. she reminded me more of a young Mindy than a young Beth).

 

I did like that the show remembered Frank/Blake had a prior connection/friendship that fell by the wayside in the mid 90s.. and the two ending up together kind of made sense.

 

Dare I say it.. but I liked Reva with Jeffery.. and I liked that there was a scene of closure between Reva/Josh where they admitted they would always love each other, but couldn't go back.  Hence why the show had to 'kill' off Jeffery to reunite Josh/Reva (and had to flash forward one year into the future as well).

 

Whew.. that was hard work LOL

Agreed, GL does not get enough credit for being the most innovative soap and not every experiment goes well.

 

As I recall they were the first to experiment with different openings back in the 80's with their disco theme remix.  I associate a change from using organ background music to pop music with Guiding Light; from Morgan & Kelly singing to the Donna Summer song while Roger stalked Rita in the Hall of Mirrors.  Obviously the Wednesday bottle episodes, the time jump anniversary special, and the use of integrated commercials were all also first tried on GL.  

If I remember correctly, the Peapack transfer happened in February, 2008, during the Writer's Strike. I believe "Guiding Light" had a short period with no writers credited because they planned ahead and had extra scripts. Also, I think one of the early scenes pre-transition or post-transition involved a wedding or some other gathering where Mallet and Marina were fighting about something and, in the background, the weather was constantly changing in the window. It rained one minute, the next it was sunny, and the next it was raining again. Something along those lines. Am I making this up?

 

I didn't like the "Inside the Light" episodes. One every now and then could have worked. I think they were trying to hard when they did one every week. I was already waning in my viewership by that point, but when they had Lizzie trying to figure out who slept with who and it turned out to be Olivia and Buzz I was done. Horrifying. I didn't even stick around long enough to see the superhero one. I do remember Ross being declared dead, buried, and Blake declaring she would run for office all in a single episode. At the very least, I felt it was two "In the Light" episodes. To be fair, I do believe those Wednesday episodes helped the ratings didn't they? 

 

I felt Wheeler was constantly trying to create a show that would never work with the budget limitations she was given. I almost would have respected her more if she and Kriezman made careful, but painful, cuts to the cast and tried to rebuild a Springfield that could survive. I really didn't see the Spauldings as a functional unit without Phillip around. I'm sure others will disagree. It all seemed so fractured. For a moment, I thought the show was going to pull it together when they brought back Alan-Michael, had Beth marry Alan at Ravenwood, and their was a looming board meeting. There was a great scene where Harley and Gus are in their obnoxious glory ranting and raving about something and Beth just looks on mortified that they are the ones who will lead the family. At the time, Beth was gunning for CEO of Spaulding, or whatever the main title was, which was why she married Alan, and he married her to goad Phillip into returning. I understood why the characters were doing what they were doing and then suddenly they decided that Harley was going to be the new CEO and I just couldn't bother. St. Harley wins again. I'll pass. 

 

I never understood how characters like Mallet, Natalia, Grady, Cyrus, and Susan became so prominent in the shows final years. So much low-energy to no-energy additions that I just couldn't get behind. They weren't necessarily played by bad actors, but I felt so many of Wheeler and Kriezman's additions brought so little to the show in those final years. If the storytelling was stronger it could have worked, but I don't know if Kriezman told any story that built to a satisfying climax that didn't involve mental gymnastics to make the story work. There were always interesting ideas and dynamics that would be touched on occasionally, but anything that seemed worth investing in longterm just petered out. 

 

I didn't like Natalia and Olivia. I'm glad they didn't go the route I thought they were hearing with using Gus' heart as the reason the two women were falling in love with each other, but I felt Olivia with Natalia was as awful as Olivia with the Cooper men. 

 

The Peapack episodes were just so poorly done. I do remember trying to watch once Grant Alexander returned, but the production was just awful. I feel like everything echoed in the "Spaulding mansion" and it was surreal to watch Buzz sitting on a bench in the middle of the suburbs talking to ghost Jenna. And I can't remember what song they blasted over Buzz sobbing over Coop's dead body, but it completely took me out of the moment. 

I really did reach a point where I began praying for this show to end.  I couldn't even feel sad anymore about the possibility of GL never returning.  To me, cancellation at that point would have been more like a mercy killing, plain and simple.

On 8/4/2018 at 12:46 PM, j swift said:

The thing about early Josh and Reva, (before the bridge) is that Josh's responses to Reva's actions always seemed over the top given her misdeed. 

 

For example, when she came to town (remember those days of turbans, funny personal maids, a masseur and those faux-victorian phones?) she told the Lewis' that she was there because her divorce with Billy had never been finalized.  Later, Josh finds out that Reva was paid to come to town to break up Billy and Vanessa, he freaks out and leaves Reva.  Meanwhile, a year earlier, he was messing with Morgan's marriage and running around in a speedo but nobody called him the Slut of Springfield.  That whole period was so reminiscent of Cat on a Hot Tin Roof; it was reflected in Reva's clothes, the summer heat, and drapes that fluttered in the wind during love scenes.  There were also allusions to Body Heat; the film that KZ never let us forget.  The production staff at the time expected that their audience would appreciate and recognize those literary and film references. 

 

I know I've been hard on Josh in recent comments because I am reading the SOD synopses of that period.  However, drunk Phillip hit on Reva and Josh didn't defend her and that's why she yelled in the fountain.  Josh also put up with a lot of craziness from Tangie, Sonni, Terri DeMarco, and Annie Dutton that he never tolerated in Reva.  I just think, like many supercouples, Reva tolerated a lot more of Josh's foibles than he did for her. 

 

Josh was really a terrible man for a very long time. I remember when Reva came back from the dead, only a few months out of her amnesia - she showed up at the big ball with Alan. Josh berated her and among other things talked about how as a child she had "sold herself for a piece of pie." Even then, in less "woke" times, I was sickened by what he said. I never really forgot it.

 

Josh was tolerable in his last years on GL but the only time I came close to liking him was when he was with Harley. 

1 hour ago, dc11786 said:

 The Peapack episodes were just so poorly done. I do remember trying to watch once Grant Alexander returned, but the production was just awful. I feel like everything echoed in the "Spaulding mansion" and it was surreal to watch Buzz sitting on a bench in the middle of the suburbs talking to ghost Jenna. And I can't remember what song they blasted over Buzz sobbing over Coop's dead body, but it completely took me out of the moment. 

 

I actually think Philip's return is pretty decently written, especially compared to other returns. We got a lot of angst with his son James (even if aging the character so much was silly), we got the big 4 Musketeers reunion and prom recreation (even if it wasn't the same without Judi Evans), we got the drama with Philip and Alan, etc. I also liked that he had a brief scene catching up with Reva. 

 

Looking back it is hilarious that he threw Grady off a cliff and nothing came of it. Obviously that was because the show was canceled, and unlike Goutman, Ellen Wheeler had enough sense to let some stories drop, but it still cracks me up.

That always baffled me - Phillip left the show deranged, a maniac, and they didn't ever deal with the ramifications of his craziness before his exit. He threw Grady off a cliff, the one concession to that side of him, and it was never dealt with.

Well, it's tough to deal with the ramifications of something you can't explain the rationale for in the first place.  Why did Phillip become so unhinged before he was "murdered"?  There's never been a satisfactory answer (aside, of course, from GA's contract coming up, and David Kreizman's "Spauldings BAD, Coopers GOOD" line of thinking that characterizes his time as HW).

 

Phillip's return was decent, but as with much that was good about GL at the end, the credit belongs to Jill Lorie Hurst, who was finally promoted to HW or Co-HW, and who seemed to have a more nuanced view of the show than Kreizman.

Edited August 6, 20187 yr by Khan

4 minutes ago, Khan said:

Well, it's tough to deal with the ramifications of something you can't explain the rationale for in the first place.  Why did Phillip become so unhinged before he was "murdered"?  There's never been a satisfactory answer (aside, of course, from GA's contract coming up, and David Kreizman's "Spauldings BAD, Coopers GOOD" line of thinking that characterizes his time as HW).

 

Phillip's return was decent, but as with much that was good about GL at the end, the credit belongs to Jill Lorie Hurst, who was finally promoted to HW or Co-HW, and who seemed to have a more nuanced view of the show than Kreizman.

 

Didn't they try to claim it was an illness?

I don't THINK so, but I was watching so infrequently by that point, I might have missed it.

@GMac I was intrigued by your comment on Marj's Alexandra in the real life thread. 

 

It lead me to wondering if Marj would have made a better Trish Lewis?  Trish could have served Alex's role as an antagonist for Mindy.  They got along before but something could have easily been written to make them in opposition.  Trish had built in conflict with Alan, so those Alex stories could have been attributed to Trish.  Trish could have had long lost kids or long lost husbands.  Also, Andy Norris is a much better ex-husband character than Count Luba-whatever (Nick's father).  I felt that character was really underdeveloped given her interesting backstory and Marj could have played her well without the comparison to Beverly.

 

Speaking of "could of, would of, should of"  I just read that Jennifer Richards gave birth to a kid with the evil Mark Evans before she left Springfield.  In fact, she gave birth, gave the kid to Amanda, left town, then returned and took back Matthew to raise.  

 

(1) What happened IRL that caused Jennifer to leave and then come back to Springfield?

(2) Wouldn't Matthew Richards have been a great SORAS to come back and take revenge on Alan?

Edited August 7, 20187 yr by j swift

I think Rebecca Hollen would have been the best choice to bring back as Trish, if she was willing. 

 

I wonder sometimes who Marj would have been best served playing. I think she could have been a new Spaulding relation, or a long-lost mistress of Henry's. 

For Marj, I would have created the character of Miss Martha's sister, and Billy, Josh and Trish's aunt.  I might have even named her "Mary," since Martha seems like such a biblical name to me.

Edited August 7, 20187 yr by Khan

@DRW50 My favorite role for Marj was when she played Pamela Capwell.  It was a unique mix of snobby, vulnerable, insane, and maternal.  Alex was vulnerable at times but, during Marj's stay in the role, she mostly just an antagonist.  Beverly got all of the plots where Alex had agency, Marj's Alex was mostly just a spanner to avoid for other characters. 

 

Also, every Alexandra backstory never fit with Alan's backstory.  Over time it was a real pet peeve of mine that the sibling's backstories never seemed to align.  So, using Marj as a different character would solve those logic issues.

Edited August 7, 20187 yr by j swift