Y&R Episode Discussion for the week of July 20

[DRW50]

The scene with Nick and Nikki was about what I expected, especially from Nick. I wasn't exactly offended, but I did take it as another example of how Y&R is generally pandering to gay stereotypes and the views of those who are not supportive of gay rights. Nearly every beat of this story has played into those stereotypes.

[cara mia]

Yes. Neither gay story on the show has been what I would call progressive. I do wonder what some of the gay writers thinks of MAB's "vision".

[DRW50]

When she went on about the idea about not doing a coming out story, with the implication they would just be characters, not gay characters, I had a glimmer of hope she might have meant she was just going to tell stories about their full lives. Instead, she seemed to mean that she wasn't going to do a coming out story because she doesn't want us to care about them at all. Rafe has no life beyond one or two brief legal scenes and then having offcamera sex with Adam. Any interest he had in helping his aunt is long gone. He is a talk-to for Colleen, a character who is almost as meaningless as he is. It's all just stereotypes of a needy, lonely gay man. Phillip's story could have been interesting even if he is just a prop for Cane and Chance, but he's so brittle and so self-absorbed that it's almost impossible to feel sympathy for him even if they had tried to get to know him.

The biggest cheat is that the potentially great drama of a Newman, the heir to the biggest alpha male in daytime, coming out has been turned into a joke, a bad tease. Adam isn't really gay, or even bisexual. So we get these ha ha moments from Nick about drag queens and we get the likely ha ha moment of Adam squirming when Victor finds out the truth, and what could have been a fantastic story never done before on soaps is turned into absolutely nothing.

I never had a problem with Bill Bell not doing gay stories, because I respected his decision. He tried it once. The viewers were furious. Ratings collapsed. He said, "Not again." He wrote brilliant stories in a world which, overall, did not have homosexuality. That's OK. I would have rather seen this continue than to see Y&R claim to be modern while treating homosexuality in a manner which may have seemed dated even 40 years ago.

[cara mia]

Even a great writer would have a hard time writing a fully grown adult male (who is also a psycho) that realizes he's bisexual this late in life. I am not saying it's impossible. Just that it's not easy. If TPTB wanted a gay Newman, it would have been a million times better to do this story with Noah. This is age where people are discovering their sexuality. Noah having to deal with macho grandpa Victor and stud papa Nick would have created plenty of drama, especially if Nick were his typical immature frat boy self about homosexuality. Can you imagine the soapy angst of a sensitive intelligent teen Noah dealing with those two? IMO, the reason you introduce your first major gay character as a teen (like AMC and ATWT did) is because you do have to take into account conservative viewers. I've looked at the other boards (scary!, esp CBS) and the gay-haters have not been moved to reconsider their positions at all. If anything, psycho Adam, stupid Rafe and blank creep Phillip have just brought out their nastiness. The reason you start with a Bianca or a Noah is that you need to educate people. By having Erica and Lily struggle with their children's sexuality, you see the hang-ups of the conservatives addressed and worked out. When Bianca had her baby stolen on AMC, viewers were irate. They loved their Bianca and accepted her homosexuality as part of who she was. Y&R, with the most conservative fanbase, needed to start with a smart, sympathetic gay character. Once Noah is established, you can introduce gay villains. Maybe a closeted football player who is into Noah but afraid to come out. Or even make Adam into a J Edgar Hoover/Ray Cohn type who is outwardly mean to gays (especially Noah) but secretly wresting with his own sexuality. Noah & Rafe could be friends, with Rafe having no intentions towards teen Noah, but Nick could of course blame Rafe for converting Noah and try to ruin him. Now that would be a very soapy story. AMC had no problem starting off Erica as bigoted about Bianca's sexuality and then slowly but surely transforming her. Because MAB lives in some dreamland where gays have equal rights to straights (she most have slept through the Prop 8 battle), she is missing out on some tremendous stories addressing what it means to be gay in this culture at this time.

[DRW50]

You're right. A story with Noah would have been much better. The Y&R stories were so heavily praised before they aired because they were supposed to be different than the usual teen coming out story, but all they've done is shown how well-written those stories were, at least in their early stages.

I do think you can do a coming out story with a middle-aged man (ATWT did an OK one with Brian/Larry Lau, it was too short), but you need a better handling of character and the soap genre.

I think the show has a very socially conservative mindset which automatically blocks them from getting most ideas of how to write for gay characters, or for strong women.

[y&r_fan]

I just visited the CBS board. WOW. I now remember why I stopped posting there a year ago. It's like a big online mental institution. Thought I'd post some of the "Greatest Hits" from the gay threads over there:

"I have been a dedicated viewer of “The Young and The Restless” since the show first aired but today will be my last forever due to the choice by the writers and CBS to impose homosexuality upon the show. It distresses me that CBS and “The Young and The Restless” think so little of its faithful audience that it would with forethought and contempt inflict its gay agenda. It is unforgivable that CBS and Y&R have disrespected so many viewers. I have young children and will not have them stumble on to this filth. I am blocking & boycotting CBS's “ The Young and The Restless" and I am encouraging others to do the same. I plan on launching a massive email campaign against this show. I also am contacting Y&R sponsors and will warn them about going down this abhorrent road with their names attached. Nothing short of an apology and a promise to never do this again will ever win me back. Tell CBS and Y&R to stop this gay storyline.Until then goodbye!!"

"No where in the Bible does it speak of interracial relationships being wrong. If they were wrong, they would not be able to have children...and they can. People who had a problem with that WEREbigotted and wrong. This is a whole different can of worms. This boils down to morals and trying to normalize a deviant behavior. And, no, I won't watch it until they clean up their act."

"This type of behavior is unappriopate to watch during the daytime. It isn't anything funny to see a man kiss another man or even to apprear they have that type of behavior and for women is way off base. They can't find any storyline except for gays. Give me a break! [...] Frankly, all shows with that type of behavior should not be allowed on TV. Is there anyway to protest these show or something, especially family guy. That show just goes a little bit to far. The writers are showing they have no morals about themselves. Just because we live in this world does not mean we have to be part of this nonsense. The sex is really over rates as everyone's wife or husband, where is the example of safe sex. All of them should have Aids or HIV positive. Is having Morals a thing of the past?"

"Think of the kids in these home that are going to continue to watch! It's sad that CBS has to resort to this to gain popularity???? It USED to be the best soap on TV. Read your Bible, people. It's in there that this is wrong, and YES I am a Christian person and I'm proud of it."

And my personal favorite...

"please Y&R stand apart and let the characters realize it is not right to be homosexual....ITISSO SO WRONG!"

It's frightening that these people are allowed to walk our streets.

[Cashton]

Poor Mary Jane - I want her to sing "And I Am Telling You (I'm Not Going)" to Kitty and Jack! I do feel so bad for her. But I do feel so good for watching Paul unintentionally make Victor look visibly more consitpated than EVER. Never, has there ever, been a scene of Victor trying to weasel himself out of a situation - and it just makes me laugh out loud at my screen.

Paul: Forgive me for saying it but Summer happens to be my fiancee's grandaughter. That makes it my business.

Victor: Yes, well, you've got a point.

Holy Sh!t!!

I'm sort of glad that Adam didn't completely throw Mary Jane under the bus, though I'm sure it was more self-preservation (She'd have told them Adam was helping her and about the dress). I really like MM in the role. He's so oily and yet quite powerful. Definitely not wet-dream worthy (as Ruxton and all the "gheys" frequently point out...but JM is and he sucks.

Deacon - I'm liking him. He's like a 70's blaxpoitation baddie. The vile pimp. And I hope he has a better purpose for setting up Daniel than just trying to boink Amber. I mean, he was in Vegas. There are hookers in Vegas who are hotter than AF - sorry AF, if i ever meet you I'll tell you you're GORGEOUS!

JD who plays Chance - I hate his haircut - makes him look heavier than he really is. Haven't they learned their lesson from Mac? Don't have an important character come on completely bland with no emotion and short hair. When will he get his recast-not-working-out-hair-extensions?

I really love/hate Daniel and Phyllis's relationship. I can't explain it but I like them together, and their scenes are usually good. It's just that Phyllis never seems to be Phyllis when she's with him - and it's way different than when she's with Summer. Almost big sister, kooky aunt...but not mother/son.

[Y&RWorldTurner]

Wow........

[MoTheGreat]

I also think JD is doing fine in what they have written for him. But he also might need to get away from the Philip 3rd storyline.

[rhythmchyc]

Coming out stories have been done. I'm glad they didn't do it here because they've been done and because there's no way this story would've been told to pull at the heart strings. Nothing on y&r now is emotionally resonate and you'd have to be so to tell a coming out story. If they did do a "Noah is gay" story, it would've been him sitting his lazy immature parents down at the athletic club and telling them he's gay. Then he'd be off the screen dating boys here and there and bringing one or two home to little pomp and circumstance. It'd be just like now where he's dating Eden, a forbidden affair in its own right, and we never see them and their sexual scenes are off camera.

I'm also glad to see these versions of gay men on y&r. The problem isn't in the characters, I don't think, especially since Adam isn't even gay. I can see how ignorant bigots would confuse one or two sexual acts as confirming your sexuality but I don't have a problem with him using Rafe to advance his agenda. I also don't have a problem with P3 feeling vindicated for doing what he did. There are gay a**holes in the world.

The problem is these damn s/ls have weak motivations. They're using these characters as tools to advance the plot, as we all know. If they had the sense to be more attentive to all the aspects of the story, this would be much more powerful.

So, Rafe should be more prominent. He would counter a lot of people's fears of gays on soaps by being a successful lawyer who still has a close relationship to his family and hasn't had any luck in the love department so far. He doesn't even need his own storyline and he would work.

P3 should be bitter about the women in his life, I think as long as he lives, but he should also want to know about his son. There hasn't been a scene when he's asked Nina what it's been like to raise him. What his favorite whatever was and on and on. Maybe that's coming but it's absolutely necessary. You can't just do a retcon, make him gay, and throw him away. [!@#$%^&*]!

Or he has to at least have something human about him. Sending an orphaned imposter to you family to be loved just doesn't count. P3 isn't longterm anyway but his one dimensional irritation doesn't work.

[marla0518]

maybe the writers need to watch British TV!! like Torchwood, Captain Jack Harkness is hot and sexy and has no quelms kissing a hot sexy man!!! It's done as just a story with love between two people, it is natural and beautiful!! Hell I would pay money to kiss John Barrowman!!

the whole Adam and Rafe thing was just butchered!! and now that TGVN "knows" about Adam's sex life! it is going to get good! "your GAY You Got THAT!!!"

[ian]

OK, I'm going to flip out now. You've been warned.

[rant]I am so goddamn sick and tired of the vocal minority controlling the majority. It is these kind of people who have turned the human body into something to be covered up, sex, one of the most normal things in life to be turned taboo, anything even mildly controversial to be suppressed and TEN PERCENT OF OUR ENTIRE POPULATION TO HAVE TO LIVE IN SHAME and this kind of thinking puts us back YEARS and DECADES as a society.

Say you saw something controversial on TV... if you liked it, chances are you wouldnt take the time to write in, you'd enjoy it, go on with your day, get up and go to work. or if it was something like sex you wouldnt write them to say I enjoyed that you showed sex on TV. That makes you look like a perv.

If you didn't care either way, you'd just shrug and say OK, what's on next.

But its when you get really pissed off that you see red, flip out and write in. You threaten boycotts and since that's the ONLY feedback networks/execs get that's the only thing they have to go on. It's like the family guy episode "We got three emails about last nights broadcast, and as you know, one email = 50 BILLION PEOPLE."

I hate hate hate hate HATE HATE HATE people who are easily offended like that. Take your hypochristian BULLSHIT ELSEWHERE. You can hold your bible up to your chest and spew hate in the name of love. GMAFB. If homosexuality is such a fu.cking sin then why didn't Jesus say ONE WORD ABOUT IT. However, you know what he did say? HE SAID LOVE PEOPLE. He preached love. Let's try to pay attention to this guy you've all agreed to follow, you bunch of judgemental pack of sh!t-for-brains.

I'm sorry, but my TV has more than the "7th Heaven" channel. I appreciate shows that step up to the plate and show us something provocative and something that makes me say "I can't believe they did/showed/said that." Network TV is a joke and exists only to pander to an advertising audience.

Networks have no brains, no spine and no balls. Harding Lemay mentioned in his interview with We Love Soaps that during his tenure at AW, the networks tried to tell him he couldn't show a white nurse having lunch with a black nurse.

Right. Let's keep millions in the dark because dozens don't like what we have to offer.

I flip a big one-finger salute to every person who is small, easily-offended and can't deal with the world around them. Go bury your head in the sand like a f*cking ostrich so the rest of us can progress as a society. [/rant]

Sorry That's my biggest pet peeve. People need to get over stuff and live on the same earth as everyone else and shrug off these every day things. If it takes a show to make you feel threatened in your religious beliefs then maybe you should re-evaluate how strong they actually are.

*whew*

PS - the first person that says "tell us how you REALLY feel gets a slap LMAO

[rhythmchyc]

I was already riled up and now that I lost the damn message I was writing, I'm even more so. Dammit!

Why are people so angry with networks when they cater to homophobes? It's like when people are angry at Congress because they cater to lobbyists. It's the only thing these organizations see because it's a point of view that inundates their offices. Of course they're going to save face, save profit, and reprimand show creators for treading into uncharted waters. Networks have "no brains, no spine, no balls" because their only concern is the bottomline. If gay people made them money, they wouldn't care what anyone thought. But they don't, so they're shafted. That's the way it goes.

As for the homophobes, I'm so sick of this debate. It gets run into the ground every single time there's a possibility that very sensitive homophobes watch gay people on soaps. It's essentially the same debate: "I won't watch [insert soap] anymore because it's against my religion to watch these heathens on television." Then it's, "Why are you such a bigot! Gays aren't the antichrist. They're people. And the networks are idiots for catering to the Christian Right agenda."

I think both sets of groups have the right to feel the way they do. What's UNAMERICAN is when one group spreads their filthy negativity around and ruins the rest of the nation's viewing experience to suit their staunch belief, as if it's the end all be all and if you don't agree, then you're an utter idiot/heathen. I have an idea, why won't both sides be more constructive and complain about what really affects them?

What really incenses me is how people get so passionate about television shows. They're not your family. They're not pets. They're not your household. Television is an entertainment/sometimes educational medium for our enjoyment. If you're going to spend hours complaining about a television show to your government and to the networks, you are a loser.

If you're a mom at home watching television with toddlers and you see Adam and Rafe share a gay moment (off screen!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!), do you really think your children are going to know what's going on? No. And if they do, why don't you express to them what you think they're doing rather than going to the sony/cbs/etc. messageboard or your network or your senator and complaining about it as if it's the worst filth ever to cross your screen. I guess your children have learned about all the dos and don'ts of the world and you don't need to teach them any values anymore. You've done your job. That's what TV is for, isn't it?

But this goes for both sides. Religion is a very personal thing. Everyone believes Jesus to be one thing or another. If people think he strikes down all of the homosexuals in the world because they are a curse to humanity, then they have a right to.

And I love Y&R, but it's not the alpha and the omega. For these people to be so passionate about a soap opera that it affects them in such a negative way, it really says a lot about how porous our nation's values really are. Get your damn priorities straight.

If you believe a television show to have become an utter abomination, turn it off.

There. That wasn't so bad was it?

[brimike]

Liking Mac with a little fire under her today. CF is never going to "wow" me, or win any Emmys. But she's grown on me in a very natural way.

I like this Jack/Sharon scene as well about reconciling. I wish Cane and Chloe had had this same conversation a year ago. Would have saved us a lot of garbage.

ETA: Yani is doing great today! Nice to see a fire under him as well!

[Y&RWorldTurner]

UGH, today's episode was everything I hate about this show (which I guess is about everything these days anyway)....

Billy/Mac just don't work anymore, time to get over it Maria and Company...

I still hate this Cane/LAME propping. I don't understand the devotion to this couple gets from the TPTB when they ignore love and romance on the rest of the canvas. This couple's wedding was a ratings bust and none of their storylines were ever ratings successes. As much people seem to hate them as they like them. The excessive amount of airtime they're getting is annoying. Is Lily that stupid to skip out on surgery just to find Cane? I know he's her husband and all, but would she rather live with cancer longer?

God, PLEASE GET RID OF ADAM. I'm SO SICK of this one-dimensional sicko, another one that's been shoved down our throats. Was I supposed to care for a his little "break up" scene with Rafe? I didn't even fell sorry for Rafe, though he was being played. Everything about this storyline has been one big hallow mess.

Likewise with Heather. What a bitch, I don't like her. Instead of sympathizing with these characters, I just can't care that they're getting played. They're all idiots.

God, I'm SO TIRED of Jack being such a doormat for that whore Sharon. I still can't get over Sharon's nonsensical lie and how she's basically preying on Jack's weakness for her AGAIN. Can someone bring back the REAL Jack Abbott please?

Don't get me started on the stupid cartoon Mary Jane is these days. Calling out for Kitty in the alley? Having a set of taxidermy eyes handy? She had so much potential, and now, she's so cartoony...