Y&R Episode Discussion for the week of July 13

[MarkH]

Yes. Exactly. He's being written in this way where I want to just throttle him. Why? Why? Why not have him come back--yes, resolute in his choice, explaining it from the perspective of the confused boy he was--but STILL regretful. Why not have him look at P4 in awe...and suddenly get a few tears and realize the consequence of his choice...how much he missed?

Think about the hospital room scene where P3 died. The emotion of that lives to this day! Now, we have almost all the same characters (and most of the same actors) in a room...and there is scarely any emotion, except MY outrage at P3!

Smack him upside the head, that selfish adolescent (I'm talking P3). Is this really what they're going for? Really?

P3 as jerk...I guess I could buy that. But even jerks on soaps need to have some redeemability. But this guy...blaming everyone for how they "pushed him away". Ugh! Seeing his boy after 20 years all grown up and scarecely a reaction??????

I agree on two other scores: I don't want to see Rafe and P3. Right now, P3 is such an *sshole, I don't want him in ANY relationship, and certainly not someone who looks younger than his SON!!!

I agree Cane is getting "pimped", though that's not necessarily a bad thing. After months of eye rolling in his sickly sweet Lily romance...now these two (Lily, Cane) are among the few for whom I feel bona fide emotions. I don't want Lily to go through this. (Cancer is very close to my heart right now...not LITERALLY, lol). I don't want Cane to leave town. I don't want their past mistakes to stop them from giving one another comfort during this horrible time. But this story could have happened without P3 being a d*ck.

I agree to on Adam/MJ. I was so looking forward to this "union of evil"...but it is all machination and no heart (kind of like Jeff and Gloria). Yesterday, anyway, I could not relate to either of them. These two only work if we root for them...want them to get away with stuff. But he's just evil (none of lost little boy stuff), and she's just totally over the wall...deluded to the point that we can't relate to her either.

[Greg's GL]

Welcome to the thread mygenoa. Give it a chance - I'm sure you will enjoy episode discussion with all these Kool Kats in this thread.

I'd like to hear your take on the show and I think others would too.

OMG Girl! Now THAT'S sumpin I wanna see. Wow........<<forgets what he was gonna say next >>

[Y&RWorldTurner]

LOL! I never made that connection, but Adam/Patty Jane are as one-note as Gloria/Jeffrey, just without the overt tackiness.

[Cheap21]

Are we actually supposed to buy Chance as Nina's son? I tried to give it a chance but JD looks way too old to past as TC's onscreen son. He doesnt look much younger than Cane and looks more like Nina's boyfriend. Speaking of him, I was disapointed with his reaction to seeing his father alive. I expected m,ore emotion, whether it were anger, shock or happiness. He came across to nonchalant as if it werent much of a big deal

Loved Mac the other day with JT. They have chemistry. Id rather Y&R reexplore that than to keep him with Victoria and her with Billy

Is it wrong to hope that Lily really is sick and that she dies a quick death?

I loved Ashley's hair this past week. Its been looking a mess lately but her current style has been a major improvement

[alphanguy74]

I think it is EXACTLY what theyr'e going for, and I can't see any purpose to it, or any reason! Everyone has been ragging on Bierdz for being emotionless, and granted, the character was never about demonstrative emotion or histrionics... but when you sit down and really READ the dialogue on paper that he's being given, it seems pretty obvious that he's being DIRECTED to be this emotionless prick, it's fits with the dialogue... and I have no idea WHY theyr'e doing this. MAB said she was going to tell a gay story unlike what anyone else has done, if this is what she has in mind.... DAMN. The only thing that I would like see right now from the Adam SL, is to let Patty Jane take the fall for everything, have Adam get off scot-free (Like Victor did with the Michael Scott thing) with no repercussion whatsoever (Let them TRY to do a baby switch, and have Dr. Taylor get caught in the act, if you want to not be predictable) Adam can even throw him under the bus and be the one to blow the whistle on him. This way, Adam comes out smelling like a rose... and lives to be the next generation of evil just like his father. Then you can get rid of Braeden and fix all your budget woes (At some point). I'm still hoping MAB has some glittering diamond hidden in her brassiere that will fix this Phillip SL, but It's looking pretty grim.

[MarkH]

Well, if you and I are talking sh!t about this story...it is end times.

Now all I need is Cashton to come in here and tell us this is sh!t to him too...and I'll know there is no hope.

[Juliajms]

But one or two bad stories shouldn't equal the apocalypse. The writers just need to accept that they have made a serious blunder here and move things along. It's time to bring this Adam/MJ story to it's close, I don't care much how they do it at this point. I really don't know how they should wrap up the P3 coming home story, but it's been botched and they need to rescue it or put it down. Maybe introducing Rafe at this point is the answer. I just don't know.

[brimike]

I totally agree, Juliajms! (Although I'm changing my tune and saying introducing Rafe is the WORST thing they could do at this point) All the pieces are there, and I think it's fairly easy to steer it in the right direction again. I mean, it's not like TPTB got rid of everybody over the age of 35, or recast Jack, Victor and Katherine with Port Charles actors. The characters are still there, they're (sort of) still acting like themselves. I really think it would only take a month or two of very meticulously plotted episodes to get it back on track. It's not like I look at the show and it's unrecognizable to me, like some other soaps in dire straits. It seems to me it's just a matter of somebody on the head writing team taking a step back, gaining some perspective, and saying "Stop. Collaborate. Listen." And not just barreling forward like some charging bull in a china closet through story, shattering everything in your path.

[Juliajms]

And you may be right. My thought is that introducing Rafe may take the focus off the scenes with Philip and his family and all the emotion that they are not showing. These scenes are epic fail and the more of them there are the more pissed off and disappointed people are feeling. But I would think that the first real gay romance on Y&R needs a really good set up by the writers and we sure don't have that right now. I want to root for Rafe, but I am not rooting for P3 (how ironic), in fact I kind of want to see him suffer, just to be sure he can feel.

[brimike]

Really interesting sentence here. I think a lot of people feel the same way.

[MarkH]

Obviously you are right. But here is where I get scared. We are what--maybe 3-4 months behind--in story? They're a month ahead in shooting, and at least 1 month ahead of that in scripts, and at least a month ahead of that in story projections, etc., right?

So, even if they SHUT DOWN the show tomorrow and rethought things, we would be into October before we see the fix.

I'm very worried about what will happen to fandom between now and then. I don't want to see things go to the point of...say...Reliquaries and Clear Springs.

Yes, yes, of course...I daresay you even know better than I do.

But...and here is the problem...these daytime shows are pretty fragile ecosystems...the shows themselves, the mix of players and contracts and creative folks. If they generate too much backlash with some of what is happening now...I'm worried about getting the ecosystem back.

Remember the Peyton axiom: Once they leave, they're gone.

Last Friday, the HH rating for Y&R was 3.3. In and of itself, that's not so disturbing or surprising...that seems to be the Friday norm.

But it defines the "envelope", the bottom end of the distribution. It is really not a huge stretch of imagination to get from where we are now to a 3.3 weekly average rating (never mind the demos underneath it). While MAB was able to come back from a 0.5 drop at the beginning of 2008--pretty unprecedented these days--I'm not sure it can be done again.

I love these actors, characters, the whole nine yards. I'm the kind of viewer who will tolerate space aliens having monkey-sex with Victor Newman, and putting thought control chips in Amber's brain...as long as they give me some history to explain how we got here.

But what I can't really accept is unmotivated action and a lack of emotion. Right now, I've lost the thread on THREE stories.

Adam: I don't really understand why he's doing what he's doing, even though he sat on the bed and told me out loud. And he keeps getting more outrageous--now harming mentally damaged Patty--but I feel nothing for this boy. I can't root for or against him. And in the process, Victor is the dumbest he's been--and that includes the lavendar dolls. (Praise be to Braeden, who is still playing smart behind the eyes...but that is small consolation). I have to accept that everybody in this story is so distracted or stupid right now that this continues.

Patty: I was there in the early 80s. I understand this girl. Up to the point where she poisoned Summer, I understood why she was in town, wanted Jack... I was the one here arguing she had "unresolved issues" with Jack when Chris B was saying "nope...she left town with closure". But NOW??? Why did she suddenly flip her lid? Why is she suddenly disconnected from reality? Why is she trotting Kitty out to Crimson Lights? The answer: Because it is entertaining to the people who write the show. THEY have lost the thread on Patty. By not having ANY Williams-family context, it isn't going to matter when she's revealed. Paul needs to be weeping over his sister NOW...telling Heather about the aunt he wishes she knew...Mary needs to be wringing her hands. Jack needs to be talking more about how he can never really forgive himself for wronging her. With all those pieces, when the Patty reveal happens, I think we'll feel something. As it is now, only Doug Davidson's tears on some single episode are going to have any emotional resonance.

P3: Oh, my heart breaks for this one. There are a million ways I could have imagined this going...but not in the direction of snarky, passionless *sshole. Not in the direction where no one feels a modicum of joy that he is alive. Not where there is not a single hug. Not where someone doesn't at least call Chris on the phone and tell her--unseen--what has been happening.

I'm not going to harp and be repetitive here, but I'm just sitting here wondering how THREE--THREE potentially amazing characters with DEEP roots in this show that I have loved my whole live could have gone so wrong. I'm losing confidence that this team can fix it.

I actually have total confidence in the BDW/SWs. They spin gold when they can. Although I wonder who to blame for dumping that whole passionless wad of Chancellor story in one episode yesterday?? Was that the BDWs fault?? Or was it planned that way "higher up"???

I'm looking for someone to blame for this P3 story!! :-)

[MarkH]

Alright, but here's the problem.

I'm not sure RAFE can feel. I mean, why is this dude f*cking Adam? (or being f*cked or whatever the hell is going on)? Is he just horny? In that case, he's kind of a superficial gay promiscuous fella...interesting...but not "soap hero" material. If he's an honorable legal aid lawyer...well...his principles seem to fall out of the window when a hot dude flashes him some pecs. All in all, by throwing his aunt Estella under the bus for Adam..screwing Adam so casually...continuing to do so even though he believes Adam is conflicted and involved with Heather. This is not the virtuous young dude with whom we want P3 to establish his humanity.

And there is more. I don't care about age differences. Hell, I'll loving Beemer and Down on B&B. But P3 is a PIG. Oink oink hog bastard...Hannibal Lecter style no emotions. Not happy to be back, not remorseful...no joy, and he inspires none in his family.

So, why do I want to see that awful awful pig of a man with no paternal feelings and no love and no remorse be rewarded with a romance with a "pretty young thing"? Uh uh. That will just reinforce his piggishness.

What needs to happen is that a GROWNUP...an out, secure man who has lived his life with authenticity (I'm thinking like Wayne Northrup's Roman first was on DOOL, or Clint Richie's Clint first was on OLTL) needs to call P3 on his bullsh!t and tell him what an UTTER PR*CK HE IS. And then, when P3 is finally brought in line and feels some human emotions again, maybe then something can happen. But P3 needs discipline and correction...not romance and reward.

I am totally on the P3-hate train. I loved Thom Bierdz, and I'm not put off by his performance per se. I find his delivery and manner VERY like Beau Kazer's. But Beau does well as the avuncular minister...quiet, deep, words of wisdom, unconditional love. When you add in what seems to be ingratitude and silent/not-so-silent judgement, it just makes P3 seem remote and maybe sanctimonious.

I don't wanna SEE that.

Victor Jr. Patty. Phillip III. Another rumored character that Alvin is exercised about.

I know I'm catastrophizing, but it feels like characters I have hopes for for DECADES...families I have watched for DECADES...are being wrecked left and right.

When Cassie Newman died, I was right there...in full support. The death was agony, but it spins beautiful story half a decade later! That was a great choice...

I thought John Abbott's death would be the same...but it wasn't.

Now, we have four (sorry...I know the term is used) "legacy" characters (by which I mean scions/next generations of their families) on the pyre.

Not even LML monkeyed with core members of core families like this (excepting John).

This is feeling so much now like bringing ATWT's Adam back and turning him into a rapist slug. That character was so destroyed, they now had to do these ridiculous "Riley" twists to reboot the character. They're now repairing some of the Paul Stenbeck ruination in the same awful way.

That was the ATWT methodology. Y&R wisely never destroyed these characters in the first place. That era -- as I guess you have been quietly and steadily warning us -- is apparently over.

[brimike]

This is a great point, Mark. And as pessimistic as it sounds, I would probably say anybody unhappy now probably should tune out until October. Because a lot of similar stuff is probably already in the can. The Peyton axiom dictates they won't come back, but didn't we see a ratings spike for Y&R late last year? (I think it was when "Kay" died.) So yeah - that worries me. But no soap can afford to shut down taping and rewrite and reshoot three months of episodes.

Here's how I see it - let's say the episodes airing now were written back in late April. People really started feeling dissatisfied with the show on the Internet around the time of Adam-as-Sabrina, right? That was beginning of June. Which means counting ahead, TPTB started to see online fandom with a sour taste in their mouths when they were writing stuff that will air in late August. So let's say you're a bunch of producers/writers/directors. You've been writing stuff on paper, that on paper looks like it's all right. But something's lost in translation - it's airing and it's backfiring and you're in panic mode. But what do you do? The long-term story is already written and approved, but the execution needs SERIOUS help.

There is nothing to do but look at the stuff you're writing right now and try and fix the problems. There are no other options. That's the reality of the situation. You screwed up, you dropped the ball. But it's all ready-to-air at this point, and you just have to swallow a bitter pill and try and correct the steering from here on out.

I'm not saying people shouldn't complain. But if we look at the timetable of when online fandom turned on the show, then anybody with a calendar can see if it DOES get any better (and that's a big "if") it really won't be until the end of summer/beginning of fall. And people need to know that going into it.

It sucks, but it's the only way the system works.

[MarkH]

Okay. So we're to embrace hope and patience. Then I just need to find some other way to channel my intense desire to rid the world of P3 a second time!

I know! Fanfic! Just like South Park kills Kenny every week...I'll do a P3 version!

[Eric200]

I was thinking that it is extremely unlikely that Lily has not told Collen about Cane at this point giving how much time people their age text, use facebook, etc. You just know that Lily changed her facebook status to "Lily Winters is sad that it turned out my husband was a con-artist "