I get the sense that you were hoping for a more practical approach. People do something wrong, they are punished fair and without bringing up other outside influences. I don't agree with that. I think that ignores the society that promotes homophobia as a just perspective and cause; and I do think the soap industry has done so on occasion if not in everyday practice. I'm not talking about soaps letting people down because so and so didn't get together, or it wasn't realistic on some day. Brian Frons is just a suit, these policies were put in place long time ago.

On the contrary, I think that ignoring the grounds for Mauceri's dismissal as reported would be "ignoring a society that promotes homophobia." How can I, as a gay person, be asked to condone an allegedly homophobic actor's choices in order to somehow fashion some kind of half-assed protest against a homophobic soap industry? That doesn't make any sense. I look at a lot of hiring/firing cases with a long view towards the trends and the issues, but this is very simple, AFAIC. She wouldn't play gay-positive scenes; they were on a schedule and had to find someone else. If it's true, that is daytime in a rare case of not bowing to puritanical pressure.

PM is gone from OLTL; and I think their grounds for termination were wrong and exploitive.

But if, as alleged, she refused to play scenes in which Carlotta became gay-friendly and had to be removed to find someone who would, who exploited her in this situation? Seems to me she would have done it to herself.

Let me put this out there one more time: At the root of all this is Mauceri reportedly standing up for the "integrity" of her character, insisting that Carlotta would NOT support a gay lifestlye.

Do we longtime viewers agree with THAT viewpoint? That Carlotta is SO DEFINITIVELY NOT SUPPORTIVE of an LBGT person? To the point of where Maurceri would throw her job over it? Is Carlotta THAT crystal-clear homophobic?

My personal opinion is NO, which is why I suspect there's more to it - or that Mauceri is deliriously misguided about her character (and, consequently, her job). And yeah, that makes it a little easier for me to say to bye to her and accept her recast.

But that's the foundation of the argument - that she was standing up for her character. The question some people are asking is, "how credible is that argument, REALLY?"

And I guess when I see people insisting that she must be standing up for her character, I'm wondering if they're saying they actually AGREE with her that Carlotta is a clear-cut homophobe... and why?

Carlotta has always been a little close minded and judgmental. It's varied depending on writing regime but she's always been that way. Just like Asa was always a narrow minded misogynist. It wasn't pretty but it was consistent.

A full blown homophobe? No. I don't believe that describes Carlotta. A finger wagging Catholic who thinks she knows how other people should conduct their lives? Yes. The fact that Carlivati and Valentini couldn't find a way to make that work points to their shortcomings, not the actress'. The ten people still watching OLTL claim they want history and character driven writing but the RC years have proven that to be a bunch of bulls hit. This is just another example.

The irony is the Kyle/Fish story has now become sullied by Nelson, Perez and their rabid little lapdogs at DaytimeConfidential, and on various boards i.e. the very people who have been wanting it for so long. Now throw in the fact that Carlivati and Valentini have become so power hungry, desperate and intolerant even in the face of their bleeding ratings, that they've done more damage than any homophobe. The "my gay or the highway" crowd has damaged the very thing they supposedly are trying to defend.

Oh, I see. So you'd rather make this about poster-bashing, your endless RC issues, and "uppity gays" than look at a simple case of an actor with an unfortunate personal prejudice.

Just another Tuesday for you, then?

I know what'll lighten the mood. Another delightful joke!

Edited June 30, 200916 yr by Vee

On the contrary, I think that ignoring the grounds for Mauceri's dismissal as reported would be "ignoring a society that promotes homophobia." How can I, as a gay person, be asked to condone an allegedly homophobic actor's choices in order to somehow fashion some kind of half-assed protest against a homophobic soap industry? That doesn't make any sense. I look at a lot of hiring/firing cases with a long view towards the trends and the issues, but this is very simple, AFAIC. She wouldn't play gay-positive scenes; they were on a schedule and had to find someone else. If it's true, that is daytime in a rare case of not bowing to puritanical pressure.

But if, as alleged, she refused to play scenes in which Carlotta became gay-friendly and had to be removed to find someone who would, who exploited her in this situation? Seems to me she would have done it to herself.

If you believe she's homophobic then "no" you shouldn't support her. But I think that's what's tugging at alot of people's emotions. How can I support her and support my sexuality and beliefs? Which is why I've had a hard time digesting the information presented by emotionally invested parties.

But when alot of people first heard of a network/soap not giving an actor or a s/l a fair shake at things because of alleged bigoted views, I think alot of us said "that's not fair" or "there were probably other reasons" and continued watching. I'm having trouble separating the two concepts and I do wonder why the same standards don't hold up when we perceive any entity to be in the wrong.

But I don't think we're going to agree on this issue, because we disagree on one too many facts. But I think we can both agree that homophobia hurts people, straight and gay alike.

All I'm saying is I'd like to find a single case where fans don't automatically side with the alleged homophobe against that mean old network with its gays. I'm so tired of hearing these lame attempts at critical referendum on Y&R or OLTL being dragged into these actors' personal bullshit. Frankly, this stuff has turned way ugly; the usual antipathy against a network or a show now gets mixed in with a lot of talk about entitled or presumptuous gay celebrities or executives, and now we're down to talking about "power hungry and intolerant" (about what?) gays Valentini and Carlivati who cravenly axed the helpless Patricia Mauceri. I mean, what is this? Hate OLTL if you want to, take issue with the writing if you want to, God knows I do too these days, but to throw around this kind of viciousness on a public board and mix it in with a lot of rhetoric about intolerance towards alleged homophobes is very unsettling to me.

A full blown homophobe? No. I don't believe that describes Carlotta. A finger wagging Catholic who thinks she knows how other people should conduct their lives? Yes. The fact that Carlivati and Valentini couldn't find a way to make that work points to their shortcomings, not the actress'. The ten people still watching OLTL claim they want history and character driven writing but the RC years have proven that to be a bunch of bulls hit. This is just another example.

The irony is the Kyle/Fish story has now become sullied by Nelson, Perez and their rabid little lapdogs at DaytimeConfidential, and on various boards i.e. the very people who have been wanting it for so long. Now throw in the fact that Carlivati and Valentini have become so power hungry, desperate and intolerant even in the face of their bleeding ratings, that they've done more damage than any homophobe. The "my gay or the highway" crowd has damaged the very thing they supposedly are trying to defend.

I initially objected to this veteran actress having (what is in my mind) some very negative attitudes attributed to her that cannot possibly be verified, and I still do, but these insinuations against others are no better. The way the scenes in question have been described (she freaks out initially but becomes tolerant) are totally in keeping with my view of Carlotta, and the story hasn't even started yet, so how exactly does this speak to the EP or HW's shortcomings in telling such a story? More damage than homophobes? Power hungry, desperate, and intolerant? I don't even understand that, especially in reference to a writer, who has nothing to do with casting decisions and could probably have exercised more control in that department by simply not writing scenes for Carlotta in the first place. And what do the ratings have to do with this story, which again has not even begun airing yet?

Edited June 30, 200916 yr by DeliaIrisFan

All I'm saying is I'd like to find a single case where fans don't automatically side with the alleged homophobe against that mean old network with its gays. I'm so tired of hearing these lame attempts at critical referendum on Y&R or OLTL being dragged into these actors' personal bullshit. Frankly, this stuff has turned way ugly; the usual antipathy against a network or a show now gets mixed in with a lot of talk about entitled or presumptuous gay celebrities or executives, and now we're down to talking about "power hungry and intolerant" (about what?) gays Valentini and Carlivati who cravenly axed the helpless Patricia Mauceri. I mean, what is this? Hate OLTL if you want to, take issue with the writing if you want to, God knows I do too these days, but to throw around this kind of viciousness on a public board and mix it in with a lot of rhetoric about intolerance towards alleged homophobes is very unsettling to me.

That would be pretty upsetting. Especially during such critical times in American history. But in my experience it's usually been the opposite. People immediately jumping on the actor and viewing the networks as just and impartial. Of course in regards to RC and FV, I think there are other issues at large- issues you wouldn't probably wouldn't be interested in talking about, so we'll stay on topic.

I think RC and FV issues have been well documented, in terms of wanting to keep in creative control over their show and battling with higher ups on details as to how to keep the show viable. As I'm to understand it, writers in the past have been anxious to tell a story on gays and lesbians and have been told "no". I personally don't put it past them to cut their loses to achieve with they perceive to be a "greater goal". An actress of little consequence to the how gives them lip on writing and approach, cut her lose. But I don't think it was their desire to present the information to the public in this way, and for that I place responsibility on DC to present the information when they have all the facts.

In my experience approaching intolerance with intolerance never solves anything; and only serves in breeding closeted homophobia. Whereby people refuse to talk to the issues because they're afraid of saying the wrong thing, or discussing conflicting beliefs, and being labeled "homophobic". Like it or not, alot of people don't understand homosexuality and are being presented with alot of information; not all of it all encompasing an entire population of people. This kind of loose reporting and online viscousness doesn't clear the fields and should be unsettling. All I ask is that the media give the story straight. Give everyone all the information instead of deciding for me what happened.

Yes, I still don't understand the accusations of power hungry intolerance. OLTL can [!@#$%^&*] up a lot of things, but where are the power grabs and bigotry?

And miajere, I don't understand how I'm supposed to approach a bigoted performer other than with disdain and sorrow. We can decry DC for posting it if we want, but that leaves the issue of how I should personally react if Mauceri is a homophobe. For me, I can only react with anger and sadness. That's not me being intolerant. That's how anyone feels when they face another person's prejudice against them. I can't go all meta and take it back to "well, but look at what ABC Daytime has done with these people..." Yes, that's very bad, and we've discussed ABCD's failings a lot; I've torn them apart many times. But today, all I'm talking about is one actor. If she has a prejudice, ABC didn't make her that way. And RC and FV definitely didn't.

Edited June 30, 200916 yr by Vee

I think the soap industry is deeply homophobic, disgustingly sexist and astoundingly racist but that's neither here nor there, isn't this about one actor's alleged homophobia? I love how these things splinter off.

The "my gay or the highway" crowd has damaged the very thing they supposedly are trying to defend.

What the hell does that even mean?

Yes, I still don't understand the accusations of power hungry intolerance. OLTL can [!@#$%^&*] up a lot of things, but where are the power grabs and bigotry?

And miajere, I don't understand how I'm supposed to approach a bigoted performer other than with disdain and sorrow. We can decry DC for posting it if we want, but that leaves the issue of how I should personally react if Mauceri is a homophobe. For me, I can only react with anger and sadness. That's not me being intolerant. That's how anyone feels when they face another person's prejudice against them. I can't go all meta and take it back to "well, but look at what ABC Daytime has done with these people..." Yes, that's very bad, and we've discussed ABCD's failings a lot; I've torn them apart many times. But today, all I'm talking about is one actor. If she has a prejudice, ABC didn't make her that way. And RC and FV definitely didn't.

And I can't tell you how to do that... . I hope you're not expecting me to provide you some articulate information as to how you should feel, because that ain't gonna happen.

If PM is a homophobe and therefore hates gays, then I'm sorry to hear that, I'm sorry to hear about her letting hate get in the way of doing her job and possibly changing someone's life for the better. I happen to believe that you can't live in America without having such issues, with television being our #1 outlet for learning, ranking above school and friends. It's our job to deal with our issues, but we have to be honest about them first and really think about the information that we have about others that's wrong. I personally believe we all hate/anger and have the ability to project that hate/anger onto groups of people we feel pose irrational threats to our livelihood. It's wrong but I'm not going to pretend it doesn't exist.

But something tells me that's not what you want to hear. Something tells me you'd be happier to know that I think she deserves to fired and not to be hired again until she seeks professional help- or perhaps you'd be quicker to agree with me. Or perhaps you were hoping I would show my "true colors" and would say that I'm in support of freedom of speech and her right to voice such concerns- and you could label me a homophobe. You spoke earlier of leaving emotional concerns out of this and yet you can't say this topic doesn't "unsettle you" make you feel something and in term bring up personal situations and beliefs.

If she isn't homophobic and this was just trigger happy reporters trying to break something first, then I hope they have guts to apologize for jumping to conclusions and slandering a woman's good name.

FV and RC are struggling to have their own opinion as well.

I'm not looking for you to tell me you're a homophobe at all. I didn't ask for her to be blacklisted or to seek therapy, either. I'm not attacking you. I just think that if the woman's beliefs told her she couldn't play gay-positive material, that is a pretty clear-cut case. You seem to not want it to be. I don't know what you're accusing me of being, but all I am is hurt that one of my favorite actresses on the show may not care for anyone like me, and irritated that some want to blow it up into a cause celebre about the show at large, as opposed to simply sympathizing with gay fans who feel saddened and disappointed. Apparently, sympathy for Patricia Mauceri must come first.

I'm not looking for you to tell me you're a homophobe at all. I didn't ask for her to be blacklisted or to seek therapy, either. I'm not attacking you. I just think that if the woman's beliefs told her she couldn't play gay-positive material, that is a pretty clear-cut case. You seem to not want it to be. I don't know what you're accusing me of being, but all I am is hurt that one of my favorite actresses on the show may not care for anyone like me, and irritated that some want to blow it up into a cause celebre about the show at large, as opposed to simply sympathizing with gay fans who feel saddened and disappointed. Apparently, sympathy for Patricia Mauceri must come first.

I didn't feel accused. But I just wanted to get to the heart of our discussion. It's not sympathy, it's empathy. I empathize with a network that feels responsible to viewers that cap their creativity and ability to showcase gay and lesbian s/l, I empathize with fans who get cheated because of such, and I empathize with PM who's just a long time job that didn't value her enough to talk it over. I think I can do that simultaneously without putting anyone's perspective above the other. They're all intertwined.

And I'm only accusing you of being emotional. Which I don't think is a bad thing, but if you say you're not, then so be it. How you feel about the actress, I feel about the network, and have felt about tptb for a long time now. The actress, I'm still awaiting more information.

This is becoming, in a way, really personal (as much as a message board can be, but still....)

I'm blown away by what's shaping to look like a backlash from some posters against gay people in general (like myself) or gay-supportive people on this board. A few posters who I've had some great, positive interaction with in the past here.... are starting to make me feel very differently, after having read some of their negative attitudes (ones that are unfairly all-encompassing) toward things gay. It's disappointing, and it's a off-putting.

I feel like there have been some statements here that have been like an effective waving of a middle finger, and based on what was written within those statements, the targets would have to include myself... pretty much for my being a gay guy.

I'm hoping that ins't the intention toward anyone. But it's something to think about as we post here... what we're really saying to and about each other.

Edited June 30, 200916 yr by YurSoakinginit

This is becoming, in a way, really personal (as much as a message board can be, but still....)

I'm blown away by what's shaping to look like a backlash from some posters against gay people in general (like myself) or gay-supportive people on this board. A few posters who I've had some great, positive interaction with in the past here.... are starting to make me feel very differently, after having read some of their negative attitudes (ones that are unfairly all-encompassing) toward things gay. It's disappointing, and it's a off-putting.

I feel like there have been some statements here that have been like an effective waving of a middle finger, and based on what was written within those statements, the targets would have to include myself... pretty much for my being a gay guy.

I'm hoping that ins't the intention toward anyone. But it's something to think about as we post here... what we're really saying to and about each other.

You're not alone. I'm an impossible person and I can take a lot, but there is some [!@#$%^&*] in this thread that is downright unsettling and painful to me. I sensed this trend with the Chris Engen bloodbath, and now it's intensified. All I came to talk about was Patricia Mauceri, and I ended up getting an earful about "intolerant" (of homophobes?) uppity gays who want "my gay or the highway" and how any gay fan, writer/producer, or fan who likes "Kyle and Fish" is in league with Perez Hilton. You know, another gay guy? All interconnected?

It's a real eye opener as to how a few people really seem to feel.

miajere, I feel about the network the same way you do. But the way I see it, the network is not the issue here, evidently. Mauceri is.

Edited June 30, 200916 yr by Vee

No. The Engen story was made up by a hatemongering, bipolar narcissist who admitted to twisting the facts to suit his own purposes.

I could swear CE issues a statement not only not denying what was being said about him, but issuing some self-serving statement about how intolerance and prejudice (his obviously) needs to be understood and not confronted in the bright lights of the media. Or something to that effect.