1 hour ago, Soaplovers said:

 

Rachel didnt get off scott free... after all, Karma bought Iris into her life when she moved on from Steve to Mac.

 

True, but it was hard not to feel that Rachel deserved it, LOL.

1 hour ago, vetsoapfan said:

 

True, but it was hard not to feel that Rachel deserved it, LOL.

 

Didn't Rachel and Iris start out as friendly or at least cordial (before Rachel married Mac)?

5 hours ago, vetsoapfan said:

BTW, I was team Russ and Alice all the way. Rachel is lucky that I was not there when she was at her worst, tormenting the Matthews family. She would have been dead meat. Dead meat, I tell you. There were three times in particular when I would have literally smacked her into oblivion, LOL!

 

 

The only Matthew family member I liked was Pat and her twins.

 

I recall in 8 Years in Another World, how Harding Lemay was appalled when he was first asked to watch the show by P&G while Pat was being poisoned by her maid.  He was bemused that a woman with a doctor for a brother would never ask his advice or consult with him about her symptoms.  Lemay's charmingly written disdain for the actors playing Mary and Jim may have informed my own recollections of disliking the Matthews.   

13 hours ago, j swift said:

The only Matthew family member I liked was Pat and her twins.

 

I recall in 8 Years in Another World, how Harding Lemay was appalled when he was first asked to watch the show by P&G while Pat was being poisoned by her maid.  He was bemused that a woman with a doctor for a brother would never ask his advice or consult with him about her symptoms.  Lemay's charmingly written disdain for the actors playing Mary and Jim may have informed my own recollections of disliking the Matthews.   

 

Not to be contrary or start any friction, but to be honest, I have had many a debate with folks who took Lemay's side in this; folks who "weren't there" (so to speak), to watch, analyze, or judge material and performances for themselves, but who nevertheless developed negative opinions of actors and other writers based on Lemay's one-sided account of events. I always ask, why do they assume his personal opinions were fair or accurate?

 

I did not find Lemay's petulant, disdainful, often ludicrous cattiness to be charming. Indeed, despite his outstanding and undeniable talent,  I found him to be quite unpleasant, quite hypocritical, and not always honest if it did not suit his agenda to be.

 

His M.O. seemed to be denigrate everyone else in sight in order to elevate himself.

Edited December 31, 20177 yr by vetsoapfan

2 hours ago, vetsoapfan said:

I did not find Lemay's petulant, disdainful, often ludicrous cattiness to be charming. Indeed, despite his outstanding and undeniable talent,  I found him to be quite unpleasant, quite hypocritical, and not always honest if it did not suit his agenda to be.

 

His M.O. seemed to be denigrate everyone else in sight in order to elevate himself.

 

I worked with the man on one of his plays - your description of him is spot on!

8 hours ago, adrnyc said:

 

I worked with the man on one of his plays - your description of him is spot on!

 

His own autobiographies and interviews paint a picture of his personality, I must say.

11 hours ago, vetsoapfan said:

 

Not to be contrary or start any friction, but to be honest, I have had many a debate with folks who took Lemay's side in this; folks who "weren't there" (so to speak), to watch, analyze, or judge material and performances for themselves, but who nevertheless developed negative opinions of actors and other writers based on Lemay's one-sided account of events. I always ask, why do they assume his personal opinions were fair or accurate?

 

I did not find Lemay's petulant, disdainful, often ludicrous cattiness to be charming. Indeed, despite his outstanding and undeniable talent,  I found him to be quite unpleasant, quite hypocritical, and not always honest if it did not suit his agenda to be.

 

His M.O. seemed to be denigrate everyone else in sight in order to elevate himself.

There is no question that Harding Lemay is a very talented writer and he told some brilliant stories in his 8 years as head writer. He created several great characters - Iris, Dennis, Mac, Louise, Olive, Willis, Gwen, Janice, Vivien, Clarice, Larry and Blaine. However, his arrogance did so much damage to Another World in the long run that the show was never able to completely recover from it. He gutted the show by firing 5 actors - Val Dufour (Walter Curtin), Virginia Dwyer (Mary Matthews), George Reinholt (Steven Frame), Jacqueline Courtney) and Michael Ryan (John Randolph). He preferred creating new characters instead of bringing back ones with ties to Bay City like Sam, Susannah & Lahoma Lucas and Bill, Ricky & Melissa Matthews. He also failed to create a new generation of Matthews who could have generated stories for years to come. 

It is disappointing to hear the reviews of Harding Lemay as a person.  As someone with a family history of television production from the early 1960's through today,  I really liked the book and it was so entertaining to hear his perspective on how soap writing worked when advertisers owned the shows and there were no writers union contracts.  I particularly like the scene when Lemay meets Henry Slesar for the first time and he is so impressed that Slesar had his own mimeograph machine in his dining room.

 

As for forming opinions after fact, I am afraid the only way to discuss TV events from 40 years ago is through personal reflection and it would be difficult to separate the immediate response  from the responses made over time after reading about soap history both in books and now online.  I don't think either way is any less virtuous and I am under no illusions that anyone would want to discuss what I thought about Alice and Steve when I was four years old.

10 minutes ago, j swift said:

It is disappointing to hear the reviews of Harding Lemay as a person.  As someone with a family history of television production from the early 1960's through today,  I really liked the book and it was so entertaining to hear his perspective on how soap writing worked when advertisers owned the shows and there were no writers union contracts.  I particularly like the scene when Lemay meets Henry Slesar for the first time and he is so impressed that Slesar had his own mimeograph machine in his dining room.

 

As for forming opinions after fact, I am afraid the only way to discuss TV events from 40 years ago is through personal reflection and it would be difficult to separate the immediate response  from the responses made over time after reading about soap history both in books and now online.  I don't think either way is any less virtuous and I am under no illusions that anyone would want to discuss what I thought about Alice and Steve when I was four years old.

 

Even today, decades after his tenure on AW, Lemay's interviews are in circulation. Reading his comments about other writers and actors is quite telling. He has been very snide and catty about even the most revered writers of the industry.  As a novice soap opera scribe, he was once asked what he had learned from some of the legendary writers of the genre and he replied, "What NOT to do." Henry Slesar would have been one of the writers whose work Lemay mocked in his book. Slesar was writing both THE EDGE OF NIGHT and SOMERSET in 1971. The brilliant William J. Bell and Pat Falken Smith were at the helm of DAYS that same year, yet their show was another one Lemay trashed to the executives when he was in talks to take over the reigns of AW. 

 

Please don't take anyone expressing different points of view as a personal affront, or that folks don't want to hear your views about what you watched as a child. I have vivid memories of soaps from before I was in kindergarten too, LOL. I am only responding to you because I am interested, not because I want to complain that you don't agree with me. Disagreement is normal. Conversations can be lively and even heated at times (we soap devotees are a passionate bunch), but of course your thoughts are welcome. If we all sat across saying, "Why yes, you are perfectly right...I agree with you 100%....our beliefs are perfectly in sync...." it would be soooooooooo tedious, LOL. 

 

 

57 minutes ago, Efulton said:

There is no question that Harding Lemay is a very talented writer and he told some brilliant stories in his 8 years as head writer. He created several great characters - Iris, Dennis, Mac, Louise, Olive, Willis, Gwen, Janice, Vivien, Clarice, Larry and Blaine. However, his arrogance did so much damage to Another World in the long run that the show was never able to completely recover from it. He gutted the show by firing 5 actors - Val Dufour (Walter Curtin), Virginia Dwyer (Mary Matthews), George Reinholt (Steven Frame), Jacqueline Courtney) and Michael Ryan (John Randolph). He preferred creating new characters instead of bringing back ones with ties to Bay City like Sam, Susannah & Lahoma Lucas and Bill, Ricky & Melissa Matthews. He also failed to create a new generation of Matthews who could have generated stories for years to come. 

 

When Lemay first took over AW, and he worked with the characters and framework created by Irna Phillips and then embellished by Agnes Nixon, it was great. As he expanded the show's focus by bringing some of his own memorable characters into the mix, it was even better. But once he decimated the Matthews family, AW lost its focus and began deteriorating. By the late 1970s the show was a mess and never fully recovered.

4 minutes ago, vetsoapfan said:

Please don't take anyone expressing different points of view as a personal affront, or that folks don't want to hear your views about what you watched as a child. I have vivid memories of soaps from before I was in kindergarten too, LOL. I am only responding to you because I am interested, not because I want to complain that you don't agree with me. Disagreement is normal. Conversations can be lively and even heated at times (we soap devotees are a passionate bunch), but of course your thoughts are welcome. If we all sat across saying, "Why yes, you are perfectly right...I agree with you 100%....our beliefs are perfectly in sync...." it would be soooooooooo tedious, LOL. 

 

 

Thanks and Happy New Year!!!!

28 minutes ago, j swift said:

Thanks and Happy New Year!!!!

 

You too!

 

I just wanted to make sure you knew that my disagreement did not equate to disrespect.

 

You know, I have an acquaintance who loathes THE WIZARD OF OZ. He claims that it is a "radical, atheist" film designed to lure children away from God. If I can deal with that, contrary opinions about AW will not bother me, LOL. So keep your opinions coming. I may strenuously disagree, but it's all good.

Edited December 31, 20177 yr by vetsoapfan

11 minutes ago, vetsoapfan said:

 

Even today, decades after his tenure on AW, Lemay's interviews are in circulation. Reading his comments about other writers and actors is quite telling. He has been very snide and catty about even the most revered writers of the industry.  As a novice soap opera scribe, he was once asked what he had learned from some of the legendary writers of the genre and he replied, "What NOT to do." Henry Slesar would have been one of the writers whose work Lemay mocked in his book. Slesar was writing both THE EDGE OF NIGHT and SOMERSET in 1971. The brilliant William J. Bell and Pat Falken Smith were at the helm of DAYS that same year, yet their show was another one Lemay trashed to the executives when he was in talks to take over the reigns of AW. 

 

Please don't take anyone expressing different points of view as a personal affront, or that folks don't want to hear your views about what you watched as a child. I have vivid memories of soaps from before I was in kindergarten too, LOL. I am only responding to you because I am interested, not because I want to complain that you don't agree with me. Disagreement is normal. Conversations can be lively and even heated at times (we soap devotees are a passionate bunch), but of course your thoughts are welcome. If we all sat across saying, "Why yes, you are perfectly right...I agree with you 100%....our beliefs are perfectly in sync...." it would be soooooooooo tedious, LOL. 

 

 

 

When Lemay first took over AW, and he worked with the characters and framework created by Irna Phillips and then embellished by Agnes Nixon, it was great. As he expanded the show's focus by bringing some of his own memorable characters into the mix, it was even better. But once he decimated the Matthews family, AW lost its focus and began deteriorating. By the late 1970s the show was a mess and never fully recovered.

 

I could understand him trashing Phillips, etc... but Slesar?!?!?!  The writer that wrote some great mysteries on both EON and Somerset, as well as utilizing the Washington DC setting for Capital ( i.e. political intrigue, scandals, espinage, etc).

 

With that said, I was a child of 80s soaps.. and the soaps I liked as a child in the 80s were Guiding Light and Santa Barbara (two very polar opposite soaps).  I loved that both were emotional, quirky, and full of life (I liked Pam Long's take on GL).

 

I do wonder if Lemay had the idea to make Josie, Russ Matthews daughter, or if that was Donna Swajeski?  

30 minutes ago, vetsoapfan said:

 

Even today, decades after his tenure on AW, Lemay's interviews are in circulation. Reading his comments about other writers and actors is quite telling. He has been very snide and catty about even the most revered writers of the industry.  As a novice soap opera scribe, he was once asked what he had learned from some of the legendary writers of the genre and he replied, "What NOT to do." Henry Slesar would have been one of the writers whose work Lemay mocked in his book. Slesar was writing both THE EDGE OF NIGHT and SOMERSET in 1971. The brilliant William J. Bell and Pat Falken Smith were at the helm of DAYS that same year, yet their show was another one Lemay trashed to the executives when he was in talks to take over the reigns of AW. 

 

Please don't take anyone expressing different points of view as a personal affront, or that folks don't want to hear your views about what you watched as a child. I have vivid memories of soaps from before I was in kindergarten too, LOL. I am only responding to you because I am interested, not because I want to complain that you don't agree with me. Disagreement is normal. Conversations can be lively and even heated at times (we soap devotees are a passionate bunch), but of course your thoughts are welcome. If we all sat across saying, "Why yes, you are perfectly right...I agree with you 100%....our beliefs are perfectly in sync...." it would be soooooooooo tedious, LOL. 

 

 

 

When Lemay first took over AW, and he worked with the characters and framework created by Irna Phillips and then embellished by Agnes Nixon, it was great. As he expanded the show's focus by bringing some of his own memorable characters into the mix, it was even better. But once he decimated the Matthews family, AW lost its focus and began deteriorating. By the late 1970s the show was a mess and never fully recovered.

I could not agree more!

20 minutes ago, Soaplovers said:

 

I could understand him trashing Phillips, etc... but Slesar?!?!?!  The writer that wrote some great mysteries on both EON and Somerset, as well as utilizing the Washington DC setting for Capital ( i.e. political intrigue, scandals, espinage, etc).

 

With that said, I was a child of 80s soaps.. and the soaps I liked as a child in the 80s were Guiding Light and Santa Barbara (two very polar opposite soaps).  I loved that both were emotional, quirky, and full of life (I liked Pam Long's take on GL).

 

I do wonder if Lemay had the idea to make Josie, Russ Matthews daughter, or if that was Donna Swajeski?  

 

Perhaps as a person with various documented quirks, Phillips could be annoying. But the brilliance of her writing and her understanding of the medium were undeniable.

 

Lemay did not go into detail about Slesar's work. He only said that he had been watching several soaps before taking over as head writer on AW, including Slesar's SOMERSET, and all those soaps were dreadful and/or ludicrous.

 

I think Slesar actually deserves much more credit than he receives. He was one of the only scribes who could do it all: write compelling and three-dimensional characters, give us emotional and memorable romantic drama, AND tell some of the best suspense/mystery stories on TV. We were lucky to have had him on TEON for so long. His replacement was beyond horrible.

 

I was initially impressed with Long's style on TGL, but became livid and when she and Gail Kobe slaughtered 2/3 of the cast and started telling lowbrow stories about talking computers, The Dreaming Death, etc. And I LOOOOOOOOOATHED Reva, so the 1980s ended up being hard for me as a TGL fan.

Edited December 31, 20177 yr by vetsoapfan

On 12/31/2017 at 1:43 AM, amybrickwallace said:

 

Didn't Rachel and Iris start out as friendly or at least cordial (before Rachel married Mac)?

 

I believe that Iris and Louise were tape recording Alice's conversations with Elliot when Alice was Dennis' nurse.  Rachel somehow got the tapes from Iris  to play them for Steve to show him that Alice was no longer interested in him.  This was around the time of the Watergate tape scandal and AW received mainstream press comparing the tape story to Watergate.

On 12/31/2017 at 4:58 PM, Soaplovers said:

I do wonder if Lemay had the idea to make Josie, Russ Matthews daughter, or if that was Donna Swajeski?  

 

I am sure that was Lemay's idea, as well as bringing Russ back to Bay City in March 1989.  Lemay was already gone from the show in November 1988, but it is always been stated that Swajeski borrowed heavily from Lemay's pre-written bible of story projections.   We probably did not see Swajeski's original storylines until Summer 1989 when the show had to revise storylines because of Douglass Watson's death.