ATWT: Week of January 12, 2009

[MarkH]

AMS' passion is incredible, and I cannot match it. I am not the "Mark" on Tom's blog. In fact, I feel quite differently.

The core premise, for me, is what Kay Alden meant when she said "Soaps are not an avante garde medium". (She said this at Sam Ford's MIT symposium, in relation to his Masters defense).

Another way I viewed the Nuke sex, specifically, was as "My heavens! There are boinking on homo-sect-choo-als on Aunt Mildred's STORIES!!! On ATWT!!! On one of the two oldest daytime shows! On a show that debuted in the Eisenhower era! On a show with a median viewer age in excess of 60 years! "

Much of the negative commentary about the "innovativeness" of this relates to the fact that Dynasty and Melrose Place and Brothers and Sisters and Hollyoaks and what have you all did it before.

True, that! And AMC has to continue to get credit for really having a core gay character first. (The history is longer, as you can see here).

So, why am I celebrating so much?

1. Full disclosure: I am NOT an ATWT viewer. I'm the worst kind of fan....I got dragged along into enthusiasm for Nuke, and that is truly the only story I follow. Kind of like Ollian on Verbotene Liebe.

2. It is not necessary the FIRST shoe to drop. Instead, I think Nuke may be interesting because it is the LAST shoe to drop. If we take the conservative, staid, stuck-in-the-past, pander-to-the-mainstream, do-not-inflame soap genre (I don't actually think it is all like that), and THEY have homo-sect-choo-als kissing and more...it is a true marker of culture change.

But in the end, my connection to this tale is more emotional, and it all goes back, again, to the fact that these are Aunt Mildred's STORIES! And now, with the wavy-whisps of an old-school flashback, I'm drawn back into the past... I am sorry this is a ramble, but it shows you that I'm not responding intellectually to this tale....

... what a difference might it have made to young men like me, 30 years ago, if Nuke had been around then. Back in the day when soaps were more truly intergenerational? To show that gay men were decent, loving, respectworthy members of core families. That their mothers and grandmothers and neighbors still loved them, even though they were attracted to the 'wrong' sex. How many doors of healthy conversation and attitude change might it have opened?

[For those who do not believe that the generational experience of coming out is a whole different thing, compare Saul and Kevin on Brothers and Sisters. That is a totally authentic representation of how things have changed.]

Young gay men probably look at Nuke and say "come on! No big deal! We've been here and queer forever! The timidity and forcedness of the Nuke story is so in contrast with our lives".

Maybe.

But man oh man oh man has the world changed!

Someone like me looks at Luke Snyder in AWE! The world has CHANGED! Imagine if, 37 years ago, Phil Brent had been a young gay man on AMC, and the triangle involving Chuck and Tara had been because Phil wanted Chuck! What a different world that would have been!

Even as the world moved along, soaps just DIDN'T. Not in major or significant ways (although that link above shows that some brave souls TRIED).

Now, finally, the "soap train" has arrived at the station. That is a big deal. (The "station", by the way, is the acceptance of gay male sexuality...as I posted earlier...for women it has been futher along).

When I look back on my nearly 44 years (damn, I feel old on this board), I simply cannot tell you how stunning Nuke is. It is truly akin (I know you'll accuse me of aggrandizing) how I imagine some African Americans felt when Obama became president. The world has changed!

All the feelings of things you could never achieve when you were younger...well that ceiling suddenly opens up...and you almost get a feeling of vertigo....imagine if the world had always been thus! How different might life have been?

Thirty years ago, there was NO ROLE MODEL, certainly not on soaps. Think about what Luke IS! He's the white-bread scion of a countrified-citified Oakdale...middle America...no crazy hair or dress or lifestyle. And average fella, he probably shops at malls instead of Soho thrift shops, not "loud and proud"...just a typical guy. (Yes, I know he is a Grimaldi...but I am ignoring that). To SEE THAT EVERY DAY!! EVERY DAY!!! Wow!

That changes the world! At least mine!

From the perspective of "jaded youth" that is well past all of this, I can see how Nuke is nothing special. From the perspective of someone who NEVER THOUGHT this day would come EVER....it is very special indeed.

For me, this is as fundamental as Uhura-Kirk. That interracial kiss was subversive, IMO, not because it was 'first', but because it infiltrated the white-male bastion of SciFi. If you were going to show that kind of 'miscegnation' to THAT audience....well...you had pushed the audience very far. ATWT is a very similar bastion....with a mainstream audience of older, homebound women....mothers of sons who live in environments where it still may not be acceptable to be gay. (You know...Prop 8 voters). Now, every day, even here, they cannot deny the existence of this reality. Maybe, if they don't tune out, they'll see that Luke and Noah are decent and regular. Not perverts or pedophiles or sluts. Just striped-shirt wearing doofuses who go to college. Maybe they will recognize their sons...and judge less harshly, having had their attitudes adjusted, if they sons turn out to be gay too. For all of you who are 'way past' a society that does not accept gay male sexuality, I'm here to remind you that the MAJORITY of people in many areas are NOT 'way past' the issue. ATWT and its ilk can be fundamental tools in the cultural evolution. (That is also why it is important to not yet p*ss those people off and show them sweaty thrusting in a bed. Get them ready in baby steps. That day will come...)

ETA: Oh yeah...INSTACOUPLE?? After over two years? INSTACOUPLE?? That just is no longer true. The FOUNDATIONS of the union may be shaky...and I'm not saying this is terrific writing. But honestly, they've earned the right with enough shared history to be more than an insta-couple.

[All My Shadows]

I'm gonna keep my replies to each quoted part to just a few words. It's not to come off as bitchy or anything lol, it's just because I have a tendency to ramble on and on and make long and boring posts. I'll summarize at the bottom.

Ah, gotcha. I kinda felt that it wasn't you because you expressed different thoughts here. And thanks. If there's one thing I'm passionate about, it's this issue. I want people to understand that not every gay person out there is full steam ahead in support Luke and Noah, and I want people to understand that not every person who isn't a fan is some homophobe out in the Ozarks somewhere.

Agreed. I felt the same way.

AMC is being looked over big time right now. If people are going to get all hot and heavy over kisses and Nukesex, I wonder where the excitement was when Reese and Bianca first came to town and were definitely not afraid to show their love for one another. If we're going just on that alone, it can be argued that R&B have blown L&N out of the water. That's all JMO, though.

I have nothing but respect for you because you're owning up to this. Many fans of Luke and Noah came in once they heard that "As the World Turns is doing a gay storyline, OMG I have to see how it goes!" And once Luke and Noah go, guess where they'll be? Exactly. If they haven't already fallen out of touch with the show, or better yet, just stick to watching the clips on YouTube. Those people are not As the World Turns viewers or fans or anything.

Ooooh, I never looked at it this way. You're right. I never thought of it like that. I remember when GH did the Lucas mini-storyline, some ignorant chick wrote a letter about how GH "has always been a family-friendly show, about love and romance with Christian values blah blah blah." Yes, yes, General Hospital, which had a good old-fashioned mob war shootout on Good Friday. Sure, bitch. Sure.

I can't argue with this. It's how you feel, and it's natural, and I agree with it whole-heartedly. My problem with Nuke were never the fact that they're doing this couple. It should be a big deal and the situation deserves to be reported in the press. My problem is that the story, and not the issue, fell so flat in so many ways.

Well, I don't disagree that there are self-confidant guys like that out there, but I'm not with them lol I'm from the south, and it's not as easy as it would be somewhere else. I figure that the Midwest would be the same way.

Trust me, I understand exactly what you mean, and I don't refute it anyway at all. I agree with it all, that the first gay teen couple is a big thing, and I think that Luke and Noah are doing everything that they should be doing, if that's what they're doing. As a person who isn't straight, I can only praise that ATWT went there, that P&G went there, that soaps went there. It's a very big thing to me that a gay teen couple exists in daytime, but when I'm watching it all, two parts of me are at odds with each other. The non-straight person and the soap opera fan. The non-straight person wants to ignore the contrived story that brought us to Nuke and just accept it and enjoy it and feel great about it, but the soap opera fan wants to say...but wait, how did these two fall in love? What do these two mean to each other? What about Luke made Noah decide to kiss him? What about Noah made Luke decide to kiss him? For me, those are questions that haven't been answered, and they still haven't. And that's where my problems lie, there. I have no issue with anything else that the show has done (note that I said "anything that the show has done," because there are other factors in this that turn me off too, but that's no fault of the show or the couple of anything), but this issue is big enough for me to say, well, look, I don't think that Luke and Noah are this great couple at all. The writers like to do little after-the-fact scenes, and I guess that's enough for some people, but for me, it isn't. If Luke and Noah broke up and spent several months apart, and then gradually worked their way back to each other, and we saw the beats of their romance all play out, then I'd be more enthusiastic about them.

Well, actually, it hasn't been over two years. Noah first appeared on June 1, 2007, and Luke tossed out that "falling for another straight guy" line to Jade on June 20.

And I was actually going into a total recap of this story, based on all the clips that were put on YouTube at the time, and then I realized that I was doing what I didn't want to do, which was make this an extremely long post. So, I guess after I finish watching most of these clips (well, up until Luke and Noah declare their "love" for each other), I'll post my commentary.

Mark, since you're not an ATWT viewer, I'm sure you never watched all this stuff. Please, please do, and tell me what you think. I don't think that anyone can watch all of this and not see where I'm coming from with it. God bless the Nuke fans who decided to put it ALL on YouTube because they don't realize that it helps my case more than it helps theirs!

[All My Shadows]

Okay, I watched the first 36 parts of the L&N story on YouTube (just counting down those days until I can occupy my time with university again LOL), and this is what I got from it all. It's a long, long, long rambling thing, so read at your own risk. If you want to watch the clips for yourselves to see how you react to it all without the pre-conceived notion that Luke/Noah are *meant to be* together, simply start here.

Luke was a bitch to Noah throughout their first meeting, and it wasn't the type of thing where you can tell a person is being a bitch because they really like the person. Luke came right on in and was just mean to the boy without even introducing himself. And then later, Noah and Maddie were devising the idea for a little series that they had to do for WOAK, Luke was still a pretty catty and blase about the whole thing. But then, he drops a box of tapes and Noah helps him pick them up and their hands touch, and so Luke is suddenly "falling for a straight guy." That he really couldn't have cared any less about just a little while earlier. And they ran with it from there. Luke didn't want to go to Branson because he didn't want to see Noah and Maddie together because it'd hurt his little heart, and then when he ended up going with Jade and he walked in on Noah and Maddie after they had sex, he gets all dramatic about it, as if Noah and Maddie weren't allowed to do it (which, IMO, they really shouldn't have done it that soon, but unlike Luke and Noah, we had great bonding scenes between Maddie and Noah and we saw a mutual attraction grow between the two of them over June and July). When Noah realizes that Luke is pissed, he doesn't even entertain the notion that it's because Luke is attracted to him, he just assumes that Luke wanted Maddie. And still, when Noah and Maddie did it, there was never any struggle on his end, he never seemed uncomfortable to be going that far with a girl, yet people think it's crazy talk to suggest that Noah is gay? He and Maddie hit it off so well, and they were definitely more than friends, but once Noah got a taste of the Luke poo poo platter (OMG whoever came up with that, thank you times a hundred), it was like there had never been anything at all between Maddie and Noah and if there had been, it was all built on lies and stuff that wasn't real.

I'm watching the clips of the storyline, and so this is all fresh in my mind right now. There was nothing that indicated that Noah is gay AT ALL during the first two months of him on the show. On the contrary, there's a great attraction between him and Maddie that is nonexistent with him and Luke. [And this is completely off topic, 100% off topic, but kinda not...but I forgot how much I really, really enjoyed the teens in Branson storyline that summer. I know, I know, but still, that was some good stuff, IMO at least. My girl Jade in fine form! Bashful hits Will! Andy Williams!] But let's see, where are we. Okay, see here it is again. Luke is being a little moody [!@#$%^&*] because he sees that Noah and Maddie are connecting and that Noah cares for Maddie. And okay, now we're back in Oakdale and at WOAK and Noah and Maddie don't understand why Luke is being moody and distant at work, and Noah is actually upset because he knows that Luke is pissed because he saw them after they did it in Branson, and he doesn't understand why Luke should have any opinion of it. And we have some good Noah/Maddie drama. Hmm. But Noah is gay. Yeah. Really. Sure. And now Noah is a little upset because Maddie kinda snubs him a little bit. [Jade leaves Oakdale! I miss her already!]

Oh my GOD, look there's Noah and Maddie EXPLAINING WHY THEY HAVE FEELINGS FOR EACH OTHER AND WHY THEY HAD SEX. And it doesn't look like Noah is making this [!@#$%^&*] up or lying either! He's really in to her!

Maddie: I don't want you to feel trapped or anything.

Noah: If this is trapped, I like it.

Come on, folks! But Noah isn't at the very least bisexual at all? And look, there's Luke lurking in the shadows, being moody yet again because of Noah and Maddie's burgeoning relationship. And so now, a couple of days later, Luke is suddenly all nice and sweet to Noah. And apparently, he's writing his "Lonely Girl" scripts based on his burgeoning "loooove" for Noah, the love that started when...when...when...Noah helped him pick up a box of videotapes. And he's undressing Noah with his eyes. And look, Maddie and Noah are being lovey-dovey again, but Noah doesn't like girls at all. And there's moodyLuke being moody. And here we go, Noah and Maddie suggest that Luke go out with them for pizza, but nope, he won't have any of that. He can't stand to see the sight of them together as a couple, because he loves Noah. He loves Noah because Noah helped him pick up a box of videotapes. Oh, but wait! Wait! Noah suggests that Luke write something where Lonely Girl explains why she loves the guy she loves. Are we going to find out why Luke "loves" Noah? Or is Lonely Girl in love because her mystery guy helped her pick up a box of videotapes, too?

Luke and Aaron having brotherly conversation.

Oh look, there's Brad! Okay, Noah suggests that he and Luke go out for something to eat while they work to find a kidnapped JJ. Of course, Luke turns him down (why!?). Maddie tells Luke that Noah's going to OU in the fall. Luke goes out for a second, then Noah and Maddie kiss, and Luke is moody about it again because he loves Noah because he helped him pick up a box of videotapes.

Noah and Maddie kissing in Olde Town, and now they're having couples conversation and then a little argument about Colonel Mayer (before he became Nuke's #1 hata). They make up and make out, and Maddie tells Noah that he has to go to Northwestern to follow his dreams. More couple stuff, and later Noah mentions that Maddie is his "girlfriend," which Maddie is a little taken aback by. Noah eases her into their relationship. But Noah is gay. Noah couldn't possibly like girls or be bisexual at all.

Okay, while waiting for "the big reveal" (Luke tells Noah that he has feelings for him) to load up, let's see something. Maddie and Noah are a couple, they're together, because Noah came in and helped Maddie move past her failed relationship with Casey. He helped her move on and forget. Maddie is convincing Noah to forget about what his father wants to start worrying about what *he* (Noah) wants for his life. And through it all, they're kissing, making out, flirting, having a good time. And Luke is being moody, lurking in the shadows because he has feelings for Noah. Because Noah helped him pick up a box of videotapes. Okay. Continuing on...

Noah wants to know why Luke is being so cold and distant to him. Luke says it's nothing, but Noah wants to know why Luke keeps pushing his offers of friendship away. Luke says it's because he "likes" Noah. "Likes" him "like that," meaning that he has feelings for Noah. Luke explains that he's tired of "hiding and lying," and Noah says that he hopes that he didn't do anything to lead Luke on because he's not gay. And Luke looks upset, because you know, Noah just had to be gay because he helped Luke pick up a box of videotapes. Meanwhile, Maddie chats it up with Vienna Sausages about her relationship with Noah. Hmm...confiding in someone who really isn't an integral part of the story? Hmm, sounds like a real life soap couple to me...but Noah is gay, Noah isn't bisexual, and it's crazy to think he is. Okay, and now Luke tells Noah that he (Noah) is uncomfortable around him (Luke). Sure whatever, it's all in your head dude. I have 28 YouTube videos that show that Noah is not in to you. But anyway, Luke confides in Noah that he feels like he's the only gay person in Oakdale, and Noah sympathizes with him, obviously thinking about his relationship with his father (don't ask me how it connects).

Anyway, Luke and Noah are now becoming friends (friends!) at WOAK. Noah talks about his past as a military kid, and they get off well. But anyway, Noah says that he doesn't see why Luke likes him, they barely know each other. Luke agrees (but he doesn't offer a reason why he DOES like Noah). Noah wants to be friends with Luke because Maddie is his only friend in Oakdale so far, but Luke says no, they can't be friends because of the things that happened with Kevin. Luke says that he's mad at himself for always "falling for the wrong guy," but in the end, they decide that they're "cool" with one another. Later, Maddie shows up at WOAK and she and Noah do some couple stuff and decide to go on a vacation together. Maddie is a little taken aback because she feels that their relationship is being rushed.

And everything from here on out, for the *most* part, I have no problems with. Luke and Noah start to talk and become friends, and they start to plant seeds of Noah feeling like he has to prove something by being with Maddie. And this is all good stuff, and it works for what it is, but to me, none of it works well at all because I still don't know why Luke "fell" for Noah in the first place, I don't know why Noah was perfectly comfortable around Luke after Luke came out to him, but now suddenly uncomfortable around Luke because Luke expresses an attraction to him (an attraction that was sparked by what?). If Noah felt attracted to Luke, shouldn't we have seen that in his reaction to Luke coming out in Branson? And still, because it can not be said enough, WHY was Luke attracted to Noah in the first place? WHAT caused him to get all pissy when he saw that Noah and Maddie were becoming a couple? WHERE did those feelings come from? And THAT, my friends, THAT is why I'm not crazy about Luke and Noah, Because we're a year and a couple of months into this pairing and we still don't know the answers to those questions, and even if they gave us those answers after the fact (which they haven't), it really makes no sense to withhold that information. It should have been one of the most important and integral parts of this couple's genesis, but it never happened.

All right, and I stopped a little bit after this, after Luke and Noah went to go swimming at the pond and had their "sexually charged" moment at the farmhouse. The thing is, after Luke confessed his crush to Noah and overcame his moodiness, the two of them were on a fast track to friendship, a true friendship. They started having friendly conversations and bonded over things. And I liked that. But if Noah was portrayed as positively straight for *everything* up until then, with absolutely no inkling of being gay on his part AT ALL, how am I supposed to believe that their friendly conversations were the beginning of a relationship? Luke had similar conversations with Jade when they became friends. Noah spent two months confiding in Maddie all about his messed up childhood. Why, then, when Luke and Noah have this conversation, it means (to Luke) that they could be more than just friends here? That's the kind of story holes that I don't get. After all of this, after the first kiss, after all the denial period, after all that, I admit that they are written as a good couple, and I find their scene to be romantic at times, but as long as I don't know why they're together (besides the fact that Luke dropped a box of videotapes and Noah helped him pick them up), I just won't be as over the moon as others are. Sorry.

[Actor87]

Ummm....not to piss in anyone's oatmeal, but let's not make this a "Was the Nuke sex good?" thread. This is a discussion thread for daily episodes. Not a discussion thread for the same day...over and over. It's fine to discuss it, but IMO this should be made into a different thread.

[All My Shadows]

True. I didn't watch today, so what did I "miss?"

[Soapsuds]

I wish the Liberty and Parker having sex were done offscreen but they are not. We get to see them in bed with Parker shirtless and them making out. Again, tomorrow we see them making out in Parker's bed. Yeah right Nuke had sex....Limbo and Parker have had more actually sex scenes than Luke has which is still none.

I just quoted everything. So many posts I want to respond too. Ummmm..to me there was no milestone on Monday's show. And you say they didnt get treated any worse...ummmmm all I say is Parker and Liberty. They are hot and heavy more than Nuke are. But I agree Nuke sucks and need a LOT of work.

I actually agree with Caseillo for the first time.

[Soapsuds]

You're pissing on my oatmeal Dusty. Since Monday's and most of the week has been about Nuke I think it is alright in my opinion to discuss whether or not Nuke even had sex. YOu can talk about the other parts of the show as well no one is telling you not too.

Today's show was more Nuke with Jade and Casey/Ally sprinkled in. I thought the Brian scenes with Lucinda were awesome. It's too bad that the

. Laurence Lau acted circles around Silberman. What a surprise..LOL. His scenes were outstanding.

[EastMA2]

I never get tired of watching Elizabeth Hubbard. She was great today. You can tell that she always adds more to the scene than was on the written page. Unlike the wooden Silbermann who says the lines verbatim with little to no emotion.

Lau was great too. I just wish ATWT wouldn't rush through storylines so fast. They miss alot of story beats.

[Soapsuds]

Yeah, La Hubbard was good today. But Lau stole the show today. I wish he would stay around. Silberman is just awful. Anyone can just say their lines with no emotion to them.

[P.J.]

I think that ship sailed about four pages ago, Dusty.

But now I know the truth. Anytime any two people are in a room with rumpled blankets, I'm assuming they had sex.

[Soapsuds]

Nice to see you posting PJ. But what were your thoughts about today's show. I want to know.

[SteveFrame]

Hell Parker and Liberty didn't have sex either. I didn't see any penetration so no sex happened there either. From now on unless I see actual penetration no one ever had sex.

[Soapsuds]

Well at least Liber HO and Parker were making out in the bed and the next shot is of Parker shirtless and Liber Ho without a bra. Hmmm...seems a lot more of scene than Nuke...LOL

[SteveFrame]

I'm just trying to be funny.

I'm worried at your stance that they didn't have sex because you didn't see them in bed. If we take that idealogy then so much does not happen on soaps today. It becomes another of those stupid fan base agendas that are hurting soaps today.

I can live with cop out better than anyone saying they did not have sex at all.

The writing that was used said they did and to argue with that opens up so much and that is my problem.

IF we cannot live by the writing and judge that and what was said then soaps are dead and have no chace at all of ever surviving. You might as well cancel them all today. Because in this day and time on soaps more stuff happens offscreen than ever before.

As I said before in this thread Hal Munsos didn't even die because one day he was alive and the next day they get a call that he died out of town. No one had sex because we didn't see it - we just have to assume they did.

It is a ridiculous argument to argue whether they had sex or not. Argue about whehter it was a cop out is okay but the other is just ridiculous and opens up way too much and just gives the fan bases something else to gripe about.

[Actor87]

The new Maddie sucks.