1 hour ago, DRW50 said:

I do wonder how much of the hostage-holding was, as mentioned, down to Robert Tyler wanting to leave and Jessica Collins actually leaving. Up to that point they did have Tucker moving on (didn't he ask Angie on a date only a few months after Trisha died?).

I agree The City was always doomed (I'm still surprised the idea even went through), but if they had had stronger story in place from the start...that probably wouldn't have helped either, to be honest, as I don't think the show was run in a lot of places, but maybe it would have given more time for a replacement soap that was stronger than early PC.

I am surprised they even teased Tucker/Angie - no other interracial relationships on ABC up to that point had involved the leading man, from what I remember. If that relationship had gone forward it would have been interesting, a world away from anything with Tucker and Dinah Lee. I don't know what they would have done, beyond the basics (presumably he would have had conflict with Frankie)

What you mention about Trisha is why I think she could have potentially found a home in The City, as her lack of memory was a blank slate. One story I thought about was if Trucker and Dinah Lee died and she had to raise Christopher, who had no memory of her as she had no memories of him, and they would learn to love each other, but you may also see glimpses of Trisha unknowingly making some of the same mistakes Gwyn and Clay made as parents.

I might put her in a pairing with Danny too, as he schemes to get her money but then falls for her.

Angie/Trucker would've been intriguing. She's a beloved legacy character and could've challenged him. But, as you pointed out, soap operas at that time were very resistant to interracial romances. Neil and Victoria were squashed on Y&R quickly in 98/99 due to backlash that led to actual threats. Now, it's more commonplace. Trucker comes off so basic and stuck in a loop of being caught up in whatever woman he's with, and Dinah Lee's characterization is no better, and it's a wrap once the role is recast.

Phantom Trisha is exhausting, but I like your idea of her being in The City on second thought. She would've made a much better fit than Morgan Fairchild's Sydney Chase. I have nothing against MF, but why her and that character to launch the show? I have the first three months of The City (to see the beginning and how Cooper and Steffi wrapped up), and Sydney does nothing for me. Not even when she squabbles with Tess, who wears black almost all the time. Even on Loving, she's usually in black. It becomes noticeable after a while.

Danny and Trisha could've had potential. Much better than Ally and Danny. The chemistry was there, but the well was poisoned.

Jane Elliot could've also been part of the launching pad of The City. You can never go wrong with the sheer force of will with an actress of that caliber, but both she and Tracy Quartermaine always belonged on GH/Port Charles.

,

27 minutes ago, CrazySexyQ said:

Angie/Trucker would've been intriguing. She's a beloved legacy character and could've challenged him. But, as you pointed out, soap operas at that time were very resistant to interracial romances. Neil and Victoria were squashed on Y&R quickly in 98/99 due to backlash that led to actual threats. Now, it's more commonplace. Trucker comes off so basic and stuck in a loop of being caught up in whatever woman he's with, and Dinah Lee's characterization is no better, and it's a wrap once the role is recast.

Phantom Trisha is exhausting, but I like your idea of her being in The City on second thought. She would've made a much better fit than Morgan Fairchild's Sydney Chase. I have nothing against MF, but why her and that character to launch the show? I have the first three months of The City (to see the beginning and how Cooper and Steffi wrapped up), and Sydney does nothing for me. Not even when she squabbles with Tess, who wears black almost all the time. Even on Loving, she's usually in black. It becomes noticeable after a while.

Danny and Trisha could've had potential. Much better than Ally and Danny. The chemistry was there, but the well was poisoned.

Jane Elliot could've also been part of the launching pad of The City. You can never go wrong with the sheer force of will with an actress of that caliber, but both she and Tracy Quartermaine always belonged on GH/Port Charles.

Dinah Lee was just carried by Jessica Collins. Instead of pairing her with Tucker I might have throw her back to Clay. She might have married him and became the lady of the manor, but then he got bored and started falling for Steffi, someone even younger than Dinah Lee, and she'd start to feel what Gwyn felt.

I love Morgan Fairchild but I was never sure why ABC worked so hard to court her as she was not a big name by 1995. I guess they didn't get what they expected, based on the crass and needless way they killed Sydney in the finale.

Jane was fantastic and lit up The City from her first appearance. It may have been better to have her there from the start, as you said, maybe initially poor and cut off from her family and slowly climbing the ranks.

Trisha being there from the start could have been interesting - maybe too much of a reminder of the Loving Murders, but then she wouldn't have any reaction to that anyway. There would also be some conflict with characters like Steffi who would be mourning her mother more than she ever could.

From "LOVING/The City" Soap Operas & Currently “GH,” Laura Wright Cameo- The BEST! Part One!

He also has several Cameos with Lauren Marie Taylor and Randolph Mantooth.

I didn't know she was still friends with Eric Woodall. Or that Jessica Collins tested for Ally.

Edited 3 hours ago3 hr by DRW50

25 minutes ago, DRW50 said:

From "LOVING/The City" Soap Operas & Currently “GH,” Laura Wright Cameo- The BEST! Part One!

He also has several Cameos with Lauren Marie Taylor and Randolph Mantooth.

I didn't know she was still friends with Eric Woodall. Or that Jessica Collins tested for Ally.

Laura has such a vibrant energy and a genuine love and enthusiasm when she talks about her time on soaps. It's really nice that so many lasting friendships were formed from her time on Loving. I wouldn't mind if PAS ever joined GH and Carly meets her latest soulmate.

I'm not surprised at all that MW was cutting up on set. It's a trait he has carried throughout his career.

Laura was perfectly cast as Ally, and Jessica Collins as Dinah Lee. The casting director got it perfect.

Let's revisit a 1988 SOD review of Loving from Christopher Schemering (who in 1984 proclaimed it the best soap on the air.)

Loving: The Bland and the Beautiful?

November, 1988

By Christopher Schemering

To paraphrase an old saying, it ain't kosher to kick somebody (or in this case, something) when they're down. LOVING has limped along for more than five years, and has been close to the bottom of the ratings barrel during its entire run. Is it a case of too many cooks spoiling the broth? Could it be bad luck? Is it an innocuous serial which neither provokes nor offends anyone? Have dull story lines failed to capture the audience's imagination?

It's probably a combination of all of the above. LOVING, which premiered on June 26, 1983 with a two-hour Sunday night special, seemed to be a winner at the starting gate. It had many things going for it: the show was created by TV-legend Agnes Nixon (ALL MY CHILDREN and ONE LIFE TO LIVE) and AS THE WORLD TURNS's current head writer, Douglas Marland, (who had scripted GENERAL HOSPITAL during its miraculous comeback in the 1978-79 season, and who won two Emmys for Outstanding Writing for GUIDING LIGHT). It was also produced by veteran Joseph Stuart, who had guided OLTL through many of its most memorable moments.

The soap began pleasingly enough with a variety of stories, families, and characters. There were the Forbes, Alden, Donovan and Vochek clans. There was the bitterness of Vietnam veteran Mike Donovan (splendidly played by James Kiberd), who couldn't shake his resentment of how Vietnam vets were treated in this country after the war was over (Included was beautiful location footage taped at the Vietnam Veteran Wall in Washington, DC, which resulted in more emotionally packed set pieces). There was Lily Slater (played by the then-underrated Jennifer Ashe; now Meg, ATWT), who was sexually abused by her father, Garth. His death led into a better-than-average murder mystery. And, there was handsome Father Jim Vochek (Peter Davies), who struggled with his committment to the priesthood.

Frankly, all of this was refreshing, considering almost all the serials of the day were totally entrenched in espionage stories. LOVING was clicking in every department except one: the romantic aspects of the show - the loving. The romantic pairings lacked chemistry and there were so many hackneyed love triangles that one thought the plots were retreads from the soaps of the fifties. Jack Forbes fell in love with Stacey Donovan but married Ava Rescott, an Erica clone, after she became pregnant with his child. (Remember Ava, after suffering a miscarriage, stuffed her maternity outfits with pillows for months to hold on to Jack. A low point.) Stacey hooked up with Tony Perelli, but he impregnated Lorna Forbes, and their engagement was off. Stacey should have stood on the corner handing out birth control information. (Her sister-in-law, Noreen, was supposedly a nurse involved in AIDS research. The show was certainly giving out mixed messages.)

During this mish mash, Douglas Marland bailed out and the show got even worse. Almost every pivotal role was recast, sometimes three times, causing untold continuity problems. The audience was always kept off-balance. Then came the decision to write out most of the original cast, and entire families disappeared from Corinth. After five years there are only four original cast members left: Peter Davies's Jim, Perry Stephens's Jack, Lauren-Marie Taylor's Stacey, and Wesley Addy's Cabot Alden. The romances became a s monotonous as the leading men, who all looked and acted alike. It was a preppie nightmare.

The single exception was a rather sweet, star-crossed romance between poor Steve Sowolsky and wealthy Trisha Alden. Their relationship was thwarted by the dull machinations of the unimaginative villainess Cecelia Thompson (played by three different actresses). More savvy in the scheming department was Trisha's mom, the truly odious Gwyneth, who went after Steve's father, Harry. The elder Sowolsky fell madly in love with Ann Alden. The story line, which included betrayal, bitch wit, and wonderful character development, ended when actor Ed Moore left the show to pursue other interests. John R. Johnston also exited, so Steve died.

All that recasting business was replaced by an appalling revolving door of characters and stories. This overload - especially in a half-hour show - caused more confusion. During the past two seasons there have been write-in and write-outs of: the Beecham family (Linc, Rebekka, Zona, Judd); Zach Conway, Kelly Conway, Rob Carpenter, Lotty Bates, Eban Japes, Nick Dinatos, Tony Benedict, Jenny Baylor and April Hathaway. Jacqueline Courtney was brought in to play Diane Winston, a madam in a bordello. It was a story with possibilities, but it was abruptly dropped. The characters of Marty Edison and Alan Howard were embroiled in a dreary fatal attraction story before their exits. At least the most recent fatal attraction plot, involving Jack, Stacey and Lily, had its moments, perpetuated future story and character development, and gave three talented performers - especially Perry Stephens - some dicey scenery to chew on.

Ironically, the show vastly improved during the writers' strike. There were tightly woven stories ,such as the Clay Alden/Alex Masters "unmasking," a plot with the potential to blow half of Corinth's inhabitants out of the water. There was finally some realistic dramatic ambivalence between Shana and Jim Vochek in their four-year romance. The new sexual tension was far more provocative than falling back on such hoary devices as years of straddling the fence (the priesthood versus marriage issue), amnesia, miscarriage, spies, and a nasty spat with the devil himself. The Jack/Stacy/Rick triangle was equally pleasing.

The introduction of the delightful Linda Cook as Egypt Jones (an Opal Gardner clone) certianly perked things up. Louise Stubbs as her best friend and sassy, one-woman Greek chorus, Minnie Madden, is a riot. Minnie's dance with Kate Rescott to a Frank Sinatra record was one of the most enjoyable moments of the year. One hopes Minnie is not used as the token black on the show. (Wouldn't it be wonderful if Lt. Art Hindman were her estranged son?) Randolph Mantooth's Clay/Alex and Mark Pinter's Dan Hollister have also broken out of the blandness of the former leading men, but variations in costuming would certainly help.

We are living in the world of the one-hour soap opera. RYAN'S HOPE and THE BOLD AND THE BEAUTIFUL have recognized this by adapting themselves to the hour format within the limitations of the half-hour soap. They might open with a few teasers, but then wisely juxtapose quick scenes with long scenes, which allows for depth and resonance. Both shows often present very effective commercial-to-commercial scenes. LOVING would be wise to adapt this technique. The show is too choppy and the audience has little to savor. The constant interruptions when Ava spoke movingly about her miscarriage and the guilt she felt killed the flow of Roya Megnot's beautifully delivered performance.

LOVING might have recently discovered some snap and crackle, but still no pop. Stop the recasting and the revolving door of new characters, the short-short story lines, the playing-it-safe characters and stories. Take some risks. You're headed in the right direction, but if a show can't have confidence in itself, no one else can.

7 hours ago, DRW50 said:

I agree The City was always doomed (I'm still surprised the idea even went through), but if they had had stronger story in place from the start...that probably wouldn't have helped either, to be honest, as I don't think the show was run in a lot of places, but maybe it would have given more time for a replacement soap that was stronger than early PC.

Frankly, it never made sense to me that ABCD would launch a brand-new soap (and one that promised to turn many soap conventions on their proverbial heads) with characters from one that never gained any traction in the ratings. Why not spin off characters from AMC, OLTL or GH instead?

Edited 1 hour ago1 hr by Khan

3 minutes ago, Khan said:

Frankly, it never made sense to me that ABCD would launch a brand-new soap (and one that promised to turn many soap conventions on their proverbial heads) with characters from one that never gained any traction in the ratings. Why not spin off characters from AMC, OLTL or GH instead?

The only thing I can think is they were done with Loving but didn't have a GH spinoff ready, although that probably doesn't make sense as they had to spend a lot of time and money on setting up and promoting The City ,and Morgan's salary. They must have had some hope for trying the radical (on paper anyway) changes of The City while also recognizing the talented cast they would be losing with Loving. But it was probably never going to click, even if they hadn't wasted the first months of The City.

5 hours ago, DRW50 said:

I love Morgan Fairchild but I was never sure why ABC worked so hard to court her as she was not a big name by 1995. I guess they didn't get what they expected, based on the crass and needless way they killed Sydney in the finale.

I see what you mean, lol.

Yeah, in retrospect, courting MF like that doesn't make too much sense. (Maybe they were going after people who still remembered FLAMINGO ROAD and PAPER DOLLS fondly?)

On the other hand, I'm at a loss as to naming someone who still was a big name in '95 AND who would've been willing to (relocate to NYC and) headline a brand-new soap. Susan Lucci might've gotten people at least to sample the show, but no way was ABCD gonna let her leave AMC, lol.

Edited 1 hour ago1 hr by Khan

1 minute ago, DRW50 said:

The only thing I can think is they were done with Loving but didn't have a GH spinoff ready, although that probably doesn't make sense as they had to spend a lot of time and money on setting up and promoting The City ,and Morgan's salary. They must have had some hope for trying the radical (on paper anyway) changes of The City while also recognizing the talented cast they would be losing with Loving. But it was probably never going to click, even if they hadn't wasted the first months of The City.

I agree.

I, myself, might've casted maybe 2 or 3 actors from LOVING to work on TC, but not to play their characters on the former show. Otherwise, TC needed to distance itself from LOVING entirely, if it had any chance at all of survival.

11 minutes ago, Khan said:

Frankly, it never made sense to me that ABCD would launch a brand-new soap (and one that promised to turn many soap conventions on their proverbial heads) with characters from one that never gained any traction in the ratings. Why not spin off characters from AMC, OLTL or GH instead?

I'm a big defender of The City but it's true that when it launched, they didn't really have compelling stories to launch it with, so pretty quickly (I can't remember HOW quickly) they jumped to the Masquerade (I think it was called?) serial storyline which was SOOO misguided on so many levels. Was this the network interfering saying "well we got SOME traction and attention from a serial killer storyline on Loving, so..." Was it just Brown/Esensten scrambling? (I would definitely ask Brown about this if I had the chance.) Because it was doomed to failure. The entire reason the Loving Murders were so unique was that anyone could die and we had some sort of history with these characters. By design, this is lost when you use it to really launch a new show (and did we think they were going to kill off Angie or Ally or someone else they had brought over from Corinth??)

And, like I have said way too often, it actually played better as a late night soap as KOMO in Seattle aired it in the end of its run--and maybe could have captured the new audience they wanted?

Now here's a weird theory I have. Loving was always owned by Agnes Nixon's Dramatic Creations company (her second--I believe OLTL and AMC were owned until 77 or so by Creative Horizons but I may have the company names mixed up.) What if ABC had some weird contract with them that made it make sense for ABC (despite the reported cost of The City) to play out that contract with a show--essentially a rebrand of Loving but maybe under the end of the same or a similar contract?? And then of course they pretty quickly just replaced it with their own show, PC. I have NO idea how any of this stuff works, but is there any chance that could be a factor?

6 minutes ago, Khan said:

I agree.

I, myself, might've casted maybe 2 or 3 actors from LOVING to work on TC, but not to play their characters on the former show. Otherwise, TC needed to distance itself from LOVING entirely, if it had any chance at all of survival.

I actually don't agree there. I think they would have had no loss and only gained to bring over a couple of Loving characters but not make it a true spin off. Hell, maybe just Angie and Jacob--that way you still in theory would have still had some interest from what ever Loving loyalists there were... (I was still a weird teen and one reason I didn't watch PC, and not just because I wasn't a big GH viewer, was I didn't want to see Debbi Morgan as much as I loved her in a new role straight away--I wanted more Angie. I don't think she even lasted long on PC?)

2 minutes ago, EricMontreal22 said:

I'm a big defender of The City but it's true that when it launched, they didn't really have compelling stories to launch it with, so pretty quickly (I can't remember HOW quickly) they jumped to the Masquerade (I think it was called?) serial storyline which was SOOO misguided on so many levels. Was this the network interfering saying "well we got SOME traction and attention from a serial killer storyline on Loving, so..." Was it just Brown/Esensten scrambling? (I would definitely ask Brown about this if I had the chance.) Because it was doomed to failure. The entire reason the Loving Murders were so unique was that anyone could die and we had some sort of history with these characters. By design, this is lost when you use it to really launch a new show (and did we think they were going to kill off Angie or Ally or someone else they had brought over from Corinth??)

I agree: "Masquerade" was just a nothing-burger of a mystery.

I, too, wonder if Agnes Nixon/Dramatic Creations played a part in ABCD's decision to make TC a continuation (of sorts) of LOVING. Like you've said, @EricMontreal22 , the network might've been bound contractually to launch the new show with characters from the old. (If that's the case, then maybe they were better off bringing back "Mike & Maty," lol).

6 hours ago, DRW50 said:

Dinah Lee was just carried by Jessica Collins. Instead of pairing her with Tucker I might have throw her back to Clay. She might have married him and became the lady of the manor, but then he got bored and started falling for Steffi, someone even younger than Dinah Lee, and she'd start to feel what Gwyn felt.

I love Morgan Fairchild but I was never sure why ABC worked so hard to court her as she was not a big name by 1995. I guess they didn't get what they expected, based on the crass and needless way they killed Sydney in the finale.

Jane was fantastic and lit up The City from her first appearance. It may have been better to have her there from the start, as you said, maybe initially poor and cut off from her family and slowly climbing the ranks

Agreed with all of this. Again, I didn't have a history with Tracy Q (in fact the first time I saw her was in the GH episode on Daytime to Remember where she witholds Edward's pills, that aired between The City and PC.) So maybe if I did I'd agree with Khan that she didn't fit on The City, but I thought basically from her first appearance on she brought that something that had been sorely missing from the show, and Sydney never provided (to be honest, I barely remember Sydney's interactions with the other characters except for I guess her son Richard.)

Just now, Khan said:

I agree: "Masquerade" was just a nothing-burger of a mystery.

I, too, wonder if Agnes Nixon/Dramatic Creations played a part in ABCD's decision to make TC a continuation (of sorts) of LOVING. Like you've said, @EricMontreal22 , the network might've been bound contractually to launch the new show with characters from the old. (If that's the case, then maybe they were better off bringing back "Mike & Maty," lol).

Right--I KNOW this is too simplistic but could it have been a case of "Well we still have to pay Dramatic Creations for another 18 months (or whatever,) let's give this new idea a try (and Dramatic Creations hoping against hope that it might extend their life at ABC further?)

HA I think it would be brilliant to do a spin off but with all characters from Loving that had been forgotten or were complete duds :D

This part of the Schemering review stands out to me:

"We are living in the world of the one-hour soap opera. RYAN'S HOPE and THE BOLD AND THE BEAUTIFUL have recognized this by adapting themselves to the hour format within the limitations of the half-hour soap. They might open with a few teasers, but then wisely juxtapose quick scenes with long scenes, which allows for depth and resonance. Both shows often present very effective commercial-to-commercial scenes. LOVING would be wise to adapt this technique. The show is too choppy and the audience has little to savor. The constant interruptions when Ava spoke movingly about her miscarriage and the guilt she felt killed the flow of Roya Megnot's beautifully delivered performance."

Because rewatching 1994 Loving while watching the AMC episodes from 1995 that are airing here, one thing I've been sooo loving about AMC is just how long so many of the scenes still in 1995 were. And honestly usually very well written, so you have emotional if not story (but often that too) progress in every single scene. And Loving, though I think over all the writing holds up from 1994, seems keen to make up for being only 22 minutes by just having shorter scenes.