27 minutes ago, Kane said:

Her IMDB listed age is almost certainly incorrect, as it would mean that she was only 17 when she started on the show in 1984. That said, she was playing a character much older than herself, as Gwyneth would have been born in about 1944, given Rick's stated year of birth. I would guess that she was born sometime in the 1950s and is probably about the same age as Callan White (who was also playing a character about decade older than she was).

Thanks. I know this was random, but it's been bothering me, and I really do appreciate all the Loving historians. It's my favorite little soap that could.

Christine's age being wrong on IMDb/Google was my assumption, but you never know. Some people do genuinely look older/younger. But she should be in her 70s if the younger set are now in their 50s (Which is wild!).

Because I was on my Loving binge, it got me interested in NCIS. Michael Weatherly was born to play Special Agent Anthony DiNozzo, but he is very self-deprecating when it comes to his time on soaps. In more than one clip, he talks about how bad he was at playing Cooper Alden --- going home in a huff and being sick to his stomach because he was sure his performance stunk; that Celeste Holm was one of his co-stars who pulled him aside and told him he needed to watch the show and invest in the character. I didn't think he was young Robert DeNiro, but there's a charm and skill there. Most of the younger actors were green at the start, but now they're pros. Amelia and Laura have Emmys. I wish Paul Anthony Stewart could've gotten the same recognition.

This must be some early Burke Moses as Curtis. I'd only seen near the end of his run.

LOVING SOAP OPERA Random Episodes Part #100!

He has that same aggressive mode he had as Sean Baxter on ATWT, but I suppose it fits Curtis more than that character.

Edited yesterday at 03:20 AM1 day by DRW50

Random--but last week the Wiki for Loving still had dates beside when was EP and who was HW when--and now they're gone... So which of you removed them? :P

The newest fragments have the setup for Zack and Lorna's exit, and more importantly, the start of "Clay's" return. I didn't know they were around the same time. Just posting this as it's the only clip with the Clay mention. A shame Lorna (or the Lorna who had a personality, anyway) never got to interact with him. She would have given him some hell.

LOVING SOAP OPERA Random Episodes Part #103! - YouTube

Edited 13 hours ago13 hr by DRW50

Another episode setting up Clay's return. We get to see the Corinth public library and the front of the paper. @dc11786 @Kane did we get to see those very often?

LOVING SOAP OPERA Random Episodes Part #108! - YouTube

They also got some use out of Christine Tudor headshots.

I'm also confused as to why "Clay" was doing all this if he was just an impostor. Did they change the story later in the year? Or is he just trying to destabilize Gwyn for his schemes? It seemed like Alex's "Clay" always hated Gwyn more than the real Clay ever did.

There's also another glimpse of Rebecca Staab as Cecilia here:

LOVING SOAP OPERA Random Episodes Part #110! Wrong Thumbnail, mostly Superman but shows Cecelia - YouTube

They should have used that last shot in the Murders storyline.

Fittingly, this upload takes place not long after Clay disappeared. (and even more Rebecca Staab Cecilia, wearing her aerobics outfit to work)

LOVING SOAP OPERA Random Episodes Part #109! - YouTube

Edited 11 hours ago11 hr by DRW50

@DRW50 I feel like Clay being an imposter was always the plan. Otherwise why send someone ahead to "warn" the family that Clay had to have extensive plastic surgery and they wouldn't recognize him? I also feel like Rick exists because of the imposter story, since he's the means by which Ava discovers the truth (and this is really the only function that Rick serves that Curtis couldn't have).

Alex hating Gwyneth more than Clay ever did makes a bit of sense if you consider that he came to Corinth having only gotten Clay's version of their story, which doubtless sanitized Clay's own misdeeds (and, of course, Gwyneth didn't exactly cover herself in glory with all she'd been up to since leaving the real Clay in France)

The show continued to get mileage out of the conflict between Clay and Alex practically until the end, but I've always found it a bit curious that they never seemed to revisit the tension between Alex and Gwyneth later on. When Gwyneth is working with the police in '95, you'd never know that Alex and Gwyn were ever anything other than cordial if you didn't know their history. But perhaps that speaks to the loss of continuity post-1992 that @dc11786 spoke of in an earlier post.

Edited 11 hours ago11 hr by Kane

22 minutes ago, Kane said:

I feel like Clay being an imposter was always the plan. Otherwise why send someone ahead to "warn" the family that Clay had to have extensive plastic surgery and they wouldn't recognize him? I also feel like Rick exists because of the imposter story, since he's the means by which Ava discovers the truth (and this is really the only function that Rick serves that Curtis couldn't have).

Alex hating Gwyneth more than Clay ever did makes a bit of sense if you consider that he came to Corinth having only gotten Clay's version of their story, which doubtless sanitized Clay's own misdeeds (and, of course, Gwyneth didn't exactly cover herself in glory with all she'd been up to since leaving the real Clay in France)

The show continued to get mileage out of the conflict between Clay and Alex practically until the end, but I've always found it a bit curious that they never seemed to revisit the tension between Alex and Gwyneth later on. When Gwyneth is working with the police in '95, you'd never know that Alex and Gwyn were ever anything other than cordial if you didn't know their history. But perhaps that speaks to the loss of continuity post-1992 that @dc11786 spoke of in an earlier post.

You're right - it must have been planned out. Just such an odd re-intro.

Clay was often horrible to Gwyn, and she was sometimes horrible to him, but several Clay actors played a love for Gwyn too, or at least a connection no one could break (even as they both tried). It might have been interesting if Alex had fallen for Gwyn too, but I guess that story was already messy enough.

Not having any real reference to the past between Gwyn and Alex was a missed opportunity. I guess Gwyn had changed personality so much during Alex's absence from Corinth their history became even more remote, but it could have led to a moment when Gwyn was the last Alden standing.

On 6/14/2026 at 11:27 PM, Soaplovers said:

It's probably why Kelly ends up being phased out in the first half of 1987 and the focus of the teen scene shifts to Ned/April/Kristen... which doesn't seem to last very long nor is there a strong connection to the rest of the canvas. Considering all three performers were over 18.. why they weren't college students at Alden University.. I'll never get.

In fact, the April story could have tied back into the mystery that ran through the pilot instead of being some random story that came out of nowhere and was over just as quickly as it began.

I think the original plan for the Ned / April story did involve Kelly. I think Kelly / Rob / Ned are all on at the same time and then possibly Kelly / Ned / April. I believe Teri Polo's Kirsten essentially was slotted into the Kelly role. I believe this was also when they had the original Dave Hindman around for the storyline involving his inability to read and the coach pushing him on the basketball team anyway.

I appreciate that Nixon appeared to be trying something different with April in that she seemed to benot more of a high end call girl. I just don't think there were many elements of that story that could have worked given the characters involved, the actors, and the general storyline.

17 hours ago, EricMontreal22 said:

Random--but last week the Wiki for Loving still had dates beside when was EP and who was HW when--and now they're gone... So which of you removed them? :P

If you look at the edit history, you can see them, but a good number were inaccurate anyway.

3 hours ago, DRW50 said:

The newest fragments have the setup for Zack and Lorna's exit, and more importantly, the start of "Clay's" return. I didn't know they were around the same time. Just posting this as it's the only clip with the Clay mention. A shame Lorna (or the Lorna who had a personality, anyway) never got to interact with him. She would have given him some hell.

LOVING SOAP OPERA Random Episodes Part #103! - YouTube

There is some early episodes in the list with Clay's origin story, just no Zack or Lorna, from waht I recall, which was a blessing.

1 hour ago, DRW50 said:

Another episode setting up Clay's return. We get to see the Corinth public library and the front of the paper. @dc11786 @Kane did we get to see those very often?

LOVING SOAP OPERA Random Episodes Part #108! - YouTube

They also got some use out of Christine Tudor headshots.

I'm also confused as to why "Clay" was doing all this if he was just an impostor. Did they change the story later in the year? Or is he just trying to destabilize Gwyn for his schemes? It seemed like Alex's "Clay" always hated Gwyn more than the real Clay ever did.

During the Men of Loving interview, Randolph Mantooth said he was hired to play Clay Alden. Seven or so months into the role, the exectuviutive producer came up to him and told him he was an imposter. If it was the plan all along, Mantooth wasn't in on it.

The initial Clay storyline is very similar to what Ralph Ellis wrote for Rusty Sentell on Search for Tomorrow in his 1982 run. The presumed dead father from a wealthy family (in Rusty's case, by marriage) who was recruited to work with a spy network only to return from the grave to be a conflict for those around him.

I'm also never completely clear on how Marland's Clay died. Was it in France? I know later when they are changing from Christopher Marcantel to Linden Ashby Curtis goes to South East Asia to look for Clay so I guess there was some changes at some point.

44 minutes ago, Kane said:

The show continued to get mileage out of the conflict between Clay and Alex practically until the end, but I've always found it a bit curious that they never seemed to revisit the tension between Alex and Gwyneth later on. When Gwyneth is working with the police in '95, you'd never know that Alex and Gwyn were ever anything other than cordial if you didn't know their history. But perhaps that speaks to the loss of continuity post-1992 that @dc11786 spoke of in an earlier post.

I think a big source of the purging of the continuity is Haidee Granger. It is rumored she ran off Addie Walsh and I feel like the original Burnell's story in 1992 was for Curtis to return running the department store and romancing Ava. Nothing about the Phantom of Burnell's story made sense with the established history of Burnell's as an Alden property.

Also, even the cop uniforms change after 1991. More modern and less like the outfits you saw Mike Donovan in.

2 minutes ago, dc11786 said:

There is some early episodes in the list with Clay's origin story, just no Zack or Lorna, from waht I recall, which was a blessing.

During the Men of Loving interview, Randolph Mantooth said he was hired to play Clay Alden. Seven or so months into the role, the exectuviutive producer came up to him and told him he was an imposter. If it was the plan all along, Mantooth wasn't in on it.

The initial Clay storyline is very similar to what Ralph Ellis wrote for Rusty Sentell on Search for Tomorrow in his 1982 run. The presumed dead father from a wealthy family (in Rusty's case, by marriage) who was recruited to work with a spy network only to return from the grave to be a conflict for those around him.

I'm also never completely clear on how Marland's Clay died. Was it in France? I know later when they are changing from Christopher Marcantel to Linden Ashby Curtis goes to South East Asia to look for Clay so I guess there was some changes at some point.

I think a big source of the purging of the continuity is Haidee Granger. It is rumored she ran off Addie Walsh and I feel like the original Burnell's story in 1992 was for Curtis to return running the department store and romancing Ava. Nothing about the Phantom of Burnell's story made sense with the established history of Burnell's as an Alden property.

Also, even the cop uniforms change after 1991. More modern and less like the outfits you saw Mike Donovan in.

Thanks. I'll have to look for those.

I could see them keeping the twist from Randolph, but they were lucky he didn't get upset if that was the case. He seemed to invest a lot into Clay (he did fine with Alex too but Alex was a more typical role for him).

I think you've said you were not a fan of this Clay story - did you prefer the Rusty version?

Curtis returning for a more mature Ava is a more compelling idea than having him as the cuckold for Dinah Lee (and not knowing what to do with Ava until Alex returned).

The way some of the Alden mansion and riverboat casino scenes are shot here is so odd. I guess the idea is to show Clay lurking in the Alden scenes but then you get the same with the casino scenes at times.

At least we see how big this set (and the riverboat casino set) were. Loving's set designers always seemed to use their funds wisely.

I don't really care for the Trisha story at this time. I don't think any of this suits the character but it also feels like such generic supercouple separation angst. Noelle Beck does her best.

LOVING SOAP OPERA Random Episodes Part #107! - YouTube

Edited 8 hours ago8 hr by DRW50

3 hours ago, dc11786 said:

If you look at the edit history, you can see them, but a good number were inaccurate anyway.

I think a big source of the purging of the continuity is Haidee Granger. It is rumored she ran off Addie Walsh and I feel like the original Burnell's story in 1992 was for Curtis to return running the department store and romancing Ava. Nothing about the Phantom of Burnell's story made sense with the established history of Burnell's as an Alden property.

You're right of course--the earlier dates for the various writers and even EPs were often a bit off (which is true for a lot of the soap wiki pages) but still it seems weird for someone to edit them and get rid of the dates.

Am I completely misremembering that part of the issue between Haidee Granger and Addie Walsh was about how the Cooper Alden sexual abuse story was changed? The Loving blog says he was created by Walsh and just says this in his profile "In fact, he has difficulty becoming physically intimate with anyone because of an incident during his childhood involving his former nanny, Selena, which is at first implied to be rape of Cooper by Selena but is later rewritten as Cooper touching Selena’s breast and being caught in her bed by his parents." https://lovingsoapopera.wordpress.com/2021/05/05/character-profile-cooper-alden/

Over the past week I've been rewatching the 1993 (and now 1994) Loving playlists on YT which I hadn't really revisited except random episodes since seeing when they aired... Certainly it's interesting to see when Agnes Nixon takes over just how she starts to introduce (and sometimes change existing characters, stories) to some tropes we associate with her (like pretty much immediately giving Steffi an awful mother as soon as Nixon's name shows up in the credits.)

1 hour ago, DRW50 said:

The way some of the Alden mansion and riverboat casino scenes are shot here is so odd. I guess the idea is to show Clay lurking in the Alden scenes but then you get the same with the casino scenes at times.

At least we see how big this set (and the riverboat casino set) were. Loving's set designers always seemed to use their funds wisely.

I don't really care for the Trisha story at this time. I don't think any of this suits the character but it also feels like such generic supercouple separation angst. Noelle Beck does her best.

LOVING SOAP OPERA Random Episodes Part #107! - YouTube

Yeah the size of Loving's sets (obviously the Alden mansion but other ones as well) always was impressive I thought. But you're spot on about how weird the direction is in some of these scenes--the scenes with people just sitting on couches in the mansion, which is shot from far away and above made me think at first that I was just watching someone doing their own filming of a dress rehearsal or something.

5 hours ago, DRW50 said:

I think you've said you were not a fan of this Clay story - did you prefer the Rusty version?

Curtis returning for a more mature Ava is a more compelling idea than having him as the cuckold for Dinah Lee (and not knowing what to do with Ava until Alex returned).

I don't particularly enjoy the spy aspect of the Clay / Alex story. Watching some of those early clips posted in the Random Episodes series, I do appreciate some of the character work in the story and find James Horan much more compelling than I originally thought. The whole thing operates on a level of surreality with everyone in Clay's world acepting that this man is in fact their son, father, and ex-husband. In a way, it sorta plays into similar themes of the show's earliest episodes where characters like Curtis and Lorna felt threatened by Jack because he was adopted, and, in their eyes, an outsider. In a grand sense, it is dramatically rich scenario, but it quickly devolves into the Maine mystery involving a bullseye, a corrupt local deputy, and hypnotic mind control.

The Rusty story is equally clunky involving ties across the canvas to Warren (the Nick DInatos role) and Jenny as well as Aja. None of it works well for me because it feels so out of place, but where it doessucceed is towards the end when Rusty attempts to gaslight his daughter-in-law Liza in order to break up Liza and Travis' marriage. Rusty emotionally manipulates everyone involved and Liza is smart enough to see through his act as well as smart enough not to call him out until she has enough evidence to prove Rusty is guilty without a doubt.

The period where Randolph Mantooth is just Clay seems fine enough, but so little of 1986-1987 seems strong, though there is always potential.

I actually don't hate Curtis / Dinahlee / Clay, though I feel it would have been stronger with a different actor in the Curtis role, more involvement from Ava who had connections to all parties involved, and a bitter Trisha around to cluck about it. I also enjoyed Curtis / Dinahlee / Trucker, but didn't love how we had to see the deconstruction of Curtis in order for that to happen. I do think it would have eventually been a Stacey / Curtis / Dinahlee / Trucker quad and I would have enjoyed that.

James Carroll would have worked well as Curtis. I think Ava / Curtis (James Carroll) would have had more legs than Ava / Leo did prior to Shana's arrival in the story.

2 hours ago, EricMontreal22 said:

1You're right of course--the earlier dates for the various writers and even EPs were often a bit off (which is true for a lot of the soap wiki pages) but still it seems weird for someone to edit them and get rid of the dates.

Am I completely misremembering that part of the issue between Haidee Granger and Addie Walsh was about how the Cooper Alden sexual abuse story was changed? The Loving blog says he was created by Walsh and just says this in his profile "In fact, he has difficulty becoming physically intimate with anyone because of an incident during his childhood involving his former nanny, Selena, which is at first implied to be rape of Cooper by Selena but is later rewritten as Cooper touching Selena’s breast and being caught in her bed by his parents." https://lovingsoapopera.wordpress.com/2021/05/05/character-profile-cooper-alden/

Over the past week I've been rewatching the 1993 (and now 1994) Loving playlists on YT which I hadn't really revisited except random episodes since seeing when they aired... Certainly it's interesting to see when Agnes Nixon takes over just how she starts to introduce (and sometimes change existing characters, stories) to some tropes we associate with her (like pretty much immediately giving Steffi an awful mother as soon as Nixon's name shows up in the credits.)

I was looking at the Ryan's Hope wiki page to see when Joe Hardy left that show, and those dates were also removed by the same poster.

I don't think we have much for definitive facts regarding Addie Walsh and Haidee Granger. Years ago, the Haidee Granger wiki page stated Walsh left the show in an argument with Granger leaving Granger to ghost write the show. A summer 1992 SOD article has Paul Anthony Stewart lamenting that the show has no headwriter that summer. The Cooper sexual abuse story has been more conjecture on my part. In July 1992, there seems to be a major shift across the canvas including the Cooper / Selina story. After spending weeks alluding to Cooper experiencing abuse, it was stated onscreen that Cooper instigated the encounter and we were left to assume this was accurate.

In September 1994, within 2 months of Laurie McCarthy and Addie Walsh taking over, there is a very well done scene between Steffi and Cooper in the Alden barn where Cooper revisits the Selina story, and Steffi outright asks if he was abused and Cooper says he was. It felt very significant to the characters rather than the story as it was righting a wrong.

Nixon's period in the 1990s is definitely complex in terms of story and characters as well as some of the significant shifts. Guza and Taggart's initial months had been very compelling, but starts to unravel by the summer. In some ways, the Tess / Curtis / Buck setup seems reminscent to the story involving Alex and Clay with two men involved in war being involved in a situation involving someone being duped. I didn't hate it by the time Tess / Clay briefly become a thing, but it isn't a super rich story. In addition, I found some of the custody stuff involving Tyler a bit tedious. While I loved the Shana / Leo story involving the loan and the baby, the Ava / Jeremy off shoot was odd. It sorta worked, but it never would have worked long term. I don't know what the long-term plan for Angie and Frankie was, but Frankie was more compelling under Taggart / Guza than under Nixon, in my opinion. Nixon makes some smart story shifts (Tess and Steffi thrive under Nixon), but I also think she made some very foolish moves (I don't like Nixon's watered down Shana / Leo story nor Ally and Casey's lack of story).