Loving/The City Discussion Thread

[dc11786]

Marland doesn't seem to get the Bristows. They definitely were more in flavor with what Nixon would cook up. I don't think Marland nixed the impotence storyline; I suspect that was ABC. I could be wrong though. Nixon's original intentions outlined in the bible seemy less hokey than the type of characters she typically would write like Opal Gardner. 

What I outlined is from Nixon's original bible. A lot of the more interesting elements never made it on screen and that's why I suspect there was network interference. Lorna's interracial marriage. Billy's impotence. I think Nixon suspected there would be interference because the Lily Slater storyline is presented in a way that if ABC wasn't comfortable with sexual incest that emotional incest could lead to similar results. I imagine that concessions made have had to be made and Nixon choose the incest angle because it was a story she may have intended for Palmer and Nina, but was never allowed to tell. The incest story gets a significant amount of space in the bible including research on the subject. 

Marland's biggest influence on Corinth that went against the grain of Nixon's view was the corporate landscape. All of the Alden Enterprises wheeling and dealing is slowly dropped over the course of about six to eight months. Similarly, the corporate element of Shana and Leo is dropped in late 1993 when Nixon takes over from Guza/Taggart. 

[Contessa Donatella]

Saw a pic today. 

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[Soaplovers]

Considering everything that has gone over the last several years with colleges (Lori Loughlin scandal, affirmative action being ruled as a no no by the supreme court, now tackling legacy admissions at Harvard).... a soap set in a college town that focuses on students, family that founded the college, alumni, townies, etc would totally be a relevant soap opera.

It's just that Nixon was again ahead of the curve and it's a shame her ideas were diluted by the network and to a lesser extent Marland (who eventually became like a Thomas Kinkaide painting by the time he worked on ATWT).

[antmunoz]

I’m friends with Eden Atwood (Staige Prince) and sometimes we chat about her time on LOVING. 

I can’t repeat ALOT of our conversations, but she did she that she QUIT (was not let go) after 8 months, and that she was later asked to return (which she never knew about because her agents did not inform at the time, as they felt it wasn’t best for her).  It seems the show wanted to revisit the character. 
 

As she went on to be an acclaimed yet overlooked (compared to say, Diana Krall later) jazz singer, I asked her if she ever sang on the show, as I couldn’t remember. She said she vaguely remembers singing a standard (AS TIME GOES BY, maybe) at a Halloween or Masquerade Ball wearing a BIG hat!

Can anyone confirm that?  Sounds like a hoot  

 

[j swift]

@antmunoz Thank you for the recommendation.  I went to listen to her on YT and I adore her tone and her phrasing, so lovely.

 

[dc11786]

There was a masquerade ball in October, 1992, at the time of the crossover with "All My Children." I struggle watching 1992, but I'll try to see if I can find that. 

I feel for Atwood as she wasn't really given a fair shake. The college revamp is hailed as a success because of the eventual quad of Ally / Cooper / Steffi / Casey, but the early stages had a lot of growing pains. Both Atwood and Roger Howarth played fairly underdeveloped characters and even the core players in the story (Ally / Cooper) went through a bunch of shifts in characterization throughout 1992. It would have been very hard to find the place for the supporting players when they could barely figure out what to do with the charactes tied to the canvas in bigger ways. 

Atwood may have quit in November, 1992, but the character wasn't on contract beyond the initial 13-week contract cycle. After the Casablanca Dance, Howarth's Kent is shipped back to Michigan after Cooper planted the drugs on Kent that Kent had planted on him. Without Kent, Staige was more aimless and she was released from her contract, according to the credits. She appeared on a recurring basis for a bit and did receive an on-air write off so it doesn't surprise me that Atwood left the role. Towards the end of her run, I think they were trying to develop a romance between mellowing rich bitch Staige and Trucker's nerdy assistant at the garage Arthur.  

In December, 1992, Cooper starts sleeping with Mia, a co-ed at Alden U who has dark hair and is sorta bitchy. I think this was mostly likely when they planned on bringing Staige back. Guza/Taggart took over a month later and immediately introduced Steffi into the story and Steffi, in many ways, was a more succesful version of Staige. Like Staige, Steffi's family was once rich and had lost their money; this was the reason that Staige left Corinth as her family could no longer afford tuition. Also, Steffi was involved with Arthur except Steffi was encouraging Arthur to pursue a very married Trisha McKenzie. Furthermore, it seems that Taggart and Guza came in and kept the entire cast from what I recall. Even Armand Rosario who had almost no story was retained on contract so I could see Staige being utilized  based on this pattern.

I can't see the show wanting to bring her back beyond that point because Staige was a prototype for the more developed Steffi Brewster. It would have been unnecessary given Staige's limited time and connection to the canvas. 

[dc11786]

I think the college campus was an interesting location, but Nixon never intended it to be a big thing. She specifically states in the bible that she doesn't plan on focusing on stories set on the campus and that it was merely a backdrop. She basically stays true to this mantra when she returns to helm the writing staff in September, 1993, and pretty swiftly has Casey and Steffi drop out of college to pursue careers and has Cooper contemplate leaving in January, 1994. She also dropped, without any resolution as I recall, the story with Ava Rescott going back to school and taking one of Jeremy's courses. Whether or not Marland wanted to utilize the campus more is unknown, but, based on the scripts I have for "A New Day in Eden," it seems unlikely. Marland saw a college town as reason to have a lot of young people around, which logistically makes sense. 

Even in 1983, they could have utilized the college better. I think there was a way of telling the AIDS storyline in a meaningful way by developing a relationship between Noreen and the doctor in charge of the research, while the doctor faces opposition from the AU's conservative board of trustees who don't want their contributions used to fund research for something they deem a gay issue. Of course, I think the fight would be more meaningful if Doug Donovan was a closet case who felt compelled to out himself in a speech similar to Mike's Fourth of July monologue where Doug can no longer remain silent about the issues facing a community he has fought hard to remain on the fringe of. Of course, I'd also suggest that Curtis Alden, the product of Clay and Gwyn's open marriage and laizee faire parenting, would fear that he would have been exposed to the virus during his days as a European playboy when Curtis' "buddy" comes to town to admit that he is dying of the disease and Curtis should get tested. Of course, Isabelle would let Curtis' friend stay with them while he died after verbally attacking Cabot for manipulating the board into trying to cut the funding reminding Isabelle of her own brother who ended his life because of the shame he felt about his feeling for other men. I'm not sure ABC daytime (and more than likely not their audience) would be able to handle that story in 1983-1984. 

I prefer what Marland was able to accomplish in his final six months or so with the show. The last big revamp in December, 1984, really put the show in a good position. Trisha and Steve's story with Cece Thompson seems to be a variation on Marland's "Guiding Light" tales about teenage girls wanting older guys with the underage vixen seducing the older guy and him landing in prison for it. Though, I don't think Steve actually lands in prison until Nixon takes over again so maybe it wasn't as much Marland. I think Lorna and Linc were a good pairing. I thought Dane as Ava's silent benefactor in her scheme to land Jack was interesting. Ava's baby switch provided a bit of story. I think Dane and Ann's marriage was a great source of conflict for the Aldens. I think the show was in a decent place when Marland left, but it was his type of canvas, not Nixon's. 

With all that said, Nixon should have been the headwriter in year one to establish the tone, the characters, and the types of stories she wanted to tell. The bible left a lot of characters significantly underdeveloped which is why characters like Rita Mae, who was developed, end up falling by the wayside. Ann Forbes basically assumes the role of several characters by taking up with Mike Donovan and also developing a drinking problem (which was originally slated for Gwyneth when she arrived in Year 2 with Clay). There is almost nothing about Ann in the bible as she is merely a complication to Merrill and Roger's happiness, but even Roger and Merrill were never intended to be end game. Roger was suppose to just be one of the many unavailable men that Merrill would find herself drawn to because she was afraid of suffering her mother's fate of dying in childbirth. 

[Sapounopera]

I had no idea there is info about a LOVING bible. Can you share more things about it, or can we read it somewhere?

So Clay and Gwyneth were part of the show's original concept? I thought that they were brought so soon because Roger and Ann didn't work out. Shocked to read about Merrill. I always thought that she was the show's heroine at first and the idea of her cheating on her nice boyfriend while ruining another woman's happiness...

[dc11786]

@Sapounopera There are probably more detailed responses in this thread from around 2019/2020 when @EricMontreal22 first discovered the bible. Actually, you commented on some of them I believe. It's been a while, but I will share what I recall. 

The story was originally set in a town called Carthage. The bible is written with three sections in mind: (1) the Jack & Lily romance with the Slater family secrets, (2) the affair between Roger and Merrill, and (3) Mike's struggles to cope with the events that occured in Vietnam. There is a character list towards the beginning that includes Jake Vochek (the father of Merrill, Noreen, and Jim as well as Patrick Donovan's army buddy/childhood friend) and Jeff Turner (the son of psychiatrist Dr. Ron Turner and Jack Forbes' best friend). Gwyneth and Clayton Alden are included in the list with a note that they would appear in Year 2. The bible itself covers story starting with the first daytime episode and going through the cliffhanger before the August, 1984, Olympics. 

The Slater family section spent a significant amount of time describing the backstory of Garth and June's marriage including the fact that Garth had knocked June up and had to marry her, only for her to miscarry the child. June later gave birth to a stillborn son after Lily I believe which led to severe depression and alcoholism. Garth had felt that June had stunted his career advancement. There was also a significant amount of space devoted to research on incest that Nixon had done. The research section reads like a pitch to sell the incest story, but also to provide ways to tell the story without a sexual aspect if necessary. Nixon outlines how incest can just be an inappropriate relationship between a parent and a child, which to me suggests that this research may have been done when she was planning the initial Nina and Palmer Cortlandt story. 

Jack and Lily's romance was slightly different than what played out onscreen. Lily's multiple personalities were not a story element in the bible, which meant that there was no romance between Lily and Curtis. Jack and Lily were to go on the run for a significant amount of time and build a life together in their new location. They did a much more abbreviated version of this with Jack and Lily running off together shortly before Garth's murder. 

Jack was still adopted. His mother was still a friend of Ann's from college, but there was no reference to who Jack's father was. There was animosity between Lorna and Jack as Lorna felt Jack was an outsider. Lorna was originally set to become involved with Jeff Turner in an interracial story that was just going to be about two young people falling in love without consideration of race. There was also a hint that Lorna would one day be drawn to Doug Donovan, but this was never completely sketched out. Stacey is mentioned as Lily's friend and pseudo romantic rival. There is a suggestion that Stacey might be manipulative in trying to gain Jack for herself, but that she would probably end up with Curtis for a bit as well. Stacey wasn't mentioned much, but I believe that she and Lily were suppose to be recent high school graduates. 

When Jack went on trial, June was going to go into a catatonic state of some sort and when she was at a sanitarium, Merrill Vochek would visit her. On the Friday before the Olympics, June was suppose to remember what happened the night of Garth's murder leaving the audience waiting until the Olympics were over in order to stay tuned. 

In the second major story, there was a very vague outline of what the story between Roger and Merrill was suppose to be about. The description of their emotional state was the main thrust and their motivations for the affair. Merrill was suppose to be someone who was deeply disturbed by her mother's untimely death during childbirth with her or another baby that didn't live; I seem to recall there being a bizarre number of miscarriages mentioned in the bible. Anyway, due to this, Merrill feared chidbirth. She was more career driven than romance driven. The implication, as I recall, was that she and Doug had been together a long time and that was what was expected of them, where as her relationship with Roger was more about lust. Merrill and Roger were not endgame. Roger was suppose to be a step in her romantic journey. Doug was deeply underdeveloped. All I recall is that there was a reference to a scene that was going to occur in the classroom where Doug basically admitted how joyful he was because he was getting married. Of course, he wouldn't get married. Ann was mentioned on a handful of occassions, and nothing to give a sense she was anything other than an obstacle in Merrill and Roger's romance. In the end, though, the larger obstacle would have been Merrill's resistance to commit to any man. Jim is presented as a moral compass for Merrill which she may or may not listen to. Roger's political motivations are discussed. Again, nothing to suggest any major plot movement, which is why I think Nixon needed to write the first year. I imagine it was only underdeveloped on paper and not in her own head, but maybe I'm being too generous. 

Lorna was also a thorn in Merrill and Roger's romance, which I think played out a little bit on screen, but not as much as I felt was written about in the bible. 

In the final story, Mike's Vietnam flashbacks were discussed. The 4th of July Speech was discussed, but I think in one of the few mentions in the bible, Jake Vochek was the one to present the award to his best friend's son. Mike refused to see Dr. Turner, a fellow Vietnam vet, and ended up involved in the police force where he was paired with an African American partner, who's name I don't recall, who would have also been a Vietnam vet. This partner on the force never materialized onscreen. Instead, the character may have been the basis for Mike's buddy Gage, who died in Vietnam and haunted Mike in the his memories. Similarly, Jeff Turner, Lorna's beau and Jack's buddy, became Tony Perrilli. 

Rita Mae was suppose to befriend Noreen and start sleeping with Mike. She was also going to carry on bit with Curtis Alden. There was a bit of a triangle among the three of them which escalated into a violent confrontation and would later be fueled by Patrick Donovan's death. Patrick was suppose to chase down the local campus drug dealers and die of a heart attack. This was going to haunt Mike as he was supposed to be on duty that night, but wasn't (he may have even been carrying on with Rita Mae). Billy was sort of a non-figure as he was impotent and refused to acknowledge the issue, from what I remember.  

[Sapounopera]

Thank you so much for your detailed answer. I didn't remember any of this. Too bad that they gave up on their original ideas so soon. 

[dc11786]

I think the dropping of ideas is probably the result of a couple things. Certain story elements most likely were nixed by the network (the interracial romance involving a black man and a woman as well as the impotency plot). I imagine Jake Vochek was dropped because the network didn't want that many older characters, while I wonder if one of the reasons Patrick Donovan didn't kick the bucket in 1983/1984 was because they had killed off three other fathers in that time period (Johnny Forbes / Garth Slater / Roger Forbes). 

Part of the issue with the Bristows was that a bulk of their story was determined by Billy's impotence. This would have made Rita Mae's sexual pursuits a little more understanding to some people as it wasn't that Billy wouldn't satsify her, he couldn't. Instead, Rita Mae was just a neglected housewife moving from mild flirtations with Fr. Jim to Curtis to Doug. Furthermore, the shifting from Rita Mae to Ann gave the writers more story to play in the long run with Mike. Ann had more connections on the canvas so the action had more repercussions. 

Merrill and Roger are interesting as I initially thought the story ended fairly early when Roger returns to Ann and takes a post in Washington before the Garth Slater murder trial. Then, I realized they were continuing the story a bit with Merrill becoming involved with Warren Hodges, the district attorney who was a political rival of Roger's. The decision to drop Merrill seems to come at a time where they've positioned Shana to assume a lot of Merrill's place on the canvas. Shana is an attempt at a similar character, but without trying to pigeonhole her into the role of a heroine. Shana was more open in showing her hurt which I think helped. With that said, I think a Merrill/Shana friendship would have been delightful especially if Shana ended up using information she gathered about Merrill and Roger's relationship to hurt the Aldens. 

I'm curious where they would have gone with Lily and Jack. The bible ends with the trial which was suppose to be in the summer of 1984, wrapping up in August after the Olympics. There's suggestions that Stacey might become a threat to their relationship. A lot of space in the bible is spent on June, but I don't see where Nixon would have wanted to take her after the trial. 

[Kane]

It's funny you should mention that because I was looking over Marland's era not too long ago and it occurred to me that throughout 1984 he ushers in characters that seem like they function as his own spin on some of the characters he was handed.

You mentioned Shana and Merrill, who I think have a lot in common and, as you say, Shana takes Merrill's place on canvas in certain respects.

Dane literally takes Roger's place in several respects (he's Jack's father, becomes the owner of Forbes Construction, and Ann's husband).

Kate comes in and eventually supplants Rose as the salt of the earth, working class matriarch.

Trisha fills the void left by Lily as the innocent ingenue, and Garth's characteristics get split between Harry and Gwyneth, with Harry inheriting the violent tendencies, and Gwyneth inheriting the unhealthy obsession with her daughter's love life and the willingness to go full tilt against a rival who isn't even engaging, let alone retaliating (for Garth that's Roger, for Gwyneth it's Ann).

Ava comes on the scene right around the time that Lorna's short marriage to Tony ends, which is when Lorna transitions from being a character who makes things happen to being a character to whom things happen (the victim of the plots of Jonathan twice, Rebecca, and Jane). Ava takes over as the resident pot stirring schemer and Lorna gradually starts to become more of a heroine.

Of course, having said all of that, I've never read the show bible, so for all I know some or all of these things were planned from the beginning by Nixon.

[dc11786]

I definitely think there are certain elements of the original show that are tweaked or reused. To me, Dane comes off as more of a replacement for Garth, a foe for Jack, an enemy for the Alden family, and someone driven by ambition. Dane is not directly mentioned in the bible, but it is clear that Jack was adopted and there is a note that his parents died in a car accident. Jack is a variation on Phil Brent. In an early AMC bible, Phil ends up killing Nick and going on the run like Lily and Jack were suppose to. Dane seems to be a bit of a variation on that. I truly believe Roger Forbes would have returned some point down the line. I also suspect that Stephanie Smith was supposed to be a recast Merrill Vochek. 

Kate and Rose are similar types. I think Kate was going to be a slightly different variation on the Ada / Mona type. The Erica / Rachel type were always hurt by the abandonment by their fathers. Charles Rescott was dead, which, in itself, is a variation on the abandonment issue. I do think there might be more to it though. I had heard that there were plans once to reveal Ava (when played by Roya Megnot) was biracial, the product of an affair between Kate and an African American man. This would have been an interesting take on the abandoning by the father story. In some ways, Ava actually replaces Stacey, who was going to be a bit more cunning in trying to keep Jack and Lily apart. 

I had never considered a Gwyneth/Garth connection. Later on, Gwyneth ends up sleeping with a bunch of Trisha's men so there is a different sort of incest going on there. Gwyneth and Harry, at different points, have significantly unhealthy obsessions with their children's sexual habits. I don't know how Harry made it past his initial few months after kidnapping and nearly raping Shana and genuinely being a terrible human being. 

I think Lorna remains a complicated character until Marland leaves. Lorna alligns herself with Dane early in 1985 when Lorna sells some of her shares to Dane, but, now that I think about it, Linc and Dane are in cahoots so part of Lorna's situation is less about her own agency. I do think she slowly becomes more snobbish rather than cunning and actively manipulative. 

[Franko]

At this point in 1995, Loving had less than 70 episodes left. With thanks as always to @Kane, let's check in on Frankie, Charles and Angie's episode counts!

Frankie -- 75 confirmed episodes in 1993-94; 54 confirmed to date in 1995

Charles -- 106 confirmed episodes in 1993-94; 80 confirmed to date in 1995

Angie -- 125 confirmed episodes in 1993-94; 77 confirmed to date in 1995

[Sapounopera]

I always saw Marland's Stacey as Loving's Hilary Bauer. She was never meant to be that important. Unless they did  a story where Lily has to marry a paralyzed Curtis and Jack gets married to her. Something like that.  

Jack Forbes the adopted heir, shared many story similarities with Phillip Spaulding. Lily was his Beth Raines and both incest stories took place in 1983.

One of the problems with Merrill was that she was not a very interesting character. She was cheating on a nice guy, but we were supposed to root for her. Why? She was ruining another woman's family. Different writing or casting, might have made her work. Susan Keith might have made a better Merrill. 

I didn't like how the Forbes family was replaced by Clay's. Ann's alcoholism story didn't need Dane, it could be done with Roger. Shannon Eubanks was great as regal Ann, Callan White was a brand new person. Same goes for the Donovan brothers recasts. 

Nada Rowland would have been a great Rose with Ava being a Donovan cousin. 

I hated Lorna as a tortured heroine. They even gave her a spoiled stepdaughter after two or three years. 

Edy Lester had potential with Doug, but they made things too dark too soon.