Loving/The City Discussion Thread

[j swift]

 

An amusing (but unfounded) note about the recasting of Ava

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BTW - speaking of Ava recasts, a small piece of gossip that may have been forgotten, Lisa Peluso and Perry Stephens dated briefly according to the soap magazines.

Edited July 17, 2023 by j swift

[DRW50]

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This episode was already uploaded, but this upload includes commercials.

Edited July 17, 2023 by DRW50

[dc11786]

Eras I think were strong:

The Marland Years (June 1983-May 1985, but in particularly December 1984-February 1986): Mostly as @Sapounopera describes, down to earth soap. The constant turnover of those early years is not fun. I think the structure that started to tighten in November/December 1984 with the arrival of Steve and Trisha, Ava's pregnancy becoming a bigger story, Dane and Ann marrying, and the show dropping the Doug/Lotty story. I think Ava's pregnancy lie, Dane's takeover of Alden Enterprises, Tony and Rita Mae's older woman/younger man romance, Lorna's romance with Linc (pre-Zona and Rebekah), and Trisha and Steve's young love affair played very nicely. After Marland, it sort of teeters on until about early 1986 when Dane leaves, Stacey and Jack marry, and Zona ends up dead with Lorna accused of murder. 

The Jacqueline Babbin Year (late 1990-January 1992): While not purely the time that Babbin was EP, I think what she set in motion in her year came into fruition fairly well by the end of her tenure and through the time Fran Sears worked with Mary Ryan Munisteri. The reconstructuring of the Alden family in spring of 1991 opened up the canvas to new spaces. Reestablishing Patrick and Rose Donovan. Building up the supporting cast. Telling strong umbrella stories like Abril's pregnancy and the Carly/Paul/Ava triangle were very effective. I think the idea of Shana becoming more gray again was appealing (executed poorly) as was the attempt to reintroduce the college campus through the adults. Matt and Ally's sweet romance complicated by the the sexual abuse that Matt's stepfather committed as well as Matt's drug problems that resulted from that were strong material. I think Trucker's affair with Dinahlee was intriguing, but it developed sides of Trisha and Trucker that the audience were uncomfortable without all the necessary nuisance or clearly grounding the motivation in the characters recent tragic loss of two of their children (Benjamin and Tommy).  

The Guza and Taggert Era (January 1993-September 1993): Guza and Taggert provided a much more layered "Loving" with deeper characterization and stronger plots than had been going on for a while. I don't think the younger set would have taken off if they hadn't introduced Amelia Heinle as Steffi Brewster allowing Ally to transition into a more heroine role. Shana and Leo's romance offered comedy, social issues, and business intrigue. Casey and Ally became a stronger rooting couple. Early Buck and Stacey was a lot of light hearted fun and a rivalry between Stacey and Gwyn was new and interesting. There were weaker plots (whatever was happening with Tess/Buck/Curtis) but it was mostly strong.

The Return of Nixon (September 1993-August 1994): Agnes Nixon returned in September 1993 and took the show in a very different direction than Guza and Taggert. Some things worked better, some did not. Shana and Leo's story became narrower and less interesting (Patti's potential developmental delays were the only source of conflict) to the point it was easy to write out Shana and Leo in June 1994. Bringing in Dante Partou gave the Kuwait story some weight and pivoted characters in much more sustainable directions. Nixon made Tess likeable and nasty at the same time. Steffi's eating disorder was well done. Janie Sinclaire had the potential to be the next Erica Kane type. Curtis/Dinahlee/Trucker was fun. The return of Cabot was intriguing. Nixon sets up the revelation that Kate Rescott's father created the formula for the soap that was the basis of the Alden family fortune. It had the potential to be "Loving's" answer to the BeLieF formula on "The Bold and the Beautiful." Pushing Ava into the seat of the head of the Alden empire had the potential to impact the canvas in new and interesting ways for years. The Stacey/Curtis and Trucker/Dinahlee pairings were ripe for ripping apart once Trisha and/or Jack returned from the dead. Casey and Ally had little story and were set to be the next Shana and Leo if Walsh and McCarthy hadn't developed Casey's psychological issues and his coping through drugs.  

[1974mdp]

This is awesome! Thanks for the great breakdown!

[Contessa Donatella]

Do you, or does anyone here, know what happened between Agnes Nixon & Douglas Marland, that provoked him to leave & her to have his name removed as co-creator?

[dc11786]

Marland created "Loving" the way Nixon created "Search for Tomorrow." They were each the first headwriter. Nixon wrote the "Loving" bible. I suspect Dan Wakefield's original creator credit was he was going to be the show's first headwriter. Why Marland's credit was removed I don't know. Given Marland's penchant for spending money, I could definitely see him being bought out of the credit, but truthfully, she might just have removed it. 

[Contessa Donatella]

Thanks for your reply. I've talked to someone who says they were a friend of Marland's at the time who says he was warned not to work on the project because he & Nixon were great friends & that if anything happened, he would lose the friendship. That person thinks that is indeed what happened. Me, I don't know if I believe them. Likely will never know. I was thinking about this & it's just common sense. Friends, enter into a business venure & it might bust up the friendship. Then I ws thinking about Marland's pattern. Left GH angry over a principle abt story. Left GL angry over a pirnciple abt story. Odds are LOVING was similar. 

Edited July 19, 2023 by Donna L. Bridges
just had a thought

[Kane]

I'm very fond of the short Guza/Taggart run. There are some big flaws, but I thought they struck a great balance between heavy and lighter material and I find those episodes very rewatchable. It sort of unravels at the end, with a sense that they're throwing anything and everything against the wall and seeing what sticks, but even then I find the stories they're laying the groundwork for (a Trucker/Angie relationship, a Dinah Lee/Alex/Ava/Jeremy quad, a Clay/Gwyneth/Buck/Stacey quad) intriguing.

I'm mixed on Agnes Nixon's 93-94 run. I think the Dante Partou storyline is great umbrella story that draws the canvas together after the chaotic ending of Guza/Taggart's run, the Deborah/Clay/Steffi/Cooper story is one of my favorite Loving stories ever, and I think that Steffi's bulimia story is really well done in that instead of wrapping it up in a couple of months with a nice, social issues bow, it instead ebbs and flows through Steffi's other stories throughout the year and into the next.

On the other hand, the show feels less balanced during her run than it did during Guza/Taggart's because it tends to focus intensely on one story for a few weeks while characters who aren't part of that story just disappear for lengthy periods of time; and I dislike how several of the characters are approached. Egypt is brought back just to be destroyed, which was a waste (instead of ending Ava and Jeremy's relationship within a month of Alex's return, I think it would have been better to keep that relationship going until Egypt's return, see what kind of chemistry Linda Cook and Jean LeClerc had, and turn it into an Egypt/Alex/Ava/Jeremy quad with Ava and Alex ending up together and Egypt and Jeremy ending up together). Stacey is treated as though she's nothing outside of Buck and just languishes on the sidelines for months while he has a series of other stories. Dinah Lee becomes so reduced as a character that her relationship with Trucker becomes her entire personality. I hate that Curtis becomes the show's whipping boy, and I hate that the show gives up on Shana, who barely appears during her last six months on the show.

I'd really like to see more of Marland's years and more of the Taggart/King years.

[dc11786]

I find it very interesting that Guza/Taggert and Nixon run back to back because they each have their strengths, and they don't necessarily overlap. With Guza/Taggert, I love Shana/Leo/Ava, but elements of the story are very unappealing. Ava's fanatasies annoy me, to be honest. I also think they were too quick to move Ava out of that orbit, but I think that they might have looped her back in down the road had Guza and Taggert stayed. I find most of the Buck/Tess/Curtis stories incredibly unappealing. Buck's entrance was intriguing, the Curtis/Dinahlee/Clay triangle had potential, and Tess as a scheming AE employee. Those moments were just weighed down by the clunky backstory in Kuwait. I also don't remember Dinahlee having much agency other than dealing with Curtis, which seems on par with where Walsh left her and where Nixon continues to go. 

Guza and Taggert though had some very strong sexual material which I thought was well done. I think the romp between Cooper and Steffi in the window display was pretty enjoyable. I remember some rather intense moments between Dinahlee and Patrick Johnson's Curtis. The bubble bath, which I believe was posted, where Gwyn joined Buck was also good. There was also a stronger generational feel. I liked that Louie's prostate cancer led to sexual issues and that Louie and Kate got the chance to face them. 

There balance was different than Nixon's. More story was told at once, but often at warp neck speed. Ava/Leo/Shana basically is told in under six months which is really wild to think about. Ally and Cooper's marriage ends super quick, even if that was the characters intentions, the writers should have dragged that out. Nixon did focus on stories in bursts and the cast wasn't balanced. She also had a huge cast that she probably should have trimmed down. 

Steffi's journey under Nixon is just an amazing story. I know Amelia Heinle has gone in a different direcction in her acting, but I'm shocked to hear how people don't like her on Y&R given her strong run on "Loving." I like how the show did maintain ties between Steffi and Casey, which is a relationship I really enjoyed even though I don't think I would have wanted them as end game. 

I hadn't thought about Nixon's approach to Stacey. She definitely is a passive and reactive character rather than being in control of her own story. I wish we saw more of the domestic issues between Stacey and J.J. before jumping into Buck and J.J. I appreciate that towards the end we saw a little more of Stacey's energy when she punched (I think she punched him) Curtis in the face for the Trisha is alive ruse. I don't have a problem with Nixon's approach to Curtis. It's not my favorite, but it isn't until the plane crash that Curtis becomes irredeemable which I think is just after Nixon leaves. Maybe it's before. I think Michael Lord's Curtis was already reverting back to a very Marcantel like Curtis with the scheming. The PTSD element was probably wrong for Curtis, but I enjoy the potential of him manipulating that while also not being able to truly be in control of it. I also may be more forgiving because Tess/Curtis/Dinahlee was such a turn off to me. I didn't care too much about Egypt in general so none of that bothered me. I thought dropping Clay/Gwyn to go Gwyn/Jeremy was stupid. 

I did enjoy reading your thoughts so thanks for posting. 

[Kane]

Christine Tudor and Dennis Parlato had chemistry for days and the dynamic they created between Gwyneth and Clay was so interesting. They were possessive of each other, but at the same time each seemed largely unbothered by the idea of the other sleeping with someone else (Gwyneth used Clay to honeytrap Tess, after all). If it weren't for the fact that this was an American soap, I'd say that they could have been used to explore a nonmonogamous relationship.

Gwyneth and Jeremy were okay, I thought. They had decent chemistry, Tudor and Jean LeClerc put a lot into selling it, and I can see from a character perspective how a relationship with Jeremy would have been a breath of fresh air for Gwyn, but that's also what made the relationship a dead end storywise. Once Clay was removed as a potential obstacle, there was no natural conflict in the relationship and the show seemed disinterested in creating new conflict for it.

[dc11786]

The way you described Gwyn and Clay is perfect. I've always assumed that this is basically how Gwyn and Clay lived when they were in Paris. Clay and Gwyn both openly carrying on with others while also maintaining some strong feelings between each other, but never able to fully commit to being only with the other person. I thought that would explain why Curtis was the way he was.  

The approach that Nixon took to the Aldens in the 1993-1994 run is a mixed bag. I think Clay and Cooper fair well. I like Curtis as this pot stirrer struggling with mental illness who would use his mental instability to keep Dinahlee at his side with neither he, nor the audience, knowing where the lie started and the illness took over. I felt like Nixon was setting up Curtis/Stacey in the final weeks of her run, which I would have been here for especially with the inevitable reutrn of Jack. 

Gwyn's journey is intriguing. Cutting the ties with Clay and working at the agency had some potential, but I don't think removing Gwyn from the Alden orbit for long was going to work. I imagine that Gwyn and Jeremy would have imploded in the fall of 1994 even if the Gilbert story hadn't played out. If Ava took control of AE, I could easily see Gwyn being pulled back into the Alden orbit trying to fight to secure her son's legacy with Jeremy siding with Ava leading to the eventual break up. 

I also suspect that the original plan for Ava's prediction regarding the death of someone in Corinth was Jeremy. 

[Franko]

It's all so Fosse/Verdon! And while I doubt it was intentional, Bob *and* Clay both died of heart attacks. (Of course, Gwen Verdon wasn't going around killing people in her circle ... that we know of.)

[DRW50]

I was looking through old commercials and saw this one with Augusta Dabney in her toughest acting role - having to talk about how buying US News and World Report is just like having Reagan talk to her.

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Edited July 23, 2023 by DRW50

[dc11786]

I would like to know how Augusta Dabney felt playing Isabelle when she returned in 1994. Both she and the writers tried to find a common ground between the comforting matriarch she originally played and the meddling manipulator that had developed in her absence. I felt a little bad watching Clay being cruel to Dabney's Isabelle over the Tim Sullivan stuff because she hadn't gotten to play any of that story. 

I'd also have loved to seen what would have happened with the character if Meg Mundy had stayed with the show. 

[Sapounopera]

I saw Dabney as a rich Alice Horton.

Celeste Holm was more like Stephanie Forrester and Patricia Barry more like Phoebe Wallingford from the episodes I have seen online.

Judging from her Mona Croft, Mundy would have been amazing with a strong presence.