Ya know, I hated Hilgley's tenure and while the show isn't profusely bleeding, the ineptitude is surely putting me to sleep. I don't know who I resent more... hmnnn... I resent Carlivati more because after eighteen years... after supposedly knowing the history of these characters...after supposedly loving the show...he was suppose to be better than Higley, Malone, and Tomlin combined.

And THIS is precisely the problem with everyone (not singling you out, Money... the 'general' everyone) getting on their knees and thanking the soap gods for a writer who worked there before s/he even starts. We've seen time and time again that some people who don't knows soaps at all can be great at one show (Hogan's first year at ATWT) and not so great at others (Hogan at Days), and that established soap writers can live up to their names (Claire Labine at GH) and other times fall flat (Claire Labine at OLTL). Everyone deserves a chance to THRIVE or STUMBLE in their first year, and putting the label on someone that they're going to be the best or the worst before they even start can be really dangerous. Personally, I think RC is strong, and given enough time, will find his footing. But everyone's so quick to say whether someone's an A+++++ or an F------- there's no room for any growth.

Sorry, Money, but I think we've had this discussion before and I'm afraid I continue to fail to see how the lack of airtime for master thespian Tobias Truvillion is a problem.

Melaswen was a good idea. It's just the execution and conclusion were mishandled. If Jim was able to tell the story his way, it would've been better.

I. HAVE. NO. WORDS.

and we ALL know thats a first.

Stories like that take a lot of bravery to tell, not just creative bravery but managerial bravery and as we've seen with Luke/Noah, the suits running things cave to the tiniest bit of pressure. Imagine trying to pull off a Marty Saybrooke gang-rape story today. You'd have the North-American Interfraternity Conference pissed off about the portrayal of frat boys as rapists, every women's organization on earth angry about "Marty the Party Girl" and her misidentification of Kevin as one of her rapists. Various churches commenting on Andrew's role, etc... Blah, blah, blah.

OLTL's Todd/Starr thing could have shaped up to be an examination of Todd's psychological issues but that would mean putting Trevor St. John front and center in a non-romantic story. It would also mean examining the Todd's ENTIRE history which would mean looking at his previous incarnations when he was played by another actor and written by other writers. Frons would rather set himself on fire than let any of those things happen.

I guess what I'm saying is that I agree with you about the need for a really amazing story but there's so many obstacles standing in the way of letting a story like that ever happen. Soaps can't even see two guys kissing without it turning into the culture wars. If soaps can't come into the present, they'll disappear into the past. And rightly so.

I think the reason people were willing to respond to Andrew, Marty, etc then and are sometimes more reluctant to respond to Gigi, Jared, Charlie now - aside from the fact that, obviously, Bob Krimmer and Susan Haskell were brilliant actors - is because of the atmosphere of daytime today. Back then people hadn't been fucked with for years with bad stories, overpropped pets, newbies, etc. In the intervening years, fans have been jerked around, are often downtrodden and angry, waiting to see how the new character will cost someone else they love a place on the canvas. Any new character out of the gate now has to fight to make it a mile with any fan goodwill - and that's even if, like the new characters I mentioned (at least IMO), they have good actors in the roles.

I think we often have a right to be angry nowadays, but I think sometimes we're too trigger-happy. I think Carlivati's newbies have been introduced almost perfectly, and maybe with less of a heavy hand than some of Malone's introductions - but that was 1991-1996. This is 2008. People change, the atmosphere has changed.

As for Todd, the question is how many times can you tell the same story. Almost all his storylines feature him as an antagonist, with romance as a sidestory. I think that's totally appropriate for his nasty character, and that he should always be the antihero and not the Romeo, but Todd has revisited the rape over and over and over. I thought his material last week was brilliant, and did unveil another facet of his neuroses, but there's only so many places that can go that Todd hasn't gone to before. He can be a continuing antihero, but not every story should be about his psychosexual hang-ups. He's quite frankly starting to run out of them.

two of the best post's ever.

I don't remember if there are any teens in Springfield or not. Coop's not a teenager and neither is Lizzie. I don't pay any attention to Ashlee Wolfe, so her age is a mystery to me I guess. Wait, you've got two teens! Rafe and Daisy.

What time is GL on in most places? because here is in the timeslot that pass was in, and i assume when PASS went off the air and they started watching GL.

Besides bill/lizzie has that kinda romance that can draw people oin, IMHO. and coop is hot.

DAYS is run by a corporation (Sony) and a member of the lucky sperm club (Corday)

Oh my God. If I had a signature, I would steal that sperm line in a heartbeat.

Brilliant. Just brilliant.

BRAVO!

It's interesting what people think the salvation of OLTL is.

Personally, I think BW is a great great Jessica and believe it would be a huge mistake to bring back Erin Torpey. I also think it stinks that everyone thinks the answer is bringing back Clint Ritchie or Roger Howarth or any other original actor. The show is the character, not the temps who play them for 1, 10 or whatever years. And yes, I know, you all grew up with The Virgin Jess. The actors on the show are just fine IMO. With the exception of ES, Robin Strasser and maybe RSW because of his importance to the other actors, anyone is replaceable.

Also, because of this thread, I watched the show today for the first time in a while. Everyone sit down: I enjoyed the BE thing, and I still think Jess and Nash are great. Right now it's not enough to bring me back, but it could be. When they showed that big picture of Asa, I though, you old SOB, you set this thing up before you died.

Well just to clarify my own position. I loved Erin Torpey and have absolutely no use for BW but...

I completely agree with you on disliking the constant calls to "bring back so and so." It's one thing to want the return of a recently departed actor. For instance I loved DG's Kevin and RED HOT LOBSTER LOATHE the fact that TIIC are considering bringing on a recast. But all these calls for RH or AE just strikes me as pitiful nostalgia. Like some sad old woman in blue eyeshadow, chain smoking Virginia Slim menthols at your cousin's wedding reception and telling you how hot she used to be as she knocks back G&Ts at the open bar.

I agree that anyone is replaceable but that doesn't mean everyone will watch. Heck all the actors you mentioned are getting plenty of airtime and the show's at the bottom of the ratings regardless. Like you said, you're not watching and obviously you are far from alone in that.

And THIS is precisely the problem with everyone (not singling you out, Money... the 'general' everyone) getting on their knees and thanking the soap gods for a writer who worked there before s/he even starts. We've seen time and time again that some people who don't knows soaps at all can be great at one show (Hogan's first year at ATWT) and not so great at others (Hogan at Days), and that established soap writers can live up to their names (Claire Labine at GH) and other times fall flat (Claire Labine at OLTL). Everyone deserves a chance to THRIVE or STUMBLE in their first year, and putting the label on someone that they're going to be the best or the worst before they even start can be really dangerous. Personally, I think RC is strong, and given enough time, will find his footing. But everyone's so quick to say whether someone's an A+++++ or an F------- there's no room for any growth.

That's just the thing... OLTL doesn't have the luxury of time and the show doesn't have the luxury of another year. If the ratings keep tanking it's going to end in cancellation. Even if it doesn't, been there done that. I'm sick and tired of being subjected to numerous HWs and being told "give it time" and they fail yet again. My patience has run out. RC was hailed as the savior even before I even dared to hope he would actually be a modest improvement from Higkley's crapfest. He is the one who's been at the show for eighteen years and he is the one who said he knows the history of the characters and loved the show. He should be held accountable and as a fan I shouldn't have to wait six months to a year to actually enjoy the show if he knows the characters that damn well. To me it's just a bunch of excuses and like I said, I've ran out of patience.

Sorry, Money, but I think we've had this discussion before and I'm afraid I continue to fail to see how the lack of airtime for master thespian Tobias Truvillion is a problem.

The problem isn't TT and your obsession with Evangeline and TT is annoying when no one mentioned either. The problem is OLTL's window dressing masquerading as diversity. The minority tokenism is insulting and continually having them on prop duty even more so. I don't care if you like the Vegas but I do and they deserve to drive their own storylines for a change instead of having their airtime solely contingent on support of RC's "cores". I would rather they fired Tika Sumpter than continue to use her as a token. If you cannot comprehend why viewers would actually love to see RJ finally be frontburner after all these years then I won't waste my time.

That's just the thing... OLTL doesn't have the luxury of time and the show doesn't have the luxury of another year. If the ratings keep tanking it's going to end in cancellation. Even if it doesn't, been there done that. I'm sick and tired of being subjected to numerous HWs and being told "give it time" and they fail yet again. My patience has run out. RC was hailed as the savior even before I even dared to hope he would actually be a modest improvement from Higkley's crapfest. He is the one who's been at the show for eighteen years and he is the one who said he knows the history of the characters and loved the show. He should be held accountable and as a fan I shouldn't have to wait six months to a year to actually enjoy the show if he knows the characters that damn well. To me it's just a bunch of excuses and like I said, I've ran out of patience.

I don't entirely disagree with what you're saying. But I guess I see a soap opera canvas as needing nurturing and careful long-term planning. You're right. That luxury isn't there anymore. But Rome isn't built in a day, and I do feel that if cancellation was not the dark cloud looming over EVERY soap, that a soap needs time to refocus the characters into where they need to be to secure a strong future of a show.

I guess what I'm saying is that I do see what you're saying, but (respectfully) I'm trying not to think of the Big-C, even though that might be COMPLETELY stupid of me.

The problem isn't TT and your obsession with Evangeline and TT is annoying when no one mentioned either. The problem is OLTL's window dressing masquerading as diversity. The minority tokenism is insulting and continually having them on prop duty even more so. I don't care if you like the Vegas but I do and they deserve to drive their own storylines for a change instead of having their airtime solely contingent on support of RC's "cores". I would rather they fired Tika Sumpter than continue to use her as a token. If you cannot comprehend why viewers would actually love to see RJ finally be frontburner after all these years then I won't waste my time.

If you're not the one that tried to explain to me why Vincent and Layla deserved to be frontburner because they're sooo talented, then I sincerely apologize. I would love to see TDS/RJ frontburner myself, and I simply do not find Tika Sumpter and TT remotely worthy of my attention or interest simply by virtue of the fact that they happen to be African-American (and either boring as hell or completely untalented in the case of Truvillion). I would prefer to say better black characters/actors brought on, as well as see RJ get their airtime x 100.

As for the Vegas, I like their stories now a lot, and I used to like them much more (I loved Antonio in the 90s) but I don't think you can deny that Antonio was widely despised by a great many fans from 2000 until maybe a year ago. I don't think you'll find a huge hue and cry for more frontburner time for the Vegas after that. I like Antonio/Talia a lot, and I like the rapport with the brothers, but after he tanked story after story I think Tonio's airtime is just right. The point to all this is, I think major storyline for Latino and AA characters is an essential component of the show, and there needs to be more of it, but just because Vincent, Layla and Antonio are what we have right now, that doesn't mean they're what we should use. There is almost no interest in Vincent and Layla, and we've already established the problem with Antonio (which I don't think can be disputed after six or seven years of hatred from fans). So why not add better AA/Latino characters, promote RJ as well, and keep Antonio where he is, mid-burner? Do you really think fans have the patience for another frontburner storyline with Antonio Vega? After Tess, the Santis, Java and Keri?

And as for RC, I don't remember him being hailed as a savior by fans until after he got into the job. Most of us expected more of the same old crap and that Asa's funeral would be just a temporary stunt. I think people were quite surprised when there turned out to be a real increase in the show's quality and writing. I know I was. Now not everyone may feel this way, but the fact is that the way I remember it, the praise came after his work started airing. You can't blame every fan's feelings on a couple overzealous soap columnists. And you can't say that just because you didn't enjoy it that nobody else could've.

Edited March 14, 200817 yr by Vee

As for the Vegas, I like their stories now a lot, and I used to like them much more (I loved Antonio in the 90s) but I don't think you can deny that Antonio was widely despised by a great many fans from 2000 until maybe a year ago. I don't think you'll find a huge hue and cry for more frontburner time for the Vegas after that. I like Antonio/Talia a lot, and I like the rapport with the brothers, but after he tanked story after story I think Tonio's airtime is just right.

A thousand times, AMEN. ANd one of the things I will ABSOLUTELY give RC credit for is making Antonio likable again. One of the biggest problems is that KdlR always goes to this place of anger and rage as an actor. And instead of writing AGAINST that, previous regimes wrote FOR it, which just made him insufferable. By infusing him with some humility and a sense of humor, Antonio is slowly but surely becoming a character I can once again get behind.

As for Cristian, my jury is still out on him. He was never as abrasive as Antonio, and getting him AWAY from Natalie was a HUGE step in the right direction. But I'm still not a complete fan, and am hoping for something down the road that will spin his character into something really interesting.

I. HAVE. NO. WORDS.

and we ALL know thats a first.

I will always defend the idea of Melaswen. Jim Reilly took a serial killer storyline to a whole new level and then he topped that idea with Melaswen. I just thought that was pure genius and an example of him "banging the drum" very loudly. What I love about Jim is that, even though he is repetitive is some aspects, he does try new things and tries to find new ways to tell a story. I really believe if Jim got his way, the story would've been told properly.

I will always defend the idea of Melaswen. Jim Reilly took a serial killer storyline to a whole new level and then he topped that idea with Melaswen. I just thought that was pure genius and an example of him "banging the drum" very loudly. What I love about Jim is that, even though he is repetitive is some aspects, he does try new things and tries to find new ways to tell a story. I really believe if Jim got his way, the story would've been told properly.

Okay... I can't believe I'm about to say this. ROTFLMAO

I can get behind the CONCEPT of Melaswen. They were able to save money on sets, create a very Twilight Zone atmosphere, and do something never done before on daytime. I'll be honest - I didn't turn on the story and want to beat it down to an inch of its life until the: magnetic floors, weather machine, and subsequent castle story that NEVER should have happened.

If someone pitched me the idea of a town built to look like Salem to terrorize the residents, my interests would be piqued. But the production of it was awful (Thanks, Wyman) and the turn it took once the real Salemites started heading there to the rescue was ABOMINABLE.

So yes, Toups... I HATED Melaswen, but yes Toups... I get why you feel the way you do.

Come on, Chandler. Clowns are love, and you know it!

*terrified whisper with vague unidentifiable accent*

Go! Go now! You cannot stay here. If they find you with me, they'll kill you too. Run and don't look back! Do you hear me?!

(mob sounds, barking dogs, gun shots)

They're coming! Quickly, go to a small house at the edge of the valley. Knock on the door two times, then two more times. When they ask for the password say "better than Higley don't mean crap." They'll let you in. You'll be safe. Go. And thank you.

LMAO. I mean, you're probably just another, rabid "Evangelin-ista"... but damn, that was funny.

(Don't worry, marceline. I wouldn't hold the Evangelove against you. Just ask ZENDALL FAN.)

Okay... I can't believe I'm about to say this. ROTFLMAO

I can get behind the CONCEPT of Melaswen. They were able to save money on sets, create a very Twilight Zone atmosphere, and do something never done before on daytime. I'll be honest - I didn't turn on the story and want to beat it down to an inch of its life until the: magnetic floors, weather machine, and subsequent castle story that NEVER should have happened.

If someone pitched me the idea of a town built to look like Salem to terrorize the residents, my interests would be piqued. But the production of it was awful (Thanks, Wyman) and the turn it took once the real Salemites started heading there to the rescue was ABOMINABLE.

So yes, Toups... I HATED Melaswen, but yes Toups... I get why you feel the way you do.

I hated Melaswen too - the actual story telling that we saw and the conclusion (what you mentioned) was absolutey horrible. But the idea of it was brilliant. I'm pretty sure that Melaswen was part of Jim's "two hour pitch" that he gave Corday. He had at least his whole first year planned out and maybe even more. But once Corday pushed up Jim's timeline, it threw everything that he pitched out the window and once that happened, Jim got fed up and just stopped caring. That's just my theory. I don't have any inside info.