Jump to content

Primetime Soaps


Recommended Posts

  • Members

So David Jacob wanted KL to be a show about whiners? 

My parents watched Thirtysomething and both told me years later how almost all the characters whined and complained all the time.  It was an actual punchline for many years about the show. 

At the same time, KL in season 1 wasn't sustainable and had to evolve.  It was given ample amounts of time until it found its groove.

Nowadays the show would have been canceled a few episodes into the first season.

I think NBC had trouble with primetime soaps because they weren't looking for a show that would work..just any show that was soapy.  

Of the short lived shows NBC tried, Flamingo Road was the best of the bunch.  And it's a shame that it got canceled instead of given more of a chance to right the ship.

 

Edited by Soaplovers
Link to comment
Share on other sites

  • Replies 1.3k
  • Created
  • Last Reply

Top Posters In This Topic

  • Members

I never thought about the lack of single people at the start of KL, but now that I do, it kind of makes sense that David Jacobs didn't think to include any. All throughout the 70s, all of your "people" drama series (meaning, anything not a crime drama, medical drama, sci-fi, or western) focused on families with a married couple and children (the big four come to mind: Waltons, Little House, Family, and Eight is Enough). You only saw single adults in such series when the older kids grew up, but their love lives as single adults were still kinda portrayed the same as teenagers until they were married off.

When you think about it, it really makes you see how much of a game-changer Abby really was. Characters like her had only been played for laughs on sitcoms until she came along.

ETA: The talk of short-lived primetime soaps is lining up perfectly with the fact that I've been thinking about giving a quick rewatch to the three I watched during the pandemic - Paper Dolls, Yellow Rose, and 2000 Malibu Road.

Edited by All My Shadows
Link to comment
Share on other sites

  • Members

I don't believe him either.  When Knots Landing premiered, David Jacobs was insistent that the "pitch" he'd initially given to CBS was "an American version of Scenes From a Marriage, which obviously wouldn't have included a "JR character" or an "Abby character".  CBS, of course, shot down his proposal as being too "dull" for their audience, and asked him instead to work-up something more EPIC, which inspired him to steal the characters from Cat on a Hot Tin Roof and move them from the Mississippi Delta to the setting of Giant, which he erroneously believed at the time was Dallas/Fort Worth.   The only way he ultimately convinced the network to greenlight Knots Landing was to purge one of the couples from his cul-de-sac and replace that couple with Gary & Valene, which he then complained about, because the "entire dynamic" of what he'd originally pitched was "compromised" by the addition of the Gary and Val and the deletion of Blank & Blank, whom he'd intended to place in that particular house.  (I've often wondered who 'Blank & Blank' were that got the axe.)      

Please register in order to view this content

Apparently so!    

If you've studied Scenes From a Marriage, it's a story of whiners.  Their "problems" are things along the lines of "does my husband truly appreciate me for who I am and what I bring to his life?", or "does he just want a wife?".  "Does my wife really love me?  Has ANYONE ever loved me?" 

It's all sheer angst.  That's what David Jacobs claims he pitched to CBS for Knots Landing. 

I believe the more "mundane" a conflict is, and the more it's discussed, it leads to the WHINING accusation. 

If you look at the first season of thirtysomething, the episodes were built around the most mundane things imaginable.  In one episode, Ellyn discovered the apartment she was renting was converting to a co-operative.  If she wanted to stay in the building, she'd be expected to purchase the unit.  She whined about it for a solid hour.  She loved the building and didn't want to move.  But could she afford the down payment on the co-op?  What if Mr. Right came along suddenly and she had to dispose of a  co-op in a "down market" instead of merely breaking a lease on an apartment?  Horrors!!  Her whole life was turned upside down over the co-op conversion! 

As viewers, most of us will never run Colby Co or will never testify in a dramatic murder trial.  But at some point in our lives we will agonize over the purchase of real estate.  Yet I'd never seen this "issue" dramatized on TV before.  thirtysomething delved into it DEEPLY (along with many other things just as mundane), and that's what led to the "whining" accusation from your parents (and from me).  We're accustomed to shows where people just "buy a ranch" or "buy a penthouse" or "buy a multi-national conglomerate" and don't give it a second thought.  We're not accustomed to watching someone weigh the pros & cons of a major purchase.  Everyone I knew called them "the whining yuppies" or "the whining baby boomers", but in hindsight, they introduced some topics that resonated with a really big audience, and they dealt with those topics in a clever way.  Although at the time it seemed like mere whining.  

Gary was offered tenure at the University!  Would he need to cut his hair and shave?  Would he be expected to buy a car instead of riding his bicycle to class?!  Would he have to purchase a sportscoat and stop wearing his high school athletic jacket??  Was he trading his "bohemian independence" for the "bourgeois pompous lifestyle" he'd always railed against?!  Horrors!! 

Hope wanted Baby Janey to have a Christmas tree for her first holiday season, because all of Hope's happy holiday memories were built around Christmas trees.  Michael expected to have eight nights of the menorah (in the window!  on newly-fallen snow!) and NO Christmas tree!  Horrors!! "Maybe my parents were right," Michael whined to Elliot.  "Maybe I should've married a Jewish girl instead of a Christian."  Elliot, who was considering divorcing Nancy because of their insurmountable angst, rolled his eyes and said, "Why yes, Michael, our shared faith has certainly been a beacon in my wonderful marriage with Nancy!"  lol. 

It was NOTHING but whining, but it was whining about things most of us, at some point, do encounter.   

I think you're right.  Abby showed an audience -- even in a somewhat negative way -- that a single person can indeed contribute to "family conflict", and probably paved the way for Gary, Ellyn, and Melissa to be an integral part of thirtysomething.   Had the show premiered in 1979, when Knots Landing did, it would've possibly been deemed necessary for Gary & Melissa to be married to each other and Ellyn wouldn't have been included at all.  

Edited by Broderick
Link to comment
Share on other sites

  • Members

Agree that having 4 married couples was limiting.

And the self contained episodes were eating up too much story. Karen's possible affair, Laura's rape etc could have gone on several episodes.

However, I don't agree that the the show would be cancelled. Knots ratings were inconsistent. Ep #1 was 23rd for the week,then 14th, 36th, 30th,14th , 38th and so on.

Not great but not cancellation worthy, neither then or now.

Link to comment
Share on other sites

  • Members

I think history demonstrates that most soaps find their footing in the second season.  Knots, Dynasty, and Falcon Crest are examples of that lesson.  Not just because they found their protagonist, but they established their tone.  The first season is experimental, the second shows progress, the third is often when a primetime soap hit its stride, the fourth begins showing signs of repetition. By the seventh season, when the primary contracts have expired, much of the initial cast is gone and they can never recapture the magic. 

Link to comment
Share on other sites

  • Members

There was a UK soap, Together, in the early '80s, which ended because the affiliate it was on (Southern) was shut down. They had a gay character in the first season and in the second and last, he moves a boyfriend in, and then they have various struggles (homophobia, of course, but also personality differences). It's a shame there is never a world where Knots or the other soaps would have done this...even Dynasty never let Steven's boyfriends stay around long enough. I just double checked and as soon as Steven said he would move in with Luke, Luke was gunned down. Then again, if death meant Luke could escape from Jack Coleman's wooden line readings, maybe he was better off.

Link to comment
Share on other sites

  • Members

Ironically, "thirtysomething" was one show I looked forward to watching every week (in bed, because it technically was on past my bedtime) and I was way, way, WAY outside their target audience in more ways than one, lol.

I, too, would love to know which couple Gary and Val replaced on KL.  I have to assume they were different from Kenny/Ginger, who were the show's designated young couple.  Maybe they were a couple who'd been married before but were now giving holy matrimony another try, lol.

Link to comment
Share on other sites

  • Members

I was far too young to understand MUCH of their "boomer angst", as well, but I usually made a point to watch it. 

What appealed to me about it was how non-homogenous they were.

Ellyn was your basic yuppy in her career goals (and in her attire), but she was also strangely neurotic and eccentric, almost like a Tennessee Williams heroine.  Gary and Melissa were orbiting around a "yuppy crowd" but were fundamentally bohemians who marched to the beat of a very non-yuppy drum.  Michael LOOKED like your basic yuppy and had a yuppy job, but instead of living in a Center City high-rise and driving a Mercedes, he lived in an old house (where something was always broken), had that old car, and expressed self-doubt (where you would've expected extreme confidence, considering his good looks). Hope was a housewife and stay-at-home mom in a period of time where most women her age were actively rejecting that role.   Nancy was a beaten-down artist who wanted to be creative, but felt saddled with two kids and a husband who was often a jerk.  Elliot seemed content to follow Michael down the Yuppy Brick Road but you could tell he envied Gary's free spirit and flagrant lack of commitment.    

Even though they were doing absolutely nothing in most episodes (except whining & whining, lol), they were entertaining to watch, because each character was so unique and cleverly drawn.  And the actors were GOOD, as evidenced by their zillion Emmy nominations.  

Please register in order to view this content

  

Link to comment
Share on other sites

  • Members

A divorcee living in the KL cul de sac would have been interesting and timely. Constance McCashin would have nailed it with John Pleshette as her ex who always wanted to get back together. A lot of story to explore there.

Laura making forays into the dating world, getting a job etc

Also  have Richard as a friend of Sid's working at Knots Landing motors to keep him in the story.

And also to add extra spice, have Kenny and Ginger living together rather than married.The first ep could show them deciding to co-habitate .But  Kenny and Ginger's motives would be different,and that could be explored.

That would have been a bit out there for 1979. 

Link to comment
Share on other sites

  • Members

While we're talking about thirtysomething, I just remembered they got such severe backlash to showing a gay couple (recurring characters) in bed that they lost advertisers and helped cause a chilling effect. It's the reminder I sometimes need that no matter how much I want to see soaps or TV shows be more inclusive, the audience is often not going to let them do so, including an audience you might have expected better of than, say, somebody sitting down to watch Hee Haw (nothing against Hee Haw, I watched it for years as a kid).

Strangers (Thirtysomething) - Wikipedia

There was no public outcry about the episode before it aired. Following the broadcast, ABC received around 400 telephone calls with about 90% of them being negative. TV Guide in its "Cheers & Jeers" column gave the episode a "Jeer", saying that having the men have sex on the first date perpetuated negative stereotypes about the promiscuity of gay men. Five of the show's regular sponsors pulled out of the episode, costing the network approximately $1.5 million in advertising revenue. ABC removed the episode from the summer rerun schedule out of fear for additional losses.[4] The controversy surrounding "Strangers" in the late 1980s, along with similar controversies relating to early 1990s episodes of such shows as Picket Fences ("Sugar & Spice") and Roseanne ("Don't Ask, Don't Tell"), led producers to refrain from presenting sexualization of their gay and lesbian characters. 

Edited by DRW50
Link to comment
Share on other sites

  • Members

Well, yes. Central Park West probably would've been more successful if it had been on Fox as an example as the only thing that was "wrong" with that show was that it was on the wrong network. Savannah was off-brand for the youthful The WB and was too expensive since it didn't repeat well and they couldn't afford doing more than 22 episodes per season.

 

NBC is the one network that never found their "brand" of prime time soaps - though you could argue that the Dick Wolf brand of Chicagos are soaps...

Link to comment
Share on other sites

Join the conversation

You can post now and register later. If you have an account, sign in now to post with your account.

Guest
Unfortunately, your content contains terms that we do not allow. Please edit your content to remove the highlighted words below.
Reply to this topic...

×   Pasted as rich text.   Paste as plain text instead

  Only 75 emoji are allowed.

×   Your link has been automatically embedded.   Display as a link instead

×   Your previous content has been restored.   Clear editor

×   You cannot paste images directly. Upload or insert images from URL.

  • Recently Browsing   0 members

    • No registered users viewing this page.



  • Recent Posts

    • I also wonder if it was considered controversial at the time to show a morally corrupt doctor?(another character troupe for Agnes Nixon, the upstanding male citizen who is hiding secrets back at home) Up until the early 1970s, prime-time would very rarely tell stories about the private lives of doctors, because advertisers tended to shy away from such content. @robbwolff -- so is this wrong that Ruth dated David before marrying Joe?  Dr. David Thornton is a fictional character from the ABC daytime soap opera All My Children, portrayed by Paul Gleason from 1976 to 1978.  He was introduced as a respected physician in Pine Valley, presenting himself as a widower to his colleagues at the hospital. This facade, however, concealed a darker truth: his wife, Edna Thornton, was alive, and he was leading a double life. David’s character is defined by manipulation and secrecy, as he maintained a carefully curated public image while engaging in deceitful and criminal behavior in his personal life. His relationships were marked by control and betrayal, particularly in his marriage to Edna and his romantic entanglements with other women. David’s charm and professional status allowed him to navigate Pine Valley’s social circles, but his actions revealed a calculating and ruthless nature. Career David was a doctor at Pine Valley Hospital, where he was well-regarded by his peers for his medical expertise. His professional life provided him with a veneer of respectability, which he exploited to mask his personal misdeeds. However, his career was not a central focus of his storyline; instead, it served as a backdrop to his personal schemes. His position at the hospital gave him access to resources, such as the drug digitalis, which he later used in his attempt to murder his wife. David’s professional life unraveled as his criminal actions came to light, tarnishing his reputation in the medical community. Personal Relationships and Family David’s family and romantic relationships were fraught with tension and deception, shaping much of his narrative arc: Edna Thornton (Wife): David was married to Edna Thornton, with whom he had a daughter, Dottie. To his colleagues, he claimed Edna was deceased, allowing him to pursue other relationships without suspicion. In reality, David was plotting to kill Edna, motivated by his desire to be free of her and possibly to gain financial or personal freedom. He began poisoning her with digitalis, a heart medication, which caused her to experience heart pains. Edna was unaware of David’s true intentions until after his death, when the truth about his poisoning scheme was revealed. Dottie Thornton (Daughter): David and Edna’s daughter, Dottie Thornton, was a significant character in All My Children. Portrayed by Dawn Marie Boyle (1977–1980) and later Tasia Valenza (1982–1986), Dottie was raised primarily by Edna. David’s neglectful and manipulative behavior extended to his daughter, as he showed little genuine care for her well-being. Dottie’s life was impacted by her father’s actions, particularly after his death, when Edna became a wealthy widow. Dottie later married Thaddeus “Tad” Martin in 1985, though their marriage ended in divorce in 1986, and she suffered the loss of an unborn child with Tad. Ruth Parker (Fiancée, 1976): David was engaged to Ruth Parker in 1976, furthering his pattern of deceit since he was still married to Edna. His engagement to Ruth, who was also involved with Jeff Martin, highlighted David’s willingness to manipulate romantic partners for his own gain. The engagement did not lead to marriage, as David’s true intentions and double life began to surface. Christina “Chris” Karras (Lover, 1978): In 1978, David began a romantic relationship with Dr. Christina “Chris” Karras, a fellow physician. This affair added another layer of complexity to his web of lies, as Chris was unaware of his marriage to Edna and his poisoning scheme. After David’s death, Chris was initially accused of his murder due to their relationship and her access to medical resources. However, Jeff Martin’s investigation cleared her name by proving David’s death was caused by his own actions. Parents: David’s parents are unnamed in the source material, and both are noted as deceased. No further details are provided about their influence on his life or their role in his backstory. Death David Thornton’s death in 1978 was a dramatic and fitting conclusion to his villainous arc, brought about by his own treachery. Intent on killing Edna to escape their marriage, David had been secretly administering digitalis to her, causing her heart issues. In a twist of fate, their daughter, Dottie, innocently switched Edna’s drink with David’s during one of his poisoning attempts. Unaware that the drink was laced with a lethal dose of digitalis, David consumed it and suffered a fatal heart attack. His death was initially investigated as a possible murder, with Chris Karras as the prime suspect due to her relationship with David and her medical knowledge. However, Dr. Jeff Martin conducted a toxicology screen on David’s body, which revealed that the digitalis poisoning was the cause of both Edna’s heart pains and David’s death. This evidence exonerated Chris and exposed David’s plan to kill his wife, cementing his legacy as a tragic and self-destructive figure. Impact and Legacy David Thornton’s storyline, though relatively short-lived (1976–1978), was impactful due to its intensity and the ripple effects on other characters. His death left Edna a wealthy widow, altering her and Dottie’s circumstances and setting the stage for further drama, including Edna’s manipulation by conman Ray Gardner. David’s actions also strained relationships among other Pine Valley residents, particularly through his engagement to Ruth Parker and affair with Chris Karras, which intersected with Jeff Martin’s storyline. His character exemplified the classic soap opera archetype of a charming yet duplicitous villain whose downfall is precipitated by his own hubris. Additional Notes Portrayal: Paul Gleason’s performance as David Thornton brought a compelling intensity to the role, making the character memorable despite his brief tenure. Gleason’s ability to portray both charm and menace suited David’s dual nature as a respected doctor and a scheming husband. Storyline Context: David’s arc occurred during the early years of All My Children, a period when the show focused on intricate personal dramas and moral dilemmas. His poisoning plot and double life were emblematic of the show’s penchant for high-stakes interpersonal conflict. Lack of Additional Family Details: Beyond Edna and Dottie, no other family members (such as siblings or extended relatives) are mentioned in the source material, limiting the scope of his familial connections. Conclusion Dr. David Thornton was a multifaceted antagonist in All My Children, whose life was marked by professional success, personal deception, and a fatal miscalculation. As a doctor, he wielded authority and respect, but his secret plan to murder his wife, Edna, revealed a cold and calculating core. His relationships with Edna, Dottie, Ruth Parker, and Chris Karras were defined by manipulation, and his death by accidental self-poisoning was a poetic end to his schemes. David’s legacy in Pine Valley lived on through Edna’s newfound wealth and Dottie’s subsequent storylines, making him a pivotal figure in the show’s early narrative. His story remains a classic example of soap opera drama, blending betrayal, tragedy, and retribution.
    • The only blonde I see is one of the actual women staring at first & then screaming & running later.  DAYS: Vivian's manservant Ivan is in a long curly red wig. 

      Please register in order to view this content

      Y&R: long straight black wig is the actor Peter Barton whose character name I am blanking on.   
    • I very much liked office Cleary and the actress who portrayed her (as you say, Mary Peterson).  A shame her turn didn't evolve into a contract role.   BTW, does anyone know the timeframe/years that Betty Rae served as casting director?  If i understand correctly, she not only led the effort for contract roles, but also for shorter 13- and 26-week roles.  IMO, GL had LOTS of very well-casted, limited roles, too. I'm surprised the actors throughout the soap industry, and especially P&G actors, have not assembled a book or something similar, praising Rae.  Each actor could write a few paragraphs or a page of text describing his or her experience.
    • No. Ruth had an extramarital affair with David while married to Joe.
    • I'm not sure I agree with Bernstein's children on that. Bernstein's life and activism here: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Leonard_Bernstein#Social_activism_and_humanitarian_efforts
    • Thursday & Friday's episodes were excellent. The build-up was most definitely worth the wait (2 months). TMG, I can't give her enough accolades. AM, was also absolutely incredible. I think the fallout is going to have a ripple effect. The little clues that have been dropped,  hopefully, will weave seamlessly to reveal even bigger bombshells for the Dupree's and Martin.
    • Thanks, msn drives me nuts on the one hand but on the other hand their headlines appeal to me. And, I just don't do FoxNews.   
×
×
  • Create New...

Important Information

By using this site, you agree to our Terms of Use and Privacy Policy