I disagree and think the only way we can limit abortions is ceasing them altogether.

Honestly, how can pro-choicers not realize that Planned Parenthood is PROFITING from the abortion procedures they provide? It's hard to think about, but it's true.

And when women's organizations are selling cute T-shirts proclaiming "I had an abortion!" like it empowers women and is something to stand up and shout about, I can't believe extreme pro-choice organizations and Planned Parenthood have any real hope or care to limit abortions -- especially since it can make some mean "blood" money.

Pro-choicers make documentaries about women who've had abortions, to let them know there's nothing shameful about it. By lifting the shame, they're basically saying, "Come one, come all!"

I'm not saying they're just in it for the profit. But I'm also not going to say I believe they truly want abortions limited -- significantly. All the signs to the contrary tell me otherwise.

And how do you propose we do that? Get rid of abortions all the together? How do you think we can stop something that's been practiced since almost and possibly pre-historic times.

I don't knwo what you've been seeing, but you are very, very off base about Planned Parenthood and other orgnaizations like that. You're seeing what you're pro-life stance wants you to see, not what's really there.

Seriously, you think this can be stopped, and would support that rather then trying to stop the problem before it starts and start making our youth more prepared for sex? I guess, I'm just not at all logical or rational to think making abortion illegal is going to stop it, and fix everything. Tell that to the hundreds and thousands of generations that came before us.

LOL, fair warning, this topic is my Senior Summary topic, which I'm currently writing, so I'm pretty much prepared to go 1,000 rounds on the subject. And JSF, I recommend reading the Majortiy opinion in Roe. Its quite enlightening and very informative. Deals with a lot of issues that people have brought up here, and ancient attitudes on the subject. I don't expect it to change any minds, but it's a read that makes you think about both sides.

Edited February 20, 200718 yr by Kylie

And what makes you more right, and more qualified to, make a decision about me, my life, and my baby, then I am? Why do you know better then I do, what is right for me?

I'm not even sure I understand what you're saying. No one here has said anything about "God" or playing God. Or even knowing what right for someone else. That's a religious arguement, and Roe has nothing to do with religion, nor should it.

You don't like it, you think it's wrong, more power to you. And for me, I wouldn't do it. But I think it's very, very, very wrong, to believe that I have that right over someone else.

And a memo, hardly any abortions, unless they're second/third term are done like that, and 9 x' 10 those abotions are illegal anyway. You do know they can do it with drugs? Makes an abortion no harder then a miscarriage, and sometimes doesn't even require a hospital stay or visit. That's old school, pro-life mantra, the limb from limb thing. It was a method, but is hardly practiced anymore.

Well, just a few years ago, the girl on "The O'Reilly Factor" delivered her baby in a toilet. A TOILET. I won't support that. I won't support a woman's right to do that to a human, someone who could have been you or me at our most vulnerable stage.

That's why I believe I'm qualified to make that decision. Not just me, though. Others. Pro-lifers. Legislators in general. You and others may or may not disagree, but I believe that I see what is in the mother's body. I see a fetus, I see innocence that should be protected. And because I've SEEN abortion pictures and video, I've seen the most disgusting thing that can ever happen to a human being. And for that to happen to such an innocent being, the most vulnerable of our race, seems almost cannibalistic to me. Because we're defending abortion rights in the name of that heaping pile dead flesh, I see misplaced priorities. I'll never fathom how anyone can see it differently. Why SHOULDN'T the country protect our own race? Our legacy? Again, women live about 70 or 80 years. Their abortion will give them 50 or 60 years of independence, autonomy, from their controlled fertility. But that, to me, doesn't even RATE to the potential of all those dead fetuses. People misplace their priorities. We're not here forever. What's the big deal? Have the child? I just don't get it.

As for the playing God language, I used that on purpose. I said "playing God" por pointless killing, because some pro-lifers object abortion based on religious views and others object it for ethical or other reasons. Roe isn't about religion, and similarly, pro-life America isn't about religion either.

As for the last sentence, no offense to you, but the fact that we're even saying "oh that was the old way of doing abortions, now it's better" just horrifies me. I just feel we're far too desensitized.

You ever been to a Planned Parenthood? You ever taken the chance to hear them out? Abortion is NOT what the preech. It's an option they offer. They preech safe sex. Birth contorl. Relationships between partners. Teach means of communication, etc. They don't want abortion, they want to prevent it from ever having gotten there. And if someone needs an abortion, they provide the service. Abortions are not like a walk in, say I want to abort my baby, and be done with it kind of deal. There is tons of counseling, mediation, one on one time with the mother (and father or family member). There's usually an exam, sometimes an utlrasound. There's chance after chance for these girls, women to change their minds if they choose. But that's what it's about, choosing.

Abortion has exsisted since the Plato and Aristotle were alive. Was pratice, and welcomed by the Ancient Greeks and Romans (all intensely God/s fairing people). This isn't somthing new, and it's not something that's going to go away. If you take the legality away from it, then you're putting the life the unborn above the life of a mother. Because a girl/women who is desperate enough to have an abortion will, and it could kill her if not done properly. You can't be pro-life and value one life over another.

I can be pro-life and value both lives equally. Because ideally, women would realize that abortion is a social evil (again, using that word for lack of a better one) and, if they chose to inflict an illegal procedure on themselves, frankly, that's their free will. They accept the consequences of that admittedly risky action. This isn't about putting one life over another one. It's about making people realize, or hoping to make them realize, or just saying we believe, that abortion is wrong, it should never have been legalized, and we should all have a change of heart and realize we once were fetuses and, as those who are lucky (literally) to be alive, we should give everyone the same courtesy. Anyone who chooses to do something that is illegal, from that point, becomes a criminal.

Danni would have my head for saying this, and I'm not directly comparing the two, but as a "for instance," SLAVERY once was legal and applauded too. People eventually realized they were wrong. The Supreme Court used the same dehumanizing terms or constructions to describe slaves as they do with fetuses today. That's why I believe a change of heart can come.

Wow, okay, you never should be anywhere near anyone with power or influence. And that last line of my post, wasn't saying that all. I never once said "better" or "right". I just said that's not how it's done anymore. A fact.

It's sick for someone to think they have rights to my body. It really is. That's the same a rape, IMO. Because in that instance a man believes he has the right to do as he wants with that woman's body. That's what this is. It's medically telling a woman, that you know what's best for her. You're going to make sure that she does as you say. You're going to get what you want, she can be damned.

That's such a heart warming thought.

You're basing this on a girl having a baby in a toilet? So? People deliver in stranger places. My cousin was born in a driveway. It's a force of nature. Jesus was born in a manger, a barn, basically. That makes the rest of women, some how unable to be rational and make decisions for ourselves about our bodies? Because a few didn't?

K, if you say so.

Edited February 20, 200718 yr by Kylie

YOU ARE A MAN! USE A CONDOM!

BE A MAN!

We keep saying that in this thread, Brandeis, but honestly, when did anyone in the thread ever suggest men SHOULDN'T use condoms!

I'm still trying to figure that one out! I haven't seen that argument yet!

Anyway, the point then, becomes, condoms fail...aren't they just 85, 86 percent effective? That's not very promising. And birth control pills fail as well.

That's not what the fight is about. Many pro-choice supporters, myself included, wouldn't have abortions. But we don't believe it's right to tell others' they can't. If i went out and had and abortion tomorrow, what does that do to you? Why do you care? What impact does it have on your life? The answer: None. It's giving women a choice. John McCain somehow knows better then me, what's right for my life? And that said, I want to protect women too. Because abortion isn't a new issue, and it's not going away. As least if the practice is legalized and monitored then it's safe. The goal of the pro-choice stance, is to make abortions uneccassary. Get society to a point where sex isn't a tabboo. Where you're not stigmatized as having done something bad when you have sex. To get our youth, educated in safe sex. To make them aware of their opinions, make them afforable and accessible. So that abortion does't end up being necessary. Those same people who think that they can tell me what to do with my body, are the ones promoting the taboos on sex, which lead to unwanted pregnancies, and ultimately abortion. So, while abortion may seem to be a pro-choice decision, it's being fueled just as much by the attitudes and decisions of pro-lifers.

Well, that's just the thing: Kylie.

I know pro-choicers don't think that's what their fight is about (that bloody, heaping pile of dead, bloody fetuses), but that's what is GOING ON. Nobody can deny this. I believe that's a mark of shame for our entire country. That we fight and advocate to do that to our own.

You asked what abortion does to me -- if you had one? Nothing. But if I were to have a romp with a woman that ensued in a pregnancy, then it would impact me. And that's why it impacts us all. We were all in the woman at one time. That impacts all of us. For you, that wouldn't impact me, it would impact the man who got you pregnant though. It's true for every situation where it takes two to tango.

Oh, boy, do I disagree with that statement that pro-choice is about getting people to have fewer abortions.

Think about it. With the failure rate of condoms, if more teens and adults find sex to be less of a taboo, that adds to those who are risking with faulty forms of birth control -- and then there's your fall-back: abortion.

Sex is no longer a taboo. With Internet porn and ever-trashier television, we're not living in the "Leave it to Beaver" era anymore. And in a way, that's a shame.

Yes, sex is no longer that much of a taboo. And because of it, teens are giving oral like they'd give handshakes.

Planned Parenthood hasn't helped them; it has failed them.

I'm not saying abstinence only education is the best way to go, but I've studied most of PP's campaigns and they've been rightly criticized on "The O'Reilly Factor" because they glamorize sex, they do glamorize abortion and they even demonize men. Have you seen these cartoon, childish ads that organization produces? They're awful!

It's sick for someone to think they have rights to my body.

It's not about them having rights to your body, It's about them protecting the helpless & innocent from being MURDERED

You're acting like the "toilet birth" is the norm. Funny you bring that up, because if abortions were outlawed, these type of things WOULD become the norm (with women trying to do it themselves). I'm not an expert on the size, but don't most abortions occur when the fetus is about the size of your thumb (or smaller)? "Slice and dice from limb to limb" when it's that small? Don't think so.

Well, maybe when I have more time I'll search for the real statistics so we can have something to work with. I can't debate this point too much since I don't know what size the fetus is for "most" abortions.

And how do you propose we do that? Get rid of abortions all the together? How do you think we can stop something that's been practiced since almost and possibly pre-historic times.

I don't knwo what you've been seeing, but you are very, very off base about Planned Parenthood and other orgnaizations like that. You're seeing what you're pro-life stance wants you to see, not what's really there.

Seriously, you think this can be stopped, and would support that rather then trying to stop the problem before it starts and start making our youth more prepared for sex? I guess, I'm just not at all logical or rational to think making abortion illegal is going to stop it, and fix everything. Tell that to the hundreds and thousands of generations that came before us.

LOL, fair warning, this topic is my Senior Summary topic, which I'm currently writing, so I'm pretty much prepared to go 1,000 rounds on the subject. And JSF, I recommend reading the Majortiy opinion in Roe. Its quite enlightening and very informative. Deals with a lot of issues that people have brought up here, and ancient attitudes on the subject. I don't expect it to change any minds, but it's a read that makes you think about both sides.

Oh, I did the abortion (pro-life) seminar in college, so I've read the majority opinion, and you're right, it didn't change my mind.

But it's funny you say I'm seeing only what pro-life wants me to see.

That's not true. I've actually immersed myself in Planned Parenthood's own rhetoric. Thanks to their Web site, their slew of countless splinter, gimmicky Web sites (God, those cartoonish, childish sites really discredit them and they don't even know it! They think they're hip) and thanks to YouTube, I have also seen all their TV ads and promos and documentaries.

Funny thing is, I never go to pro-life sites. I'm almost obsessed with pro-choice sites and propaganda. I once spent a whole night watching, for the first and only time, pictures and video of actual abortion procedures (now that was the one pro-life or life oriented site, admittedly) just to see for myself, scary though it may be, what I was fighting for.

Those images solidified my stance more than any other rhetoric could.

Wow, okay, you never should be anywhere near anyone with power or influence. And that last line of my post, wasn't saying that all. I never once said "better" or "right". I just said that's not how it's done anymore. A fact.

It's sick for someone to think they have rights to my body. It really is. That's the same a rape, IMO. Because in that instance a man believes he has the right to do as he wants with that woman's body. That's what this is. It's medically telling a woman, that you know what's best for her. You're going to make sure that she does as you say. You're going to get what you want, she can be damned.

That's such a heart warming thought.

You're basing this on a girl having a baby in a toilet? So? People deliver in stranger places. My cousin was born in a driveway. It's a force of nature. Jesus was born in a manger, a barn, basically. That makes the rest of women, some how unable to be rational and make decisions for ourselves about our bodies? Because a few didn't?

K, if you say so.

But there it goes again. That's not a "man" telling anyone what to do with their body. That's women too. Not just men live in the world. Not just men are pro-life.

It's not about them having rights to your body, It's about them protecting the helpless & innocent from being MURDERED

Exactly, R!ck.

Is taking someone off life-support murder? Depends on what your definition is.

Edited February 20, 200718 yr by Pine Charles

These arguments are NEVER fair.

A man can't gestate a pregnancy.

Sorry, the argument doesn't fly.

That's a woman's gift. Yes, GIFT. This is not someone trying to force duties and hardships on women, as Steinem and the far left have tried to paint it; this is about getting people to realize that pregnancy is natural, it's beautiful; yes, it's "woman's work" but not in the negative way they paint it; it's just that only women CAN do it.

So to argue that a woman shouldn't carry a baby to term if a father wants it, just because he lacks that natural ability and never will be able to have that capacity...it just doesn't make sense. It seems like a cop-out to support abortion rights, with no real argument.

Since when is a person required to use their "gift" to benefit another. Especially when it does pose emotional and physical risk to the gift giver. It isn't that I don't understand your frustration; I also get annoyed with the idea that men don't have a right to an opinion on the subject because they lack a uterus. I just believe that it is the person most directly effected that has the choice ultimately..not her parents, boyfriend, preacher or President. I understand your platform, you believe that the embryo or fetus is a fully a sentient human life. I just do not agree with that assessment. If I did, I would agree that all abortions should stop no matter what (rape, incest, etc). I believe that early stage pregnancies are not sentient humans but rather potentially sentient humans and consequently the mother takes precedence. We could argue that point until the cows come home and never come to an agreement.

It's not about them having rights to your body, It's about them protecting the helpless & innocent from being MURDERED

If no men felt they had "rights" to women's bodies and they used a rubber, no one would have to worry about helpless and innocent.

and if you had to carry one in your body you might be less inclined to believe it is an independent life. And even if it is a life from day one of conception what obligates ME to it? Because the father says so? Let him carry it in his body.

As usual the men think they have all the answers but they'll never have to do the long haul. If I were straight I'd want you guys (not you lovable guys, str8 guys) to use a condom to protect me from disease as well as pregnancy, even if I was on the pill.

If no men felt they had "rights" to women's bodies and they used a rubber, no one would have to worry about helpless and innocent.

and if you had to carry one in your body you might be less inclined to believe it is an independent life. And even if it is a life from day one of conception what obligates ME to it? Because the father says so? Let him carry it in his body.

As usual the men think they have all the answers but they'll never have to do the long haul. If I were straight I'd want you guys (not you lovable guys, str8 guys) to use a condom to protect me from disease as well as pregnancy, even if I was on the pill.

I have to agree with JSF on that one; it is not a reasonable argument because it is impossible. A man CAN'T carry a pregnancy anymore than a woman with a hysterectomy can. There seems to be varied opinions on the topic of abortion across all genders/sexual orientations; it isn't fair to isolate straight guys as a single entity with a single opinion. Surely men (gay and straight), infertile women and lesbians can have differing and valid opinions on abortion although no one in that group is likely to have an unintended pregnancy and need to face an abortion. I know lesbians CAN get pregnant, but unless they are raped or bisexual, UNINTENDED pregnancies are certainly unusual. I think I have made my personal opinion on the topic known and my reasoning for that opinion. I basically agree with you, however I can understand and sympathize with other opinions. I don't see it as "the evil straight guys" vs "feminists". I also think that any woman that feels strongly that a man use condoms should insist he wear one; that would work anytime consentual sex is involved assuming the woman just says NO (quite simple really). Unfortuantely condoms are not as effective as BCPs in preventing pregnancy. That is the reason my mom calls me her "little Trojan warrior".

Edited February 20, 200718 yr by rxcats