Members Kylie Posted February 20, 2007 Members Share Posted February 20, 2007 And how do you propose we do that? Get rid of abortions all the together? How do you think we can stop something that's been practiced since almost and possibly pre-historic times. I don't knwo what you've been seeing, but you are very, very off base about Planned Parenthood and other orgnaizations like that. You're seeing what you're pro-life stance wants you to see, not what's really there. Seriously, you think this can be stopped, and would support that rather then trying to stop the problem before it starts and start making our youth more prepared for sex? I guess, I'm just not at all logical or rational to think making abortion illegal is going to stop it, and fix everything. Tell that to the hundreds and thousands of generations that came before us. LOL, fair warning, this topic is my Senior Summary topic, which I'm currently writing, so I'm pretty much prepared to go 1,000 rounds on the subject. And JSF, I recommend reading the Majortiy opinion in Roe. Its quite enlightening and very informative. Deals with a lot of issues that people have brought up here, and ancient attitudes on the subject. I don't expect it to change any minds, but it's a read that makes you think about both sides. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Members JER Soaps Fan Posted February 20, 2007 Members Share Posted February 20, 2007 Well, just a few years ago, the girl on "The O'Reilly Factor" delivered her baby in a toilet. A TOILET. I won't support that. I won't support a woman's right to do that to a human, someone who could have been you or me at our most vulnerable stage. That's why I believe I'm qualified to make that decision. Not just me, though. Others. Pro-lifers. Legislators in general. You and others may or may not disagree, but I believe that I see what is in the mother's body. I see a fetus, I see innocence that should be protected. And because I've SEEN abortion pictures and video, I've seen the most disgusting thing that can ever happen to a human being. And for that to happen to such an innocent being, the most vulnerable of our race, seems almost cannibalistic to me. Because we're defending abortion rights in the name of that heaping pile dead flesh, I see misplaced priorities. I'll never fathom how anyone can see it differently. Why SHOULDN'T the country protect our own race? Our legacy? Again, women live about 70 or 80 years. Their abortion will give them 50 or 60 years of independence, autonomy, from their controlled fertility. But that, to me, doesn't even RATE to the potential of all those dead fetuses. People misplace their priorities. We're not here forever. What's the big deal? Have the child? I just don't get it. As for the playing God language, I used that on purpose. I said "playing God" por pointless killing, because some pro-lifers object abortion based on religious views and others object it for ethical or other reasons. Roe isn't about religion, and similarly, pro-life America isn't about religion either. As for the last sentence, no offense to you, but the fact that we're even saying "oh that was the old way of doing abortions, now it's better" just horrifies me. I just feel we're far too desensitized. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Members JER Soaps Fan Posted February 20, 2007 Members Share Posted February 20, 2007 I can be pro-life and value both lives equally. Because ideally, women would realize that abortion is a social evil (again, using that word for lack of a better one) and, if they chose to inflict an illegal procedure on themselves, frankly, that's their free will. They accept the consequences of that admittedly risky action. This isn't about putting one life over another one. It's about making people realize, or hoping to make them realize, or just saying we believe, that abortion is wrong, it should never have been legalized, and we should all have a change of heart and realize we once were fetuses and, as those who are lucky (literally) to be alive, we should give everyone the same courtesy. Anyone who chooses to do something that is illegal, from that point, becomes a criminal. Danni would have my head for saying this, and I'm not directly comparing the two, but as a "for instance," SLAVERY once was legal and applauded too. People eventually realized they were wrong. The Supreme Court used the same dehumanizing terms or constructions to describe slaves as they do with fetuses today. That's why I believe a change of heart can come. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Members Kylie Posted February 20, 2007 Members Share Posted February 20, 2007 Wow, okay, you never should be anywhere near anyone with power or influence. And that last line of my post, wasn't saying that all. I never once said "better" or "right". I just said that's not how it's done anymore. A fact. It's sick for someone to think they have rights to my body. It really is. That's the same a rape, IMO. Because in that instance a man believes he has the right to do as he wants with that woman's body. That's what this is. It's medically telling a woman, that you know what's best for her. You're going to make sure that she does as you say. You're going to get what you want, she can be damned. That's such a heart warming thought. You're basing this on a girl having a baby in a toilet? So? People deliver in stranger places. My cousin was born in a driveway. It's a force of nature. Jesus was born in a manger, a barn, basically. That makes the rest of women, some how unable to be rational and make decisions for ourselves about our bodies? Because a few didn't? K, if you say so. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Members JER Soaps Fan Posted February 20, 2007 Members Share Posted February 20, 2007 We keep saying that in this thread, Brandeis, but honestly, when did anyone in the thread ever suggest men SHOULDN'T use condoms! I'm still trying to figure that one out! I haven't seen that argument yet! Anyway, the point then, becomes, condoms fail...aren't they just 85, 86 percent effective? That's not very promising. And birth control pills fail as well. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Members JER Soaps Fan Posted February 20, 2007 Members Share Posted February 20, 2007 Well, that's just the thing: Kylie. I know pro-choicers don't think that's what their fight is about (that bloody, heaping pile of dead, bloody fetuses), but that's what is GOING ON. Nobody can deny this. I believe that's a mark of shame for our entire country. That we fight and advocate to do that to our own. You asked what abortion does to me -- if you had one? Nothing. But if I were to have a romp with a woman that ensued in a pregnancy, then it would impact me. And that's why it impacts us all. We were all in the woman at one time. That impacts all of us. For you, that wouldn't impact me, it would impact the man who got you pregnant though. It's true for every situation where it takes two to tango. Oh, boy, do I disagree with that statement that pro-choice is about getting people to have fewer abortions. Think about it. With the failure rate of condoms, if more teens and adults find sex to be less of a taboo, that adds to those who are risking with faulty forms of birth control -- and then there's your fall-back: abortion. Sex is no longer a taboo. With Internet porn and ever-trashier television, we're not living in the "Leave it to Beaver" era anymore. And in a way, that's a shame. Yes, sex is no longer that much of a taboo. And because of it, teens are giving oral like they'd give handshakes. Planned Parenthood hasn't helped them; it has failed them. I'm not saying abstinence only education is the best way to go, but I've studied most of PP's campaigns and they've been rightly criticized on "The O'Reilly Factor" because they glamorize sex, they do glamorize abortion and they even demonize men. Have you seen these cartoon, childish ads that organization produces? They're awful! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Members R!ck Posted February 20, 2007 Members Share Posted February 20, 2007 It's not about them having rights to your body, It's about them protecting the helpless & innocent from being MURDERED Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Members JER Soaps Fan Posted February 20, 2007 Members Share Posted February 20, 2007 Well, maybe when I have more time I'll search for the real statistics so we can have something to work with. I can't debate this point too much since I don't know what size the fetus is for "most" abortions. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Members JER Soaps Fan Posted February 20, 2007 Members Share Posted February 20, 2007 Oh, I did the abortion (pro-life) seminar in college, so I've read the majority opinion, and you're right, it didn't change my mind. But it's funny you say I'm seeing only what pro-life wants me to see. That's not true. I've actually immersed myself in Planned Parenthood's own rhetoric. Thanks to their Web site, their slew of countless splinter, gimmicky Web sites (God, those cartoonish, childish sites really discredit them and they don't even know it! They think they're hip) and thanks to YouTube, I have also seen all their TV ads and promos and documentaries. Funny thing is, I never go to pro-life sites. I'm almost obsessed with pro-choice sites and propaganda. I once spent a whole night watching, for the first and only time, pictures and video of actual abortion procedures (now that was the one pro-life or life oriented site, admittedly) just to see for myself, scary though it may be, what I was fighting for. Those images solidified my stance more than any other rhetoric could. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Members JER Soaps Fan Posted February 20, 2007 Members Share Posted February 20, 2007 But there it goes again. That's not a "man" telling anyone what to do with their body. That's women too. Not just men live in the world. Not just men are pro-life. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Members JER Soaps Fan Posted February 20, 2007 Members Share Posted February 20, 2007 Exactly, R!ck. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Members Pine Charles Posted February 20, 2007 Members Share Posted February 20, 2007 Is taking someone off life-support murder? Depends on what your definition is. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Members rxcats Posted February 20, 2007 Members Share Posted February 20, 2007 Since when is a person required to use their "gift" to benefit another. Especially when it does pose emotional and physical risk to the gift giver. It isn't that I don't understand your frustration; I also get annoyed with the idea that men don't have a right to an opinion on the subject because they lack a uterus. I just believe that it is the person most directly effected that has the choice ultimately..not her parents, boyfriend, preacher or President. I understand your platform, you believe that the embryo or fetus is a fully a sentient human life. I just do not agree with that assessment. If I did, I would agree that all abortions should stop no matter what (rape, incest, etc). I believe that early stage pregnancies are not sentient humans but rather potentially sentient humans and consequently the mother takes precedence. We could argue that point until the cows come home and never come to an agreement. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Members Brandeis Posted February 20, 2007 Members Share Posted February 20, 2007 If no men felt they had "rights" to women's bodies and they used a rubber, no one would have to worry about helpless and innocent. and if you had to carry one in your body you might be less inclined to believe it is an independent life. And even if it is a life from day one of conception what obligates ME to it? Because the father says so? Let him carry it in his body. As usual the men think they have all the answers but they'll never have to do the long haul. If I were straight I'd want you guys (not you lovable guys, str8 guys) to use a condom to protect me from disease as well as pregnancy, even if I was on the pill. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Members rxcats Posted February 20, 2007 Members Share Posted February 20, 2007 I have to agree with JSF on that one; it is not a reasonable argument because it is impossible. A man CAN'T carry a pregnancy anymore than a woman with a hysterectomy can. There seems to be varied opinions on the topic of abortion across all genders/sexual orientations; it isn't fair to isolate straight guys as a single entity with a single opinion. Surely men (gay and straight), infertile women and lesbians can have differing and valid opinions on abortion although no one in that group is likely to have an unintended pregnancy and need to face an abortion. I know lesbians CAN get pregnant, but unless they are raped or bisexual, UNINTENDED pregnancies are certainly unusual. I think I have made my personal opinion on the topic known and my reasoning for that opinion. I basically agree with you, however I can understand and sympathize with other opinions. I don't see it as "the evil straight guys" vs "feminists". I also think that any woman that feels strongly that a man use condoms should insist he wear one; that would work anytime consentual sex is involved assuming the woman just says NO (quite simple really). Unfortuantely condoms are not as effective as BCPs in preventing pregnancy. That is the reason my mom calls me her "little Trojan warrior". Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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