GL: Lizzie fakes baby blues & drugs Jonathan to try and rape him

[SpiritualJunkie]

Yeah, I knew that was what you meant. I always thought he knew exactly how he was going to hurt Reva.

I don't think the buildup to both pairings was obvious from the start, though. Jonathan/Tammy had, what..maybe 4 or less episodes together per month? They were still in each other's orbits but didn't quite share the same storyline. With Josh/Cassie, I thought they had good chemistry when NF took over and I liked their friendship but didn't think TPTB would even think of putting them together. But now that we've seen a romance happen in both cases, looking back, everything that happened beforehand seems to have fallen into place. And I think it's all somewhat unintentional because TPTB have openly said (especially with the Tammy/Jonathan) story that they were still at crossroads on whether they wanted to go there or not. They weren't positive from the start that they were going to make those two a romantic couple.

I don't think Tammy falling in love with Jonathan was really all that plot-driven. The fact that she did made for great story but it was also in character. What disturbed Tammy the most after finding out that Jonathan had used her to get back at Reva was the fact that she actually fell for him. And not only that, she fell for someone who could be so evil and manipulative. Jonathan was the complete opposite of who she was. I don't think her feelings for him turned off just like that when she found out the truth. She did a great job of suppressing her feelings but I don't think they ever fully went away.

But what exactly were you looking for when you say you wished Tammy's healing had played out the way her destruction had? Personally, I wished they had focused more on Tammy. Her scene with Sandy in where she jumped into the water hoping to make herself clean was a great start but there really was no follow-through.

When the non-wedding actually took place, it seemed like Jonathan hadn't sent the police. It wasn't until March that the writers seemingly shifted gears and revealed that Jonathan had. This all lead to Sandy's death. The writing was a little shaky but then Tammy & Jonathan had this good talk where Tammy said she thought they were meant to be together and that it was fate that brought them to each other and Jonathan said something along the lines of believing that people should create their own future instead. I think those aspects of their characters (Tammy's belief in fate and Jonathan's belief in making things happen) has remained quite constant.

About Lizzie..yeah, it was a mistake to make her good but it seems now that she was never genuinely good to begin with. I don't know how something can be campy and tragic at the same time, though. If something tragic is going to happen, I don't think it's going to be from this fake PPD stuff.

King, it's clear someone is going to die but I don't think it's either Tammy or Jonathan.

[King]

The person to die is:

Tammy.

[Q Steph]

King, PM me PLEASE!!Tell ME EVERYTHING! Please.

Where did you get your info?

I was thinking there would be some sort of happy ending!

[King]

I put the name in my last post, Q.S.!

[Q Steph]

Thank you King and screw GL!

I'm through with this [!@#$%^&*] show. There, I've found my light by fading the screen to black!

[dc11786]

When I refer to Jonathan and Tammy's romance, I pinpoint the start date as March/April 2005. The stuff that happened between September-February was written as if Jonathan and Tammy weren't going to be a couple. Tammy was moving on with Sandy and trying to recover while Jonathan was the show's new Jeffrey O'Neill who was involved with EVERYBODY's business and butting into a lot of storylines. Jonathan should have been invovled with Tammy's storyline because of what happened but it wasn't until March/April that scenes were written with a Jammy slant. David Kriezman said in the November 2004 TV Guide, I think, that he was surprised that Jonathan and Tammy had so many fans and that Jammy was something to consider. I think by March/April, when I feel the latest incarnation of Tammy and Jonathan storyline started, it was clear that they were going to be together without being together.

The fire. Jonathan's illiteracy. Jobs at Lewis. Darla. Sorry, other than the job at Lewis I don't think any of these story points led to anything. Jonathan and Tammy seemed to be in a 'stable' storyline around June after the Alfred reveal.

I don't see how Tammy falling for Jonathan was in character, which isn't necessarily a bad thing. I think it was a change for the character, and change can be a good thing. Jonathan wasn't Tammy's type, and she acknowledged that. What is it that she loves about Jonathan though? Didn't she want to help him to help herself initially? Or am I remembering that incorrectly? Jonathan is still selfdestructive and Tammy creeping with Jonathan is not Tammy's style. My issue with the change though is that Tammy was much more interesting before she got involved with Jonathan, in my opinion.

Unfortunately, I think TPTB do like Jonathan and Tammy, but TPTB didn't know what to do with them. Jonathan and Tammy dealt with Sandy til November, with him still lingering til March and than in April Lizzie was in the picture. So that is what? Three months of Tammy and Jonathan on there own.

I'm talking air time. Tammy was backburnered after the seduction until about the time it became clear that they were pairing Jonathan and Tammy. Tammy was hardly seen and a lot of the issues that were done quickly, but so was everything else with Kriezman's storylines. Follow through has been terrible on a lot of plots, not just Tammy and Jonathan. I also wish there had been more about Tammy moving out of her mother's and living with Sandy, Tammy doing more with the writing that she was doing, Tammy exploring her return to college more, and the way people treated her because she slept with her cousin.

But the non-wedding's end was to contrived for their not to be involvement on Jonathan's part. Sandy and Ava had signed divorce papers and Ava was genuinely shocked when Sandy was arrested. Jonathan had gotten Ava the lawyer and Jonathan was the only one who would benefit from calling off the wedding.

But using 'fate' as argument as to why Tammy ending up killing someone leaves a bad taste in my mouth. Something like fate puts them on a platform that Jonathan and Tammy aren't on. They aren't a fairy tale. I don't want to watch a show where the characters sweep everything under the rug. The real issues for Tammy and JOnathan end up being swept under the rug (the wedding/the seduction) in favor of dealing with ridiculous. I never understood why they went on and on about being cousins. It was necessary but jez they harped on that every chance they got.

I was referring to the typical soap opera car accident. If an upset Tammy caught Jonathan and Lizzie in bed together and got into a car accident and die then that would be tragic. I actually watched a little of Lizzie's PPD stuff today and, dunking from flames, rather enjoyed the PPD stuff. Soap villainess are notorious for faking illnesses and I'm okay with this. I found that more believable than Tammy and Jonathan kissing at the bar all the time. It's Jonathan's bar, don't his employees know that Tammy isn't his wife?

[Q Steph]

dc, even though I am a Jammy fan, I like the way you frame your arguments. They're rooted in solid truth.

I still believe this couple got the short end of the stick as have so many others couples before them. GL has suffered from a terminal malady of bipolar where the stories can be so rich and emotional but then become muddled in mockery and cliches.

[SpiritualJunkie]

Okay, gotcha...'cause I was referring to the Tammy/Jonathan stuff that happened before May/June 2005. It would have been interesting if those two had continued to be in the same storyline after the reveal but I think TPTB were also worried that people would immediately assume that they were trying to pair cousins and freak them out.

No, they didn't lead to any big plot points unless you look at the bigger picture and see that it contributed to creating trust between these two characters. What all these little scenes did was establish the type of relationship Tammy & Jonathan had. Tammy went from wanting nothing to do with Jonathan to becoming his friend.

Unfortunately, I wasn't watching GL pre-Jonathan so I can't compare Tammy before she met him to the way Tammy is now. Didn't Tammy have a crush on her psychotic Uncle Edmund, though? So Jonathan isn't the much of a stretch.

I gotta agree that the writing kinda went down the drain after the whole family found out about them. It got really good around Sandy's death and then took another dive when Tammy got a restraining order against Jonathan and Lizzie came into the picture.

Again, I completely agree. The only time they seemed to deal with Tammy's anger and resentment was when she was in scenes with Jonathan. Unless they were going for a "she suppresses her true feelings in front of everyone else" type thing..but really, it shouldn't be entirely up to an actor to fill in the lines. The aftermath could have been a lot darker now that I think about it and it's a shame that they didn't go down that route for a while (ie. a real suicide attempt by Tammy or...I'm even surprised they didn't go down the stripper/prostitution root since they hinted towards it at one point). Instead, they went with the cute but typical Tammy/Sandy romance and Jonathan was going around messing up everyone's lives and having mindless sex with Dinah.

No, the fate argument was about how Tammy & Sandy's marriage turned out to be invalid so that she could be with Jonathan. Tammy blamed Jonathan at first for Sandy's death and then realized that her own indecisions had played a huge part in it. Tammy did say once that she always knew that 'they' were going to happen..that's a belief in fate, I suppose. And I disagree about these two not being a fairytale...they really do resemble a "Beauty & the Beast" type story..which is probably the most unconservative of fairytales considering it's the Beast that imprisons the Beauty and tries to get her to love him. Logically, Tammy & Jonathan weren't supposed to happen but they did..and by happen, I mean them getting together even after the manipulations and lies Jonathan made with Tammy.

Oohh..kinda like a Maureen/Ed/Lillian scenario except not quite? This PPD stuff doesn't bother me so much, either mainly because Tammy figured out quite quickly that Lizzie was faking. Generally, though..these type of cliched stories that last for months and months are just annoying to watch.

Yeah, I was okay with all the stuff that happened before the end of 2005 but after that, the writing just became so mediocre. It's really unfortunate because so much more could have done with those two. They could have even scrapped the Sandy/Tammy/Jonathan triangle somewhat and had Tammy really deal with how guilty and wrong she felt about having feelings for Jonathan rather than this cliched "I'm in love with two guys and I don't want to hurt Sandy" crap.

[dc11786]

Thanks. I enjoy discussion with Spiritual Junkie because she always gives very intelligent counter points.

But it wasn't organic. It was plot point scene here. Plot point scene here. There were ways of establishing this relationship, the way that TPTB chose was just false. It didn't ring true with any of the established story at the time. With all the history the two had created in that brief period of time, there were other ways of accomplishing this.

Edmund wasn't crazy at the time, but yes Tammy had an attraction to Edmund. The worst thing that Edmund did during that time was give a mob boss, Vinnie Salerno, cigars to stay away from the San Cristobal Festival. Edmund wasn't Jonathan by any means. If you are referring to Edmund in terms of a bad guy who was know good, I don't think that's the same story. Edmund wasn't still doing terrible things, he was very fatherly towards Tammy. He was going over lines with her for "Romeo & Juliet" and stuff like that.

I love Sandy and Tammy, but I'll admit that the build (August-November) was better than the storyline. Tammy shouldn't have moved in with Sandy immediately or been his champion. Sandy betrayed her and that should have been resolved. Also, some of their first scenes were awkward. I remember a dance at J Farleys between Sandy and Tammy (when Sandy saved Tammy from Jonathan's low life friends) that was cringeworthy. Sandy needed Tammy's forgiveness, which was something that was glanced over.

Sandy should have had a role in helping Tammy rebuild her life before they got involved, allowing time for Jonathan to be paired with a female lead (either Lizzie or Marina) to build a nasty quadrangle between the characters. There was enough history between either of those two ladies to have made a storyline work without it being overly romantic or requiring partner swapping. I've always leaned towards Marina/Jonathan because it would have been a perfect way to have Shayne return freshly recast with the new lease of life he established in Marty West's final episodes.

I never cared for Jonathan and Dinah, but they had their fans. If the storyline involving Dinah's competition with Cassie to get pregnant was played differently, I think that a Jonathan-Dinah pairing could have played well into that storyline considering Edmund's role in Jonathan's upbringing.

That's not fate though that's Jonathan's meddling.

But in "Beauty & the Beast", Beauty sacrifices herself for her father. Jonathan sacrificed Tammy to hurt his mother. For me, it always goes back to the initial betrayal which was so poorly dealt with before engaging in a relationship. The soap didn't do a good enough job to explain away that betrayal. At least, not to me.

Yeah.

[SpiritualJunkie]

Aww, thanks. You also have really good, well thought out arguments as well.

Ehh..you got a point there. Although I think the fire wasn't a completely useless plot point. Tammy freaking out before realizing that Jonathan was trying to save her confirmed the fact that Tammy still had trust issues with Jonathan ("Your whole room's on fire and still I'm a threat?") and it also revealed that Jonathan did care what Tammy thought of him. I think that scene was more symbolic than anything.

About Edmund..did Tammy know at all about how bad he used to be?

And regarding Sandy/Tammy hooking up. I always thought it was funny how people were so icked out by Tammy/Jonathan being cousins who didn't grow up together while no one really blinked an eye towards Sandy/Tammy who were believed to be cousins for quite some time. I mean, Tammy was calling Sandy, "Cuz" and stuff like that so that's something that should definitely have been dealt with.

Yeah, I know. But Tammy thought it was fate...up until Jonathan admitted he was the one who called the cops on Sandy.

I was thinking more along the lines of the Beast being this awful person who can only be saved by love and he does this by imprisoning Beauty. The imprisonment isn't typical fairytale and definitely isn't what you'd call fate.

Until recently, I thought they had already done a good job of dealing with the betrayal. Jonathan's first ITL was good in having Jonathan face the magnitude of how horrible his actions had been. As for Tammy, I didn't think she needed anything obvious. Oh, wait...there was that barn scene where she told Jonathan she hated herself for wanting anything but stick a knife in his face and proceeded to let him know that she would always reject him and for months she did. And I always assumed that the way her character had been acting all that time was the way she dealt with the betrayal. She was afraid she'd get hurt again, she knew he was unstable, etc...but like I mentioned before, the whole thing was played in too much of a triangle angle where it was more about her being in love with two guys rather than not wanting to be in love with the guy who had hurt her so badly.

So now...I think they might fully deal with the betrayal a la Luke & Laura style waay later on...that is, if GL ever brings Jammy back. Maybe Tammy will hear about someone who was in a similar position as her which will flood her with memories and bring all the pain back. Maybe if Tammy/Jonathan ever have kids, one of them may find out about the ordeal and flip out at their father about it, question mom on why she ever decided to forgive dad for the crap he pulled, etc.