6 minutes ago, DRW50 said:

I do think Cynthia Watros finally got some wonderful chances as Nina. I know a lot of Nina fans hated what the show was doing with her, but I do wonder how they feel now.

This is what I'm talking about, though: A lot of those fans only cared that she has the big pairing with Sonny, even though that story never made long-term sense to me. (Or they liked her with creepy Valentin which, no.) And Nina spent those years getting shít on and humiliated by the rest of the show because Korte (or someone) was pissed she was with Sonny at all, and she isn't nearly as much now (though she's on a lot less post-PM). Why is she less mistreated? Because they moved her away from Sonny. But the stans don't seem to notice with their supposed 'supercouple' gone. Sonny and Nina had a loud but small fanbase for a very weak, inexplicable couple AFAIC.

I think the Quartermaine mansion being used as an active social hub again over the last few years is healthy and good for the show, as opposed to how much of a death zone it was in the 2000s under Guza II. Do I love that everyone on Earth's kids are there, no, but at least it feels central and vibrant to me.

1 minute ago, Liberty City said:

I'm all for moving on, because Sonny would never be held responsible in the way he should have... so I'm okay with us DNI'ing it.

Especially under these writers. You have a point. 

 

But they really should not have lost their momentum. 

Just now, Taoboi said:

Especially under these writers. You have a point. 

But they really should not have lost their momentum. 

lmao. Goes to show the momentum was Mulcahey and not the "historian" Korte. LMAO.

2 minutes ago, Jdee43 said:

Without nuance, the characters are either all ruined, or just cardboard cutouts. It seems like Mulcahey was the only writer working there that  got that. They really need to hire a new writer who can do strong character work; that weakness is so glaring.

The new writers have tried character stuff with Lucky and Sam's goodbye tour, but it all felt so hollow, boring, and paint by the numbers, with no fun, no life, no quirkiness.

I don't believe it's solely down to the writers. This is how Frank shows, or often just modern soaps, often are. Going back to Frank, if you go all the way back to his OLTL run, this is what you tend to get. He presided over the end of OLTL and even then the only hints of emotion were down to some of the longtime cast members, never, ever anything from him. He's just there to keep the budget under control and chop everything into bits. 

With that said, Lucky's return likely would have failed no matter what, as it already did under a regime that many would say is much better than this one.

9 minutes ago, Taoboi said:

Howso? If anything, Ava had clear direction again...even if it was leading to her death or a redemption tale under a writer who would know how to do one and still keep Ava's edge.

Too much time being spent with her clinging to Sonny and all the confusing stuff about the pills...it didn't feel as much about her having an edge as her likely being the scapegoat to help exonerate Sonny with the people of Port Charles after her probable death. I never believed any of the anti-Sonny stuff, whether under Mulcahey or not. I know how that game ends.

9 minutes ago, carolineg said:

To me the show feels directionless right now.  There is a lot going on, but I personally feel like nothing ever happens and when it does it's unsatisfying.  Most of the characters are just aimlessly moving along with no real motivations.  Lately, I have just been coming away from watching the show and thinking "well, that happened today" and little else.  It's not even enjoyable to make fun of lately.

It’s the problem of too many characters and not enough story to go around. My complaints last year were that the recurring folks were the story engines and the contract cast was just reacting for the most part. Now they are using more of the contract cast, but nobody has enough story to go around.

You can absolutely have this big a cast and still utilize most of them. That’s why you write an actual story, with beats to play. Romance stories help this tremendously! Not only does it help the show from being a slog to get through, but they spread out more story. Dates, bedroom scenes, etc.

3 minutes ago, DRW50 said:

I don't believe it's solely down to the writers. This is how Frank shows, or often just modern soaps, often are. Going back to Frank, if you go all the way back to his OLTL run, this is what you tend to get. He presided over the end of OLTL and even then the only hints of emotion were down to some of the longtime cast members, never, ever anything from him. He's just there to keep the budget under control and chop everything into bits.

I don't think the later years at OLTL, as rocky as they could get, were nearly as bland, confused and listless as this GH often is. There was a very clear voice and flavor amidst the chaos of those times which put a lot of rough stuff or good if flawed material over. I think the scheduling setup at OLTL was probably less spartan than it is today, and frankly I think some of those staff writers were more adept at dealing with it to infuse character even when things got real spotty in terms of the block taping merry-go-round (and they did, particularly with vet stuff). But it was never as slapdash as it got during some of the Cartini GH years or again over the last few years. The scenes are even shorter now, many of Frank's preferred characters/hires are far more colorless and bland than at OLTL or even early 2010s GH (and we both know there were plenty of lowlights in that crew, but still!) and that all contributes to the larger systemic issues.

I know you are eternally down on Lucky lol, but I don't think his return in 2009 would be classified as a failure for the character or actor. IIRC fans have always treated that time as JJ doing great work and the show letting him down with bad story, and (except for Liason stans) the audience has always wanted him back since. Lucky remains a fertile character IMO, it's how they're handling him that is as weak as any recent return. It is still so insane to me that Rena Sofer has been back for over a year - long an impossible dream - and still has no real story or pairing to speak of. The same principle with Lois applies to Lucky. It goes back to management and creative choices.

29 minutes ago, DRW50 said:

(I know Wally Kurth is still there - not a big fan, sorry)

I would take Kurt McKinney back in a heartbeat. Never going to happen though.

I was not a fan of the Q writing from about 2000- on. But I could still count on JI’s Edward to have a twinkle in his eye. And Jane and Stuart to be at each other’s throats but still have that underlying affection for each other. It’s like Valentini is allergic to joy, sparks, heat, anything watchable daily and long term. He wasn’t like this at OLTL.

7 minutes ago, titan1978 said:

I would take Kurt McKinney back in a heartbeat.

Hard pass!

7 minutes ago, titan1978 said:

It’s like Valentini is allergic to joy, sparks, heat, anything watchable daily and long term. He wasn’t like this at OLTL.

I think it's a pure survival mode he settled on once Ron was gone. FV has always been a chameleon EP who adjusts himself to whoever he was working with. He did his best to facilitate Malone II's attempt at more high style and concept episodes. He hated Dena Higley's work but wholeheartedly stood by her show in public and did nothing to mitigate the damage. But since RC exited I think he became the central creative, a la JFP at her shows pre-GH - I think it's now Frank driving the narrative, and thus the narrative often feels pretty bland and soulless. I think a lot of the joy at OLTL or early 2010s GH, for better or worse, came from RC - I have huge criticisms of Ron and do not want him HWing again, but I knew he did love the shows despite his own massive flaws and it came out in some of the work at that time. I think Frank can still deliver some very good special episodes, memorial tributes, etc. But day to day I think at this point FV is not interested in rocking the boat unless it's to push his latest acquisition or favorite people. it feels like an assembly line, not too far off from Y&R's utter lack of passion. It's not there yet, but it could be.

Edited November 16, 20241 yr by Vee

7 minutes ago, titan1978 said:

I would take Kurt McKinney back in a heartbeat. Never going to happen though.

I was not a fan of the Q writing from about 2000- on. But I could still count on JI’s Edward to have a twinkle in his eye. And Jane and Stuart to be at each other’s throats but still have that underlying affection for each other. It’s like Valentini is allergic to joy, sparks, heat, anything watchable daily and long term. He wasn’t like this at OLTL.

I think there's a throughline from his last OLTL years to here - namely the period where he decided to just triple down on the Fords and going back a bit before that where he did nothing to stop Ron's sickness as a writer. I guess you could say at least he was supporting a vision there, whereas he isn't here, but there is a gaping hole in both programs where any identity used to be. I have to assume Ron was the only one who had a "vision" and without him Frank has simply never cared. 

Frank never had much of a vision on his own to begin with at either OLTL or GH. He keeps things moving, but “visionary” is never going to be a word associated with him. 

29 minutes ago, Vee said:

I don't think the later years at OLTL, as rocky as they could get, were nearly as bland, confused and listless as this GH often is. There was a very clear voice and flavor amidst the chaos of those times which put a lot of rough stuff or good if flawed material over. I think the scheduling setup at OLTL was probably less spartan than it is today, and frankly I think some of those staff writers were more adept at dealing with it to infuse character even when things got real spotty in terms of the block taping merry-go-round (and they did, particularly with vet stuff). But it was never as slapdash as it got during some of the Cartini GH years or again over the last few years. The scenes are even shorter now, many of Frank's preferred characters/hires are far more colorless and bland than at OLTL or even early 2010s GH (and we both know there were plenty of lowlights in that crew, but still!) and that all contributes to the larger systemic issues.

I know you are eternally down on Lucky lol, but I don't think his return in 2009 would be classified as a failure for the character or actor. IIRC fans have always treated that time as JJ doing great work and the show letting him down with bad story, and (except for Liason stans) the audience has always wanted him back since. Lucky remains a fertile character IMO, it's how they're handling him that is as weak as any recent return. It is still so insane to me that Rena Sofer has been back for over a year - long an impossible dream - and still has no real story or pairing to speak of. The same principle with Lois applies to Lucky. It goes back to management and creative choices.

I remember praise for JJ's work (beyond criticism of the heavy crying), but less for the material, as so much was grotesque (telling Liz that the only time he loved her was when she was bleeding in the snow from a rape) and depressing. I would classify that as a failure and I felt like others did at the time (including JJ himself, to a point), but I shouldn't speak for anyone else. 

The main difference for me with Lois and Lucky is that I think Lois was a part of a very specific time and place on GH. Even by the time she left, she didn't really fit in (in my opinion). And most of what worked with the character for viewers was that early spark with Wally Kurth and that Lois was brash and fun. Even with Ned and Brooklyn still around, Lois had been gone so long and her era of the show was so distant of a memory, I don't think there was a huge hole in the canvas via her absence. 

That shouldn't have been the case with Lucky, in either of his returns. The first time he had his father there, this time his mother. Both times he had Liz. This time he has a son. And while Lois was a well-loved character, she was never a part of the long-term legacy of GH in a way that Lucky should have been. Yet neither of JJ's returns ever really has clicked, in my opinion. And I do wonder why. I could blame Frank and Guza, and I will, but I do wonder how much JJ is forever going to be that boy viewers remember hero worshipping Luke and getting into scrapes and letting Foster run riot.

Given how pointless Lois being back could have been, I have actually enjoyed Rena's return more than I expected, especially since I was never that into the character. She isn't getting what she should, but she does still somehow have a natural bond with Amanda Setton (in spite of how apathetic Setton is) and in the TARDIS-like Q mansion setup these days. (the stuff about her voice not so much but it wasn't anything horrible) There's a certain naturalness at forming bonds which still isn't there with Lucky. I think because there wasn't as much baggage over Lois' head, no history of her being a deadbeat or what have you, that just has to be awkwardly half-handled with Lucky.

46 minutes ago, Liberty City said:

lmao. Goes to show the momentum was Mulcahey and not the "historian" Korte. LMAO.

I don't really know if there was ever momentum (the ratings certainly didn't reflect it), but I do think most would give him credit over her. I've actually never seen anyone praise her, anywhere.

Edited November 16, 20241 yr by DRW50

7 minutes ago, BetterForgotten said:

Frank never had much of a vision on his own to begin with at either OLTL or GH. He keeps things moving, but “visionary” is never going to be a word associated with him. 

He's an capable (to a point) manager, facilitator and producer. Creatively he has no real taste that I can see, and it's shown once the show was left to his own devices.

I do think the Ford influx at OLTL was the start of his tastes, such as they are, really bleeding through (though the Ford story was Xeroxed for Trey at GH under Ron, and I think a fair amount of that was him too). More disposable white hunks or ingenues plus gets from other networks has often been FV's answer to a problem.

I think @Vee used the word passionless (sorry there has been a lot of replies since I last wrote lol) and that's how I feel.  It's not the worst soap by a longshot.  Days is ridiculous!  But at least Ron has passion-even if it's passion to hate his own soap job-and I can watch and laugh at how stupid it is and be angry the writer is such an idiot.  Plus, I know there will be a change in staff soon.  GH just leaves me feeling nothing these days.   Hopeless is too strong of a word, but I just think a lot could be done better and don't have any inkling anything is going to change so why bother?

49 minutes ago, Vee said:

I think the Quartermaine mansion being used as an active social hub again over the last few years is healthy and good for the show, as opposed to how much of a death zone it was in the 2000s under Guza II. Do I love that everyone on Earth's kids are there, no, but at least it feels central and vibrant to me.

I agree. I think if people are still missing the this is my house/I gave it to her era, what the place is now must seem alien. And it maybe doesn't have enough character. Still, I'm glad they have kept the mansion and enhanced its importance, and while Tracy is still there you can still see some of the depth of earlier years.

2 minutes ago, carolineg said:

GH just leaves me feeling nothing these days.   Hopeless is too strong of a word, but I just think a lot could be done better and don't have any inkling anything is going to change so why bother?

Again, I don't think it's as creatively dead as Y&R. There's levels to this lol. There's still spark and some enjoyable stuff here and there in the day to day. But it's so weighted down by all the bland characters and lame stories or plotting. There's a lot of great vets or possibility just suffocated by the same old names BTS.