Riot erupting in St. Louis after police shooting of Ferguson youth

[Vee]

It's worth mentioning that the men in charge on the ground among the people are now the Missouri National Guard, led by Ron Johnson. Those are the decent folks; they relieved the Ferguson and St. Louis city(?) PD yesterday morning.

The Ferguson PD, operating independently of them, did this [!@#$%^&*] today.

[Roman]

All I can say is......thank you.

[Roman]

You quoted MLK from 1961? Really? it's 2014. that man has been gone for 46 years. a favor....if you're going to make a point, come up to the here and now. and I was born and raised right here in Ferguson so beg mt pardon but you don't have one clue about this city.

[DRW50]

http://time.com/3136685/travyon-sybrina-fulton-ferguson/

[Roman]

And to add......the video of the convenience store is NOT MB. That video was taken in June of 2014, and the young man had on flip flops. Brown was wearing tennis shoes.

[marceline]

I keep hearing all kinds of stuff around that video. Some say it shows Brown paying. Others say the owner of the store didn't report a robbery which begs the question, how would the cops have known about it? Not just in regards to the events of 8/9 but after the fact when they went to the store owner and demanded the surveillance tape. If there was no report of the robbery, how did they know the surveillance tape existed? But if it's true, that the video is from June why the hell aren't the people who put it out not being relieved of their jobs?

[DRW50]

Pathetic.

http://talkingpointsmemo.com/livewire/ferguson-missouri-ron-johnson-gang-kappa-alpha-psi

[marceline]

A perfect example of the mindset. Two black guys do it so it must be gang related.

[Max]

Sorry for this much delayed response.

I'm just not ready to be certain of this officer's guilt at this point, even though it is possible and even though police brutality is an obvious problem. There have been conflicting accounts among witnesses, and witness testimony is often flawed to begin with. I hope the jury is half black and half white, because otherwise the losing side will never accept the verdict.

http://www.nytimes.com/2014/08/20/us/shooting-accounts-differ-as-holder-schedules-visit.html?_r=0

The best solution to avoid having to rely upon flawed witness testimony would be to have police officers wear cameras. (This was proposed by Joe Scarborough.)

People say that they would like to see substantially more black police officers. That would be great if that could happen, but I think it could be very difficult to accomplish for two reasons. First, the mistrust between the cops and African-Americans probably makes many in the latter group reluctant to join the police force. Second, the poor education the impoverished receive (along with the temptations to join the gang culture) does not prepare many black youth with the tools they need to pass the police exam. You mentioned the problem of poverty, but the sad fact is that it will always exist in any society whether capitalist, socialist, or communist. I personally don't believe that a massive anti-poverty program on the part of the government would solve the problem, because after billions was spent in the "War on Poverty" since the 1960s, the percentage of those living in poverty was the same in 2011 as it was in 1965 (about 15 percent).

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/War_on_Poverty#mediaviewer/File:Number_in_Poverty_and_Poverty_Rate_1959_to_2011._United_States..PNG

I understand your frustration with the way blacks are characterized as behaved badly, but I don't see being subjected to disgusting stereotypes as something that is unique to African-Americans. Jews have to deal with being characterized as greedy, "Rednecks" are called racist and stupid, Hispanics are told they want to smuggle their illegal alien relatives into the country, and Muslims are called terrorist sympathizers or worse. It sucks.

[Eric83]

The treatment of African Americans in this country goes much deeper than some ignorant stereotypes. Trying to equate it to Jews supposedly loving money or rednecks supposedly being stupid is laughable.

[Max]

I wasn't trying to equate the experiences of blacks to those that other groups have in this country. I was talking about unfair stereotypes, because Wales mentioned an unfair stereotype about African Americans.

I understand that America has a dark racial history, but other countries have treated certain minorities even worse that America has treated blacks. The way Germany has treated the Jews is the most famous instance, and it seems as if the number of Jews who blame their problems on the Holocaust pales in comparison to the number of African Americans who blame slavery, Jim Crow, and and/or institutionalized racism for their problems. (In keeping with my earlier point, so as to never stereotype people, I certainly don't notice a large number of blacks who do this, but it seems as if a vocal minority chose to do so, and then use it as an excuse to riot.)

[Max]

I am sorry that your town is in such a chaotic state. Just as unfortunate is that (by all accounts) the chaos seems to be caused by residents who do not live in Ferguson.

I find your criticism--about my not knowing what I'm talking about since I don't live in Ferguson--to be rather odd and hypocritical coming from you, since you have said many times that you believe my opposition to the president is based solely on his race. Given that you have never met me or psychoanalyzed me (much as I have never been to Ferguson), you really have no right to think of yourself an expert on my cognitive processes while telling me I have no right to comment on the current racial unrest.

And on another point regarding hypocrisy, if you're going to imply that those who were not born and raised in Ferguson "don't have one clue about this city," then why aren't you challenging just about everyone on this thread on this point (since it's highly likely that few others here would be born and raised in that city)?

I can at least understand you being upset about the King quote, albeit not for the reason that you gave. Unfortunately, the chaos that is occurring--on both the part of the rioters and the police--is highly reminiscent of a scene from the 1960's, so a quote from that time seems perfectly relevant to me. And if anything, certain bad apples in the black community had a lot more reason to be angry in the 60's (thereby possibly contributing to black crime) than they do today.

If you were upset that a conservative quoted King, then I get your anger. But people often quote or give examples of members of the other party/ideology when making their points, and I was glad that Dr. King said what he said. Liberals often quote or cite GOP figures such as Goldwater, Eisenhower, Reagan, Bush I, and even Nixon and Bush II as examples at how "reasonable" the GOP used to be compared to the "extreme" party of today. (To be fair to you, I do not recall you doing this.) So if you are upset at me for using a liberal icon to support a point I wanted to make, I would hope you would be equally upset at liberals who quote conservatives when it benefits them.

[Wales2004]

My earlier comments were in response to the author of the "good article." While I find the whole situation tragic and frustrating (due to the lack of transparency on that part of the police), I did not express any opinion of guilt or innocence on the part of the police officer. It's a tragedy regardless. And it's still disturbing. The LAPD were a part of my life experiences so I know that what's black and white can really be fuzzy.

I'm not of the opinion that more black anything automatically makes things better for black people. Some black people treat other black people quite terribly. I don't even get that whole harmonious black people myth any more than I'd get one about white people being on the same page. History has shown all that to be false. If anything, it illustrates how behind people are in being able to see black people as human beings. Africa is this great big continent from which black people are said to have originated (or all mankind depending on the teller), and they don't all get along. There are even ethnic groups within nations that don't get along.

I will stay away from your thoughts on why "African-Americans" (a term I find useless especially when people constantly use it interchangeably with black as though equivalent) are lacking on certain police forces. I think that falls into the area of lumping a bunch of people togerher as single-minded. Are you certain they are all thinking the same way? If so, how do any of them make it onto the police force at all?

I have no illusions about poverty. Some people will be poor no matter how much money is given to them. I'm sure there are million dollar plus lottery winners who have ended up worse off than before they won. Therein lies one of the major flaws in America's race discussion. People might look at Oprah Winfrey, for instance, as exceptional for a black person because she overcame the odds and went against the grain of the "typical black person." A white Oprah would just be typical of those individuals who are motivated and determined enough to achieve their goals.

The final part of your response regarding stereotypes might be more tricky to navigate. You're right in that they are not unique to any specific group of people.

Stereotypes in and of themselves are not necessarily problematic and can be played for laughs at a comedy club or in private conversations. Reactions may vary. Some are offended and some are not and may even perpetuate certain stereotypes about themselves. The movie "Crash" depicts a carjacking scene like that.

What is believed about black people is the actual problem. Once it's stuck in your head that black people are lazy, stupid, ignorant, violent, etc. then you generally cannot easily reverse the feelings that come from that belief. Any black person who does not fit that mold becomes the exception and even if you manage to be ultra liberal, the belief just gets buried a little deeper. I have a friend who believes something negative about every group of people she's encountered in her life. When challenged she swears that every one of these negative traits is factual. She's not malicious just stuck. I never want to be stuck like that so I make an effort not to be.

[marceline]

I finally made a conscious decision to stop using the term African-American after "12 Years a Slave." I got sick of watching Chiwetel Ejiofor and Lupita N'yongo described as African-Americans. They aren't. They're black and British.

[alphanguy74]

Just for a little levity:

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