Members Khan Posted December 18, 2011 Members Share Posted December 18, 2011 Perhaps I need to rethink how Bill Bell regarded his African-American characters throughout the '80's and '90's. I've always felt the treatment to be condescending and offensive, but if others think that isn't so, then maybe I'm just being touchy for no reason. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Members DRW50 Posted December 18, 2011 Members Share Posted December 18, 2011 I don't think you're being touchy, I think you have valid points. I think that generally the characters seemed stereotypical on the surface but underneath became much more interesting, and human. I didn't really appreciate that until the writing began to deteriorate so much for the black characters. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Members Chris B Posted December 18, 2011 Members Share Posted December 18, 2011 Khan, I do see where you're coming from. I wouldn't say offensive, but dated I'd agree, but in general his style was very old fashioned. I think with every character regardless of race, Bell did try to go beyond what was on paper. Drucilla or Nathan on paper may sound bad, but he went so much further. With Nathan it was a journey. Perhaps it was easier for the audience to accept him as illiterate at first, but they did accept him and he became a major part of Y&R history. Then Mamie was always a major part of the Abbott family and I believe Bell wanted her to be so much more, but wasn't allowed to go as far as he wanted. I still hate John and Mamie never got to capitalize on the chemistry Veronica Redd and Jerry Douglas had. As for Tyrone, Jazz, etc. I think that was a produce of the time. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Members Y&RWorldTurner Posted December 18, 2011 Members Share Posted December 18, 2011 To be fair, whatever stereotype someone might have seen with Dru's initial entrance and stories, you had Olivia as the complete contrast to that. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Members DeeeDee Posted December 18, 2011 Members Share Posted December 18, 2011 And Amy before Olivia. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Members Vee Posted December 18, 2011 Members Share Posted December 18, 2011 Oh, lord. No. Everyone who knows me knows that I think what happened to Ellen Holly at ABC, particularly in the late 70s and 80s, was a crime and a horrible error that should have been rectified long ago. I hate that it never was and never will be. But that website just looks embarrassing and I think she's out of line on Nixon. Old Agnes Nixon still breaks into tears out of nowhere when she retells the Carla story on-camera. Maybe she looked out for the bottom line, maybe she was a savvy businesswoman, but I'll never believe she didn't care about the character, or the actress or the storyline. I thought it was a pity when Holly took Erika Slezak way out of context many years ago, and I think this is even more of a shame. I think she should've been done better by, I wish OLTL had fixed it, but I simply don't agree with her here at all. And by the way, there is absolutely no comparison to be made between what happened to Ellen Holly and Lillian Hayman, and Renee Elise Goldsberry leaving the show after a contract negotiation collapsed. She was a frontburner actress (with major airtime Ellen Holly could not have begged for, borrowed or stolen) who left the show when they couldn't come to terms financially, just like a slew of other actors and actresses before her. I don't think Renee herself would ever dare make such a ludicrous parallel, but the fans that do it are absolutely nuts. It's offensive and laughable on its face because it trivializes what happened to Holly and Hayman. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Members John Posted December 18, 2011 Members Share Posted December 18, 2011 Thank U Vee, ITA Ellen Was The victim of racism but not by Erika or Agnes. It was ABC & Paul Rauch for the way she was fired. That shoulda been fixed. I kinda hoped when Jared Hall came to Llanview in 2000, Carla would too. Ed did for a day. To Compare Ellen to REG makes no weight. REG was in talks and they put Vangie in a coma. when the talks broke down, Vangie stayed in the coma. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Members SFK Posted December 18, 2011 Members Share Posted December 18, 2011 Jared Hall, Josh's son. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Members Vee Posted December 18, 2011 Members Share Posted December 18, 2011 Yeah, Hillary B. Smith also did the contract coma under Dena Higley, and they came a hair's breadth away from killing Nora's ass off. Had they done so, I would have stopped watching the show and never looked back. The Hall grandson was named Jared, played by Herve Clermont. He was not a great actor, but they tried him out with Ellen Bethea's Rachel during the spring and summer of 2000 (on an interesting sidenote, Ellen B. once played the same role Holly played onstage in Funnyhouse of a Negro). I thought the character had potential but the actor was dreadful and JFP clearly was not serious about him or any black characters. I also had a hard time following how Josh Hall, who grew up on the show, could've fathered this 20something ADA. I do think EH was likely undervalued contract-wise and that it's very possible that Agnes and her company did lowball her. But I don't think the image of Agnes that Holly has created on her site matches the reality. I think reality is somewhere in-between several points of view, neither totally flattering nor the antagonist built in her head. I'm actually more saddened that it is this raw for her still to the point of making that ghastly looking website. I thought there might have been some thawing since she'd done Agnes' Intimate Portrait on Lifetime some years ago. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Members DRW50 Posted December 18, 2011 Members Share Posted December 18, 2011 I would imagine that the show ending might be enough of a jolt to start this up again, especially since no one seems to have contacted her about her view on the end of OLTL or OLTL's legacy. I do agree with you about Agnes. It's difficult, because it's easy to deify Nixon or make her into someone she's not, when none of us actually know the woman, but I don't believe she knowingly swindled Ellen Holly, or tried to degrade her. You could say she was neglectful. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Members Ryan Chamberlain Posted December 18, 2011 Members Share Posted December 18, 2011 I do think what they did to EH was crazy. Sick, and crazy. No reason why that kind of stuff is going on. But, it is. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Members Paul Raven Posted December 18, 2011 Members Share Posted December 18, 2011 This whole topic gets us thinking about where we stand and that is a good thing. Regarding Ellen's seemingly naive take on the contract issue,hindsight is a wonderful thing.Many of us look back on a situation in our personal and working lives and think that we should have done things differently or taken a stand,but when you are in the midst of things,sometimes it's not so cut and dried. Remember this was late 60's/early 70's and Ellen may have not had a great support system around her at the show.Not to say that other folk weren't friendly and caring,but had their own issues to deal with regarding contracts,working conditions etc.She was one of only a handful of blacks onscreen and behind the scenes and unless the majority are actively looking out for you,then effecting change isn't easy. Agnes got Micki Grant on AW and I think was also writing GL when James Earl Jones and Cicely Tyson were cast so credit to her.But maybe in the overall scheme,she thought getting those faces on TV in the mid 60's was a big enough achievement. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Members John Posted December 18, 2011 Members Share Posted December 18, 2011 Ellen Holly On Agnes Nixon In 1999 <iframe width="420" height="315" src="http://www.youtube.com/embed/TI87aXLq2mw" frameborder="0" allowfullscreen></iframe> Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Members Vee Posted December 18, 2011 Members Share Posted December 18, 2011 Irritating, but I'm pretty sure a lot of the footage they show of Ellen with "Price Trainor" is actually from the Jack Scott storyline in the late '70s, which Holly disliked. Or rather, she was quite unhappy with Arthur Burghardt; my copy of One Life is in a box somewhere, but I believe Morgan Freeman actually auditioned for the part. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Members John Posted December 18, 2011 Members Share Posted December 18, 2011 Yeah she wanted Morgan to get that role. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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