Members R Sinclair Posted December 18, 2011 Members Share Posted December 18, 2011 I think anyone looking at this through the lens of post-1970s America really shouldn't judge Ellen Holly. She is 80+ years old. She was let go from the show in the mid 1980s at 54 years old... which means she had experienced DECADES of improper behavior from employers due strictly to her ethnicity. That is where she's coming from with this. She has a wealth of history and experience that none of us have -- especially those of us who are other than black -- therefore I think it's really ridiculous to say "She should quit being bitter," or "I 'agree with her' about this, but..." NO! The bottom, irrefutable line is... Ellen Holly (her hiring and firing) paved the way for other black actors on soap operas. Also, with her being a woman of a certain age at a certain time, she has a perspective that we DON'T considering we're living in the age that she helped to create. One of awareness when it comes to minorities in theater and television. There would've been no Phylicia Rashad if it wasn't for an Ellen Holly. There would've been no Nia Long if it wasn't for an Ellen Holly. There would've been no Debbi Morgan if it wasn't for an Ellen Holly. So, to have Ellen Holly recognize the fact that she IS Ellen Holly (the first prominent black actress to drive storyline in a predominantly white medium) and wasn't given the proper due for being such, I feel, shouldn't be talked about as if she's just some bitter black woman mad at the sweet, docile, innocent white woman. I have no doubt in my mind, with her being IRNA PHILLIPS' PROTEGE, that this woman knew what was going on. How do you run a company and head up two of your own personal dramatic creations, yet have no clue what's going on with them? If she's getting information mailed to her via "cc" and she chooses not to read it, it's all on her. Oprah's come up in this conversation. Do you think that decisions under Oprah's name and/or Harpo are made without her being told? Oprah didn't become Oprah just because she wore loud colors and was fat. She became "Oprah" because she paid attention to her image, to what was being passed by her desk. At one time, Oprah SIGNED EACH AND EVERY PAYCHECK for Harpo employees. I'm sure she's since passed that duty on to someone else, however, if it has to do with her company, I doubt she just skims through stuff and/or is not brought up to speed about what's going on. If Agnes Nixon really was this deeply involved in Carla and Ellen Holly, I doubt that it would be years later that she realized this was going on. Especially if she was still a part of ABC management. So either this woman is a shoddy businesswoman, or she has a stronger grasp of the bottom line and what it takes to make it profitable than we realize. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Members SFK Posted December 18, 2011 Members Share Posted December 18, 2011 I believe that lost OLTL footage was in fact discovered by EH as she talks about in her book. It was promo material that was unearthed at some affiliate. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Members John Posted December 18, 2011 Members Share Posted December 18, 2011 Once ABC Bought The shows in 1973 Agnes no longer signed any checks. I cant believe after one claim which is refuted IMHO if u take the time to watch the clip I provided, I cant believe people now paint Agnes as EVIL. Ellen experienced Racism? Yes. By Agnes Nixon? NO!!! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Members Vee Posted December 18, 2011 Members Share Posted December 18, 2011 I don't think Agnes is some sweet old saint. But I do think the reality's probably a little more complicated than Holly is giving it credit for. I've seen too much of Agnes discussing this storyline over the years to believe it was a cynical ploy, and I do believe she genuinely cared. I also believe she was a very smart businesswoman and chose her battles. I can't condemn her for that now, some thirty years on, anymore than I can go back to that tired-ass well people always go to of "AGNES ABANDONED OLTL FOR AMC!!!!" Yes, AMC was her priority; yes, Agnes had several priorities and gut checks. Maybe many things could have been done differently. And I don't think Holly should've been lowballed as she apparently was. But I also think the harsh realities of the business, and of how Agnes was able to create a daytime empire, would always have been there to be accounted for in one way or another. She made those choices, and I think, for the most part, she did well. For me to start hammering on now - a month before the show goes off the air - about some sort of ideological purity test for when Agnes created these shows in the '60s and got Holly onscreen in a major storyline in 1968, defying Southern affiliates, seems like a pointless exercise in masturbation. Yeah, it's wrong if she was shortchanged on her contract. It's wrong that she wasn't taken care of as much as she could've been. It's very wrong how Ellen Holly was ejected from the show. And Agnes probably could have done more. But did she care about the character, did Holly's presence on the show mean a great deal to her, is she still moved to tears about it? Yes. People are not black and white, they're human. They're contradictory, they're flawed, they're wonderful and at times hypocritical. Agnes Nixon is no different. So I can't condemn her. And while I think Holly was wronged and has a right to her voice, which she utilized so wonderfully in her book, I just think that website is little more than a strange, sad recursive loop of anger and bitterness. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Members Y&RWorldTurner Posted December 18, 2011 Members Share Posted December 18, 2011 Were you there to know who Ellen experienced racism from? The clip you provided proves nothing, that was 1999, this is now. People can come to many different interpretations in hindsight. Again, it's impossible that Nixon didn't know what was going on, especially given the clout she had at ABC Daytime in the 70's and 80's. Does this mean Nixon is a racist who used her black actors to her advantage and then tossed them aside when the job was done? Not necessarily. But do I believe she could have done more to protect the characters and actors she supposedly cared so much about? Hell yeah. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Members juppiter Posted December 18, 2011 Members Share Posted December 18, 2011 The story that we have been quoted over and over about how Agnes provided the first black leading role in daytime history is refuted by Ellen Holly in this. Agnes herself has taken pride for this over & over again so I do think it unearths something about Agnes. Do I think it was intentional on Agnes' end? Probably not. Does it suck that the white girl Susan Lucci could become a star while the black Ellen Holly gets lip service but did not? Yeah, it does IMO. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Members John Posted December 18, 2011 Members Share Posted December 18, 2011 Very Cool facts about Al Freeman Jr's run as Ed on OLTL Freeman has made appearances in many films, such as My Sweet Charlie, Finian's Rainbow, and Malcolm X, and television series such asThe Cosby Show, Law & Order, Homicide: Life on the Street and The Edge of Night. He is mostly recognized for his portrayal of Police Captain Ed Hall on the ABC soap opera, One Life to Live, a role he played from 1972 through 1985, with recurring roles in 1988 and 2000. He won a Daytime Emmy Award for Outstanding Lead Actor in a Drama Series for that role, the first African-American actor to be so honored. He left the show briefly to appear in the network's controversial sitcom Hot L Baltimore. During that period, "Ed" was played by another actor,Arthur Pendleton. He was also a director of One Life to Live, and was one of the first, if not the first, African-Americans to direct a soap opera. Source: Wikipedia Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Members Cheap21 Posted December 18, 2011 Author Members Share Posted December 18, 2011 Anyone have the clip where John, Mamie and Jill are in the same room and John tries to excuse Manie "so I can talk to my, my...." Mamie "you mean the bitch?" I LOVED that line Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Members Khan Posted December 18, 2011 Members Share Posted December 18, 2011 And the church says, "Amen!". Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Members Khan Posted December 18, 2011 Members Share Posted December 18, 2011 Same here. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Members Khan Posted December 18, 2011 Members Share Posted December 18, 2011 At best, and at worst, Agnes Nixon looks like a bad businesswoman in this exchange -- which shouldn't be too surprising when you look at what happened to her shows overall once she sold them to the network. (I mean, say what you will about Bill Bell, or about Y&R and B&B's current states, but the fact that his shows have survived but hers haven't is a testament to Bell's ability never to yield to network pressure, something which AN, or Bell's successors at Y&R, weren't and aren't able to accomplish.) Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Members SFK Posted December 18, 2011 Members Share Posted December 18, 2011 Larry Fishburne wasn't the only Joshua, right? Wasn't the role recast. I'm not sure if he left OLTL to do Apocalypse Now or if that was unrelated on his career timeline. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Members SFK Posted December 18, 2011 Members Share Posted December 18, 2011 Do we know the story on how Agnes came to sell the shows to ABC? If it's covered in her Archive interview and I'm just forgetting, let me know and I'll go check it out. But I wonder to what degree was she strong-armed into the decision, if her choice to do so was purely financial, and what perks came with the sale. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Members Vee Posted December 18, 2011 Members Share Posted December 18, 2011 I think he did leave OLTL to do Apocalypse Now. There were at least two or three Joshes. He was part of the teen scene with Cassie and Rob Coronal, Dan Wolek, and the O'Neill girls at one point, I believe. I think he became a paramedic or something. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Members John Posted December 18, 2011 Members Share Posted December 18, 2011 There was a Josh in 85-86 I believe I think ABC may have told Agnes they didnt want to air shows they didnt own. Thats the crap they gave Claire Labine about RH after she made that show a hit Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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