2 minutes ago, Vee said:

I think the Victor/Sloan dreams or visions (there are a couple) actually start before Sloan dies, somewhere in fall '94, but don't quote me.

That would make sense. The one I was thinking of I remembered as close to her breaking point.

30 minutes ago, DRW50 said:

Welcome @sunvsbanner so nice to see a new poster here, and with such clear thoughts and a fun OLTL-themed username.

The Victor and Sloan scene will pop up in early 1995, I think.

Bo was with Gabrielle in 2002.

1989 was definitely a world away from what is to come. I was watching part of an episode where Cord was back from the airport as Sarah and Viki had been kidnapped and he was talking with some blonde lady with iron pressed hair. It may have been Spring Skye. They all looked alike under Rauch.

Thank you for the welcome and the kind words!! I love anything to do with the newspapers and wish more had been done with them in the show's final years.

So far I've seen just a little of early 1989, and it's been fascinating. Not that all the stories are landing for me, but the whole vibe of the show is so different from what I'm used to, featuring so many characters that I know are going to vanish from the canvas in anything from a few months to a couple of years. And what's frustrating is that I would have kept quite a few of them and am sorry they're going to be leaving.

Actually, I've got a copy of that oral history of OLTL book that was published maybe a decade ago? that your post is reminding me I should probably be reading as I'm watching, because I know very little in terms of concrete details about the Rauch years, except that I understand he was divisive.

21 minutes ago, Vee said:

I think the Victor/Sloan dreams or visions (there are a couple) actually start before Sloan dies, somewhere in fall '94, but don't quote me.

Always nice to see a new intelligent face.

Thank you!!

Regarding the visions, my skin is already crawling. I haven't watched fall 1994 yet.

Has Malone or ES or anyone said when they landed on eventually revealing that Victor raping Viki was the cause of the DID? That is, would they already have been planning to go there as they were setting up Viki leaving Clint for Sloan?

Just now, sunvsbanner said:

Has Malone or ES or anyone said when they landed on eventually revealing that Victor raping Viki was the cause of the DID? That is, would they already have been planning to go there as they were setting up Viki leaving Clint for Sloan?

There's discussion of the DID story in both period interviews and the oral history. I think the reveal was always intended to be a part of it from maybe '93 onward. Maybe even earlier when Sloan first arrived writing about Victor Lord, but I don't know. He was supposed to be killed off or written out roughly a year before he actually was, but BTS circumstances (Clint Ritchie's farming accident) changed that. Hilariously Linda Gottlieb in the oral history says she went to Agnes Nixon for her blessing on the story and discussed it at length with her, followed by a quote from Agnes: "What? I never met Linda Gottlieb." Who knows what's true there.

I don't know if they always knew of the Victor allusion with Sloan. I do know the original endgame was Viki and Clint reuniting, but that didn't happen. I thought they handled the similarities between Sloan and her father fairly elegantly in some later scenes in '95 or '96 when Viki was recovering from the situation and went over all of it, without running down Sloan too much. But I haven't seen those scenes in awhile.

The OLTL oral history is very worthwhile. It does somewhat glide over some eras the author by his own admission wasn't an avid viewer for (1998-2007) and there's some well-known dirt on Rauch that doesn't make it in. There's also some fog of war from the actors here and there, some facts and info get fuzzy. The late Thom Christopher repeatedly credits Rauch for putting him and Tonja Walker together as Carlo and Alex, but only Gottlieb and Michael Malone did that. But it's a very good, very candid read.

Edited March 30Mar 30 by Vee

56 minutes ago, Vee said:

Hilariously Linda Gottlieb in the oral history says she went to Agnes Nixon for her blessing on the story and discussed it at length with her, followed by a quote from Agnes: "What? I never met Linda Gottlieb." Who knows what's true there.

Of course, I'm biased. I don't like the Gottlieb/Malone era AT ALL, and I don't think Linda Gottlieb was good for OLTL in the long or short run. So, I tend to believe Agnes (even with the acknowledgment that, yes, she did have memory issues in her later years). But, like I said, I'm biased, lol.

13 hours ago, Vee said:

There's discussion of the DID story in both period interviews and the oral history. I think the reveal was always intended to be a part of it from maybe '93 onward. Maybe even earlier when Sloan first arrived writing about Victor Lord, but I don't know. He was supposed to be killed off or written out roughly a year before he actually was, but BTS circumstances (Clint Ritchie's farming accident) changed that. Hilariously Linda Gottlieb in the oral history says she went to Agnes Nixon for her blessing on the story and discussed it at length with her, followed by a quote from Agnes: "What? I never met Linda Gottlieb." Who knows what's true there.

Thank you! I did know CR's farming accident affected things...I think I may have read that here lurking in this thread at some point. I'd usually come here to try to see if anyone was commenting on something I was watching at the time; I finally made an account to keep better track.

Now I'm wondering if CR's accident pushed back the DID story as well. Though it's really hard to imagine Viki's alters not happening amidst everything else that was going on in 1995 (David/Tina, Todd, Joey/Dorian). Those threads were perfectly set up, and it's one of the few periods of the show I've watched where I feel like you could drop a non-soap watcher in right in the middle and have them hooked by the mystery and horror of it.

I'd like to believe Linda Gottlieb did go and talk to Agnes Nixon about it, but, like you said, who knows.

13 hours ago, Vee said:

The OLTL oral history is very worthwhile. It does somewhat glide over some eras the author by his own admission wasn't an avid viewer for (1998-2007) and there's some well-known dirt on Rauch that doesn't make it in. There's also some fog of war from the actors here and there, some facts and info get fuzzy. The late Thom Christopher repeatedly credits Rauch for putting him and Tonja Walker together as Carlo and Alex, but only Gottlieb and Michael Malone did that. But it's a very good, very candid read.

I've only read pieces relevant to what I was watching or already familiar with at the time. I need to sit down and read the whole thing. Even if actors or others behind the scenes mess up the details, sometimes the way they mess them up is telling.

Edited March 30Mar 30 by sunvsbanner

1 minute ago, sunvsbanner said:

Now I'm wondering if CR's accident pushed back the DID story as well.

I believe it did. I think Gottlieb and co. have said it was meant to culminate and Sloan to die much earlier. They knew the larger story they were doing at least by '93. Robin Strasser has credited herself for going to Erika, talking about the roots of DID lying in abuse, and then claims they went as a duo to Michael Malone to pitch the Victor reveal, which Robin later regretted because she felt it was best that Dorian be the one who killed Victor. Robin was back in early '93, so assuming she's accurate and not getting her facts fuzzy (which can happen) the timeline would be then.

You can see hints of the story as early as summer '93 at least, IMO. In the 25th anniversary episodes in July, in order to save C.J. and Al they have to tear down the walls to re-access Victor's secret room, hidden for many years since the '80s (which will then figure into the DID story in 1995). Viki has an intense, visceral and almost terrified reaction to this which seems too much (and which mirrors how she reacts when Dorian lays everything out for her in early '95). I think that was one of the first pennies to drop.

And yeah, as a kid who grew up watching Dark Shadows on the Sci-Fi Channel at the same time as I was watching OLTL in the '90s there were a lot of gothic similarities. The fact that the Viki/Dorian story stretched back 20+ years fascinated me and was a big part of what had me hooked on the show.

Edited March 30Mar 30 by Vee

All this talk inspired me to start watching full episodes so I randomly started in March 1993.

I know @Maxim doesn't care for the Alex and Mortimer story, but I love it! I didn't think I would. I actually want to go backwards after I finish 1993 to watch it from the start lol.
I don't think I've ever really seen Carlo his first time around, but I've seen him in 1996 and don't care for him or that story. But Mortimer is cute and him and Renee are really sweet.

I obviously love the Bo and Nora story so I'll just skip over that. EXCEPT to say that when Bo kisses Nora at Sarah's grave (great scenes!), Sarah's grave states she was born in 1965. That would make her 26 or 27 at the time of her death, and Bo being 43/44. I can't. Every time I see clips of Bo and Sarah (either one), he looks like her father😩 The show could have at least aged her up to be early 30s to make it not so weird.

I actually love Clint with Lindsay, and I'm going to be sorry when it's scrapped because of Ritchie's accident. Viki with Sloane makes me hate her. She doesn't recover for me until the DID starts.

Kevin and Rachel are adorable, and Hank is much better with more of an edge than when they just make him Bo's sidekick in the future. Also, I prefer Bo being a businessman over police commisioner.

i like Marty, Andrew, and Cassie. Marty was so intriguing when she was troubled. Very sad to think of how boring she becomes once her main arc wraps up.

Dorian and Jason are top notch. Why oh why couldn't Jason have stayed long term instead of Todd? I even like him with Lee Ann. He's good with anyone.

The eye rolling (fast forwarding) scenes are Cain and Tina. I used to like them together for some reason. Maybe I just thought they were pretty. The back and forth with them is really annoying. Cord is fine except I find myself laughing when he gets angry, which is pretty much every scene. I know the story gets better once Angela comes in, so hopefully it isn't much longer til she appears.

Oh, and Max and Luna: no thanks. Sorry, but James Depaiva should have left the show once Luna was gone like he kept threatening to. It's really amazing he stayed as long as he did without any real family connections to the show? They gave him a brother and sister for a bit and then they ignored his kids for years. WHY WAS HE STILL ON THE SHOW. Can you tell I don't like Max??

Finally, Asa is my favourite but has only showed up in a couple episodes so far. He always steals every scene. When CJ runs away, Asa tells Renee a hilarious tidbit how he left both Clint and Bo alone at the age of 12 in the desert to find their way home😆😆

On 3/26/2026 at 8:30 AM, DRW50 said:

@Maxim I'd forgotten about this meme (which I just saw again recently) - something else Elaine became famous for. You will see why about 15 seconds in.

Whoooooooooooooooooooooo cares!

HAHAHAHAHHAHAH.

Thank you for this. I've had some of the most stressful weeks of my life (work related), so coming back here and seeing this FIRST was such a BLAST.

On 4/3/2026 at 6:46 AM, mar4331 said:

All this talk inspired me to start watching full episodes so I randomly started in March 1993.

Aaaaaaaaaaaaah. I'm so happy you've joined into the viewing experience. ❤️ Sorry for seeing this so late, but I've been away from social media and forums for a few weeks.

On 4/3/2026 at 6:46 AM, mar4331 said:

I actually love Clint with Lindsay, and I'm going to be sorry when it's scrapped because of Ritchie's accident. Viki with Sloane makes me hate her. She doesn't recover for me until the DID starts.

AMEN about that - she could have been such a great rival to Viki. I honestly thought she would be on for just a few weeks, didn't expect her to still be here months later.

On 4/3/2026 at 6:46 AM, mar4331 said:

Oh, and Max and Luna: no thanks. Sorry, but James Depaiva should have left the show once Luna was gone like he kept threatening to. It's really amazing he stayed as long as he did without any real family connections to the show? They gave him a brother and sister for a bit and then they ignored his kids for years. WHY WAS HE STILL ON THE SHOW. Can you tell I don't like Max??

I don't like him either. And I especially don't like him with Luna. With Blair... it had more blood in it. With Luna it's just like he is parked in a safe space... and that's it.

On 4/3/2026 at 6:46 AM, mar4331 said:

When CJ runs away, Asa tells Renee a hilarious tidbit how he left both Clint and Bo alone at the age of 12 in the desert to find their way home😆😆

Ahahahhaha.

On 3/30/2026 at 9:09 AM, Vee said:

I believe it did. I think Gottlieb and co. have said it was meant to culminate and Sloan to die much earlier. They knew the larger story they were doing at least by '93. Robin Strasser has credited herself for going to Erika, talking about the roots of DID lying in abuse, and then claims they went as a duo to Michael Malone to pitch the Victor reveal, which Robin later regretted because she felt it was best that Dorian be the one who killed Victor. Robin was back in early '93, so assuming she's accurate and not getting her facts fuzzy (which can happen) the timeline would be then.

Thank you -- I wonder then what, if any, other story threads might have been planned to take place around the earlier/originally planned version of the DID, or if it was going to be a more contained story than what we got later, which may well have been at least part coincidence...at least as far as the Todd angle, which I know various parties have said only happened because someone realized they'd named him "Manning." But given Dorian/Jason, I can also see there being a plan early on to at some point send Dorian after a (by then recast) Joey.

I'm glad I've never been that invested in who really killed Victor, if that was Victor, etc., because the various do-overs and re-writes would irritate me. The "Heart of a Lord" story was shortly after I started watching, so I didn't know enough backstory to be either excited or outraged when it turned out he was alive or "alive." To me, he was just another back-from-the-dead character. I do remember Dorian sometime later casting suspicion on whether or not that was even Victor, and I think that was RS's idea, right, for the reason you state?

On 3/30/2026 at 9:09 AM, Vee said:

You can see hints of the story as early as summer '93 at least, IMO. In the 25th anniversary episodes in July, in order to save C.J. and Al they have to tear down the walls to re-access Victor's secret room, hidden for many years since the '80s (which will then figure into the DID story in 1995). Viki has an intense, visceral and almost terrified reaction to this which seems too much (and which mirrors how she reacts when Dorian lays everything out for her in early '95). I think that was one of the first pennies to drop.

Oh, this is great to know. I'm excited to get to those scenes. I'm at spring '93 at the moment, so it won't be long now.

On 3/30/2026 at 9:09 AM, Vee said:

And yeah, as a kid who grew up watching Dark Shadows on the Sci-Fi Channel at the same time as I was watching OLTL in the '90s there were a lot of gothic similarities. The fact that the Viki/Dorian story stretched back 20+ years fascinated me and was a big part of what had me hooked on the show.

Exactly -- the first time I did get to see anything from '95, this would have been first as clips, I was taken aback by the tone because it was so unlike what I knew from soaps. Viki not really being Viki touched so many different stories in varied ways, and the dramatic irony was through the roof. I loved it.

On 4/2/2026 at 11:46 PM, mar4331 said:

I obviously love the Bo and Nora story so I'll just skip over that. EXCEPT to say that when Bo kisses Nora at Sarah's grave (great scenes!), Sarah's grave states she was born in 1965. That would make her 26 or 27 at the time of her death, and Bo being 43/44. I can't. Every time I see clips of Bo and Sarah (either one), he looks like her father😩 The show could have at least aged her up to be early 30s to make it not so weird.

I was so taken aback by that grave kissed that I gasped.

Bo/Sarah is happening in the 1989 episodes I'm watching, and I just don't get it. And isn't Bo/Cassie right after that? No thanks.

On 4/2/2026 at 11:46 PM, mar4331 said:

The eye rolling (fast forwarding) scenes are Cain and Tina. I used to like them together for some reason. Maybe I just thought they were pretty. The back and forth with them is really annoying. Cord is fine except I find myself laughing when he gets angry, which is pretty much every scene. I know the story gets better once Angela comes in, so hopefully it isn't much longer til she appears.

Yeah, it really is the repetitive nature of those scenes that bothers me more than anything else: Tina says she can't decide because she loves both men; Cord yells at Tina because she let Cain around the kids; Tina asks Cord what happened to him in captivity; Cord refuses to say and just yells more; Cain mopes.

It was also pretty obvious to me early on that she was going to end up picking Cain, so there's no suspense either...just delaying the inevitable.

On 4/2/2026 at 11:46 PM, mar4331 said:

Oh, and Max and Luna: no thanks. Sorry, but James Depaiva should have left the show once Luna was gone like he kept threatening to. It's really amazing he stayed as long as he did without any real family connections to the show? They gave him a brother and sister for a bit and then they ignored his kids for years. WHY WAS HE STILL ON THE SHOW. Can you tell I don't like Max??

Max rarely works for me -- not with Luna, not with Blair, not with Maggie. Reading about how JDP handled or rather didn't handle it when he was unhappy behind the scenes never helped my impression of Max's character during the years I've watched either.

I'd be curious to see more of him and Gabrielle, though. I've only seen little bits here and there, and where I am right now in 1989 they're pretty bitterly fighting over Al and he's chasing after Megan, and I know somehow I've seen or read about some scene where he is on the stand in some case and he admits to loving Gabrielle, maybe upsetting Megan? in the process? I don't know if that's pre-1989 or if that's still coming. The clip must have been in a promo, because I remember it vividly.

But even though I haven't seen a lot of them together, I can see in what I have seen that JDP and FH have chemistry, and their characters seem to suit each other. Max should be with a schemer and not a saintly Luna/Maggie type, and the problem with Blair is that he really does think she's beneath him and treats her accordingly and she lets him, which is gross.

Then again, I'll admit my ignorance here...maybe he treats Gabrielle the exact same way, in which case I'd need some other reason to find them more palatable than Blair/Max.

I'll add, though, on the subject of Max, that it was a mistake to kill Al (who should have gotten to continue his friendship with CJ as adults -- the next generation of Max/Cord) and a further mistake to never do anything with Frankie and Leslie. JDP's payoff for all the scenes of Max changing diapers or whatever should have been his positioning as the rare non-Buchanan/non-Lord patriarch, with stories organically coming from the trouble he and his kids would find themselves getting into around town.

On 4/2/2026 at 11:46 PM, mar4331 said:

Finally, Asa is my favourite but has only showed up in a couple episodes so far. He always steals every scene. When CJ runs away, Asa tells Renee a hilarious tidbit how he left both Clint and Bo alone at the age of 12 in the desert to find their way home😆😆

I remember that bit -- that was a great little character moment.

Edited 1 hour ago1 hr by sunvsbanner

7 minutes ago, sunvsbanner said:

Thank you -- I wonder then what, if any, other story threads might have been planned to take place around the earlier/originally planned version of the DID, or if it was going to be a more contained story than what we got later, which may well have been at least part coincidence...at least as far as the Todd angle, which I know various parties have said only happened because someone realized they'd named him "Manning." But given Dorian/Jason, I can also see there being a plan early on to at some point send Dorian after a (by then recast) Joey.

I'm glad I've never been that invested in who really killed Victor, if that was Victor, etc., because the various do-overs and re-writes would irritate me. The "Heart of a Lord" story was shortly after I started watching, so I didn't know enough backstory to be either excited or outraged when it turned out he was alive or "alive." To me, he was just another back-from-the-dead character. I do remember Dorian sometime later casting suspicion on whether or not that was even Victor, and I think that was RS's idea, right, for the reason you state?

I don't think that was Robin's idea, but she was very pleased about it. In fall '07, right after Ron Carlivati took over, he had Dorian and Viki once again locked together and during those scenes Dorian once again reiterated that she killed Victor. She offered no explanation for how this was possible given the 1995 retcon, it was just a couple lines of dialogue. That was also when they explicitly changed Victor's date of death in the Lord mausoleum back to the '70s vs. 2003, basically dismissing Malone II's terrible Heart of a Lord resurrection. Dorian addresses it in one line by saying 'if that was him...' Good enough for me! I still don't believe Dorian killed Victor, but I am just glad that was not him in '03.

Strangely enough, according to a period soap mag at the time Dorian and Joey may have been on the books as early as when Chris McKenna was still in the role, which is crazy since he still looked all of 14 up until he was recast with Nathan Fillion. They'd also hoped to have Joey be the gay teen in the AIDS quilt story in '92 as you probably know, but were forced to create Billy Douglas when the network vetoed it. (The young McKenna had no problem with the idea as he'd already played gay onstage in New York, including performing a male/male kiss, but I don't think OLTL ever got as far as pitching it to him; he only learned about the aborted story years later.)

7 minutes ago, sunvsbanner said:

Exactly -- the first time I did get to see anything from '95, this would have been first as clips, I was taken aback by the tone because it was so unlike what I knew from soaps. Viki not really being Viki touched so many different stories in varied ways, and the dramatic irony was through the roof. I loved it.

I've said this many times, but I was watching live the day Viki turned into Tommy, screamed at Dorian that she was an ugly bitch and threw her down the stairs. I was maybe 13 and I had no idea what was happening, because at that time I had no idea Viki had ever had multiple personalities. I thought she had just totally lost her mind and I was terrified. But I was not surprised (or disappointed) by the Victor reveal. From the day I started watching, once that story came up the vibe and how Viki and others talked about her father was off and very strange to me. I had also watched Twin Peaks when I was very little with my mother. So I had a feeling I knew the dark secret, and I was right.

I will disagree about Max and Luna and simply say I loved them in their heyday. But I know why they didn't work for some people. I did love Gabrielle and I wish they'd gotten another real shot, something Tomlin abandoned in 2002 due to BTS reasons and viewer feedback and something Malone didn't get his chance to try out in '03. But I also really enjoyed Bo/Gabrielle. Opposites attract.

Malone II in 2003-04 was a deranged period I have discussed at length many, many times. All I'll say is it was both wildly creative and experimental, just like his '80s tenure, but just as often wildly misguided, sheer hysterical camp or just plain terrible.

Edited 1 hour ago1 hr by Vee