The Walking Dead: Discussion Thread

[quartermainefan]

I think you are looking at the show with far too strong soap couple glasses. I don't see any of this. For the longest time everyone I knew thought Michonne was lesbian and loved Andrea. All week long I have been discussing the show with those of my friends who watch it, and have yet to even hear once any mention of Jessie. Most refer to her as "that woman who cut his hair" or "that girl he likes". She is a minor concern, insignificant I think to most people except whathisname who has to talk about them on Talking Dead and the writers. She has been on three episodes, why do you give this character such weight?

People think of Michonne on her own terms already because she has a cool sword. Don't underestimate that sword's appeal. I really think if she did not have the sword she would have been written out long ago but the sword is her great and main selling point. Daryl has his arrows. These things matter to people whether we like to admit it or not. What makes a character cool to people and therefore popular? Swords is a good an answer as any.

[DRW50]

I think for the most part Michonne's material since the back half of season 4 has been about Rick and his family. That's why it concerns me what her role will be now that "the new Mrs. Rick Grimes" is around. It would be easy for the show to define her in that realm, because that's where many people already put her anyway.

[Vee]

What many people, though? I don't think most of the general audience sees or cares about Jessie in that way. I see no evidence of that.

[DRW50]

I think if the story continues on the current path

then she's going to be pushed into a default wife/mother position to Rick, and given how many fans seem happy to accept a woman in that role (as long as she remembers her place and is white and attractive), then that makes it less likely Michonne will have less and less of a role in his life. And I'm OK with that if we get more of her with good stuff on her own (like what she had with Sasha and Rosita), but if she is still there in Rick's story mostly just to be some type of prop or crutch for him, it will bother me. I've already seen too much fan hate for her after this episode - if she's getting hate because she knocked out a man who was ranting and raving and waving a gun around, what will happen when it's not as clearcut?

[Antoyne]

Who are these fans you're constantly talking about?

[DRW50]

People on message boards, review comment sections like AV Club or IGN, social media in general. There are only a few places (this and Previously TV) where I haven't seen a lot of that type of comment after Sunday's episode.

Edited March 25, 2015 by DRW50

[Vee]

But I think what we're saying is that that doesn't make up the bulk of the audience, and it's definitely not what the show is writing for or doing onscreen.

I also think you seriously underestimate just how much of a massive fan favorite Michonne was even before she was introduced on the TV show and how much she still is. You seem to think that because a few dumb people on Facebook turn on her that it will become some sort of fan war where Michonne will ultimately be vilified by the writing and the program. That is never going to happen. And frankly, she is far too popular for it ever to happen with the mass audience, most of which does not care about shipping wars on a zombie show. You're saying that if they do anything with a story it has to be clear-cut from the beginning exactly who is right and who is wrong, otherwise dumb people in the audience who watch TWD primarily for the romance will get the wrong idea - but stuff like that is going to happen with dumb people no matter what. They have no impact on the storytelling and the show can't let them dictate how they write or what they write. Nor could they ever have that kind of impact on a character as popular as Michonne, even if TWD cared about their opinion, which they don't.

I get that this kind of stuff happens on other TV shows sometimes. It doesn't happen on TWD. But even if it was that kind of TV show, I can't get behind saying you can't write Story X because Idiot Y might misunderstand it. In the end, that is only Idiot Y's problem unless the show makes it theirs (which they won't).

Edited March 25, 2015 by Vee

[DRW50]

The problem is I think a lot of the general audience is likely even worse than what we see online. For instance - not that it's the same thing, but I can imagine the reaction to Aaron and Eric kissing.

It's difficult for a character like Michonne to build a strong presence on a show this huge. It took a lot of work. I remember how disliked she was for much of season 3. Only when she started to get more backstory and POV on her own, along with the bonds with Rick and his family, did that start to change. And now most of this has been limited and she's just there to try to tell Rick what to do or to punch him out. And if that's her main role, then I think it will take a toll on the character.

If this were a show by someone like Shonda Rhimes, who just does what she wants, then it would be one thing, but I do think TWD makes a lot of decisions based on audience response. And I'm wary of a situation being created where Michonne is just there to be some type of "other" to Rick and his brand new Lori and his kids. So that's why I'd rather see her get more material on her own and just move away from Rick's plotline, the way Glenn has generally been removed from his plotline over the years.

[Vee]

I don't think it was difficult to establish Michonne, because Michonne was incredibly popular with fans from the comics. She was always pre-sold. They just happened to get a great actress and expanded the role into much more than it was in the source material. I also don't think she is limited; I think her bond with Rick and Carl has become one of the cornerstones of the TV version of the character. I also think they were separated (for maybe two or three episodes at best) when they were in order to both let their characters breathe on their own and let RIck's breakdown be illustrated without her balancing influence. If anything Michonne has come back to prove Rick is wrong. She is the moral compass here, along with Glenn and Daryl in different ways.

Also, we have no metric for the general audience and how they think or what they do. I think you're thinking about them a lot more than the writers were when they broke down this season, or any season. I also don't see any evidence of what they did purely based on audience response. Nobody was begging for more Carol in Season 2 or 3 but they beefed up her role and made her indispensable. People wanted Lori and Andrea dead for years before they went. People loved Shane. You're telling me the social media audience is incredibly important and is making the show do what it wants or will someday, but everything you say they keep talking about - a love triangle where Michonne is vilifed, a love triangle with Daryl and two women, a show where Daryl is the only character who matters - none of that has ever appeared onscreen.

I understand these kind of social media things worry you on a TV show and I'm not trying to belittle your concern. What I am saying is, just because they concern you this much does not mean the show itself gives a [!@#$%^&*] about what these stupid people think. And I don't think their writing reflects it in any way. They've been hanging much of the moral conscience of the show on Michonne for the better part of two years. I don't think it's fair to keep processing the show through how other people might watch it, and blame them for what you think other people might think about it, even if what they're doing has nothing to do with that.

Edited March 25, 2015 by Vee

[DRW50]

I never said there was a love triangle with Michonne/Rick/Jessie. That's not her role in Rick's story. The problem I have with the writing for her in Rick's life at the moment is about her vanishing from his story as soon as a "suitable" woman arrives, and her returning solely to punch him out. She hasn't spoken to Carl for a half season, she hasn't spent much time with Judith lately, so I can't help wondering exactly what the show sees her as in Rick's life. And that makes me uneasy.

I do think the show pandered heavily to the Daryl love games in the writing, whether it was a triangle or not. Which woman will Daryl save. Will Daryl save his women.

Carol actually did have a lot of big fan support online in seasons 2 and 3, although I agree that probably wasn't why they chose to spare her.

Do I think the show is totally based on fan response? Of course not. But I think it's more focused on fan response than it should be in some cases. Not just in listening to fans, but also in trying to set up stories designed to get a reaction (building up Beth solely to kill her off, but doing so in such an odd way that felt rushed and poorly explained).

I know the show is what it is, and I accept and often enjoy most of what it is. I just hate Rick's story and I can't handwave it or rationalize it. And I hope Michonne moves away from it.

[Vee]

But any question of Daryl being in love with a woman, or having to choose, never actually materialized onscreen. He clearly had deep feelings for Carol and for Beth and for many people in the group, but they have never broken the seal on doing a romance. I think there's a big difference between developing character relationships because they're rich and they're worth exploring, and simply doing it to bait the audience. I never felt TWD did the latter with them or with anyone else, really. I think the Rick and Michonne relationship especially developed organically, and probably took them by surprise with the actors' chemistry (I doubt Daryl and Carol's connection with McBride and Reedus was something they'd always planned, either). Of course they'd want to write for these things. They didn't do it because Facebook told them to. And in the end, Daryl saved no women, the women usually saved themselves. So again, what I'm saying is, these things you keep saying social media wants and is trying to drive the show to do - none of them have ever happened. Certainly not on their terms or in their timeframe.

I would love for the show to do Rick/Michonne romantically, but I neither expect it nor view the show around it. I don't think you do either, but I feel like you're saying that that open question, and the audience response to it, is a much bigger part of the way this season is being written than IMO it actually is or ever was. The whole Jessie plot point, to me, is clearly just a reflection of Rick's PTSD meltdown at this point. And Michonne's whole drive for the back half of this season since the hiatus ended has been for the group to find a new way of living, find some shelter and some new place they can call home, because she's seen what being out on the road forever can do to them and to her. She has been the one telling them they need to change from the start, and Rick has been the one fighting it from the start. Michonne and Rick were both in separate directions trying to find their way in this place, and now she's back to set him straight. Same thing with Carl since coming to Alexandria - he's spending time with actual kids, I can't begrudge him that. I don't think any of this is about breaking those ties, but I do think they deliberately separated some of the group from each other in this strange new world so they can explore themselves (like Michonne coming to grips with her own skills and insecurities in a more peaceful world, or Rick's breakdown instead) and then come back together. I mean, it's only been what, three, four episodes since they arrived?

So we're seeing this season's narrative in two different ways. But I hope you can consider the possibility that maybe they don't care about what these people think, and they're just trying to tell their own story in their own way, even if it drives some people nuts or pits fans against each other. In the end, to most creative personnel, all that crap is just background noise. You worry so much about what they will do or could do because of people in the audience that I don't think you're necessarily being fair to what they are doing.

Edited March 25, 2015 by Vee

[DRW50]

It's not so much the "open question" of Rick and Michonne as it is centering much of Michonne's story on Rick and his family for a season and a half, and then not writing much for her when Rick suddenly has a new love interest - the new Lori, "the new Mrs. Rick Grimes." If Michonne had always had more of a role of her own, she wouldn't have to be stranded, and everything she does at this point would not have to be judged on whether she is "forgetting her place" with Rick or whether she is "jealous" that Rick has found a hot piece.

The scenes they had with Michonne and Sasha and Michonne and Rosita are scenes they should have been having more of with her all season long.

I think some relationships are organic. Some start out organic and then become manipulated. I tend to put Daryl's relationships in the middle. I think Daryl and Carol was organic. Daryl and Beth - I feel like the relationship was created to get fan wars going (which it did, to ugly effect) and to manufacture more tears and pain for Daryl. It never felt real to me and is why I use it as an example of the show pandering or focusing too much on what a fan may want to see. They know some fans love to see Daryl crying, Daryl self-harming, etc. and Beth ultimately ended up being killed for this, IMO.

[Vee]

I think they put Daryl and Beth together but they thought they were opposites and wanted to see what happened with them isolated, for writing value. I didn't want them together romantically, but I didn't mind that duo in story. I also don't think they killed Beth for Daryl; I just think they thought Beth had run her course, which is a fair POV though I didn't agree with it, I thought she'd finally come into her own. I like the whole ensemble, including Norman Reedus; I think he's a charismatic actor they enjoy writing for, but I don't think they do things just to try and service his fanbase. TWD is far bigger than any actor now. It is character-proof and death-proof. And I think it's unfair to say stuff happens because a different actor or character is too popular. There certainly are shows that run like that, TWD is not one of them. They could kill any of the leads on Sunday (and probably will kill at least one regular) and still run for another four or five years if they want to.

And the thing is, Michonne was only slightly separated from Rick for two or three episodes while they both began to find their bearings in Alexandria (and they weren't the only ones). They still shared scenes together but their struggles were very different, for a specific reason which has now been illuminated. And as for Jessie, she's had very little airtime, and the show itself has never positioned her as "the new Mrs. Rick Grimes." You're conflating social media reaction and annoying guests on the talk show with what the show is actually doing. On the show, in the scripts, Jessie is just a woman in trouble whose situation Rick has become unhealthily fixated on while having a PTSD breakdown. And as for the rest, if you're saying the show is saying Michonne has forgotten her place or is jealous - the show is saying nothing like that. People on the Internet are saying that. That's not the show, and that's not what they are writing. They can't help it if dumb people say that [!@#$%^&*], and they can't write everything in the hopes of preventing that because that is impossible - people are always going to be stupid. You have to write in spite of that, which IMO is what they do. If I judged everything everything in terms of how we think the craziest segment of the audience is going to react to it, I think that would become a very different viewing experience for me, and certainly a different writing experience for them. But it's not what I'm seeing and I don't think it's what they're writing.

Edited March 25, 2015 by Vee

[DRW50]

I think that's where our main disagreement is. I don't think the show is treating their relationship that way. Gale Anne Hurd was even on Talking Dead talking about his "feelings" for her and how torn he is as a result. The only person on the panel who suggested the story was about Rick fixating on her was Yvette Nicole Brown, and Hardwick acted like he'd swallowed a bug after the words left her mouth.

I think we're supposed to see it as some type of forbidden love or passion and want Rick to "save" her. And I think the whole thing is just so poorly done that it's gutted the character and has made huge portions of the show unwatchable.

I guess we just won't agree, so I'll move on.

Edited March 25, 2015 by DRW50

[Vee]

I actually think the show's writing is completely with Yvette Brown, though I don't watch the talk show. I don't think anything currently happening has been presented as a foundation for a relationship between Rick or Jessie - if that happens, for however long, it will have to be later. But I think we'll see how the future bears it out.