The Walking Dead: Discussion Thread

[marceline]

I can't stop watching.

[quartermainefan]

For me Sasha's problems are pretty inconsequential. She is just a half step in front of Eugene and Abraham when it comes to how central to the show and the main stories she is. That may be just a by-product of her not being Rick, Daryl or Carol, but this is really her first storyline other than her mourning the true love of her life, the guy she dated for all of one episode.

[DRW50]

To me, Rick, Daryl and Carol all feel very isolated from the group, and oddly inconsequential. Rick's story is hamfisted and makes it clear that he cares about no one, including his kids. Carol has been isolated from the entire group for nearly two full seasons and I'm not sure it will change. Daryl isn't close to much of anyone outside of RIck and Carol, and even that is now fraying. I feel like they're on different shows. Sasha's PTSD story is heavy-handed but it is more believable to me than Rick's current variation of that story, and it's a good way to show some group dynamics. And I'd say Sasha has had as many storylines as Daryl has had in recent seasons. It's just that Sasha can't get away with emo woe, because she's not a white guy with a bad dye job and bulging biceps.

If it weren't for characters like Michonne, Sasha and Tara and Glenn I'm not sure I'd still be watching. I do think Carol's a great character, with consistently interesting stories, but Daryl is just taking up space (although I like his partnership with Aaron), and Rick has been all but destroyed.

Edited March 24, 2015 by DRW50

[Vee]

I don't see why it's an either/or for Sasha or Daryl. I really like both characters, and I think they both have valid reasons for their issues and their pain. I think either would be a real loss, but I do have a feeling Sasha's number may be up. I hope not. I thought the same about Carol last year and I was pleased to be wrong. I also think she's begun reconnecting more with her own emotions a bit, with Sam and such. She doesn't want to go back to being that vulnerable and feeling, but she is, bit by bit. They all are and they all have different reactions. Rick's is the worst and it's supposed to be.

As to Rick, he's just being deconstructed. He's having a breakdown and I think they've made it abundantly clear in the writing and direction that nothing about his connection with Jessie at present is healthy. His fixation on her problem - and his unnaturally swift, superficial and domineering attraction to her - is just a symptom of his violent sort of struggle to reconnect with humanity and with any kind of civilization beyond the group's nearly primal, roving existence on the road.

Thinking back over it in the last few days, I realized that this is something the show has been trying to reflect and refract throughout the whole of the season, but I think the split in the year has hurt them with illustrating that properly, the same way I felt Season 4 was quite good but suffered a bit from the split when it frontloaded a lot of separation episodes for the back end. I didn't mind the separation but a lot of people did, and I think that had to do with the mid-season cutoff point. Anyway, as to this year: The group started out fighting the cannibals of Terminus, who went to the bleeding edge of their survival instinct, where Rick is approaching right now - killing anything that wasn't them in order to preserve themselves. Then you had Dawn and the hospital in Atlanta, where they had this very regimented, brutal system which looked secure on the outside but was rotting away due to its own sick pathology as it struggled to show some semblance of order. Now you have Alexandria. Rick and the crew have seen Terminus, they've seen the hospital and now they're all reacting in different ways to yet another new setup, another new civilization. Rick has come to trust nothing but what he knows or can hold and protect and it's sent him into a really dark place. Jessie and her family and that whole situation are just a signifier. It's got nothing to do with a woman and nothing to do with abandoning his friends or his people or his family. His tunnel vision is about what he's been through, and I think they have totally sold it.

Edited March 24, 2015 by Vee

[DRW50]

I think some fans want one thing and are then unhappy when they get it. Some fans want the group to be together. They get upset when that doesn't happen. Then when the group is together, they get upset because their favorites aren't getting enough airtime due to the group format leading to piecemeal storytelling, and they say that means the group has to be pared down, and "boring" or "useless" characters (AKA anyone not named Daryl, maybe Rick, maybe Carol, maybe Michonne) have to die. And I get it, I get that Daryl has been around from the start and he's integral to the show, but this type of fan would rather watch an entire episode of Daryl self-harming than watch 95% of the cast. I have spent two whole seasons watching Daryl's tumblr blog, complete with black and white photos of a Vampire Diaries character saying, "I'm not dead but I'm still dead inside." If I had to choose, then yes, I'd happily choose Sasha over this.

I think you are right about the idea of the hospital and how it compares to Terminus (I think the show is genuinely trying to sell "Jessick" as a love story and Rick as simultaneously noble and scary, that yes, it's bad, but look how much he does when he finds a woman he needs, and so on), but I think the hospital material was oddly paced and marred by a poor final episode. I don't think the execution was there. That often seems to be the case with Gimple's broader themes.

It's the parts of the show that most people hate, like the broader supporting cast and split format, that keep me involved at this point.

[Vee]

I just think we can like both; just because something is popular doesn't make it inherently devalued. People worship Michonne and for good reason.

For me, I just can't let a specific subset of dumb fans dictate what I enjoy, or how I process the show and its own merits by worrying about those people on the outside of it. Trying to anticipate the movements and reactions of a slice of the audience doesn't make for a fun viewing experience, and it's not fair, IMO, to the characters or actors or the story that's being told. There's always going to be idiots who worship Daryl or whoever, but that doesn't mean I can't like Daryl (or whoever or whatever else) too while also having what I hope is a bit more of a nuanced take on the entire ensemble. I adore Carol and Rick but it doesn't mean I love Michonne or Sasha or Maggie any less. I think if we worry so much about factionalism, then we end up joining them ourselves. It's just a TV show - I watch it in my own way, I enjoy it in my own way, I leave the idiot fringe completely behind. Otherwise it becomes about filtering the show through other people first. What will they do, what will they say, how should I feel about this scene because of what other people will think about it - who cares?

Edited March 25, 2015 by Vee

[DRW50]

Unfortunately I feel this audience ultimately has the sway. People who blindly love this Jessie story and Jessie and Rick as a couple, who go around comments sections talking about Michonne is a c*** who has forgotten her place. It reminds me of Talking Dead, how they blanch (aside from Yvette Nicole Brown) at the idea of Michonne being acceptable for Rick, how they have guests on the show who talk about how "scary" Michonne is and how that means she can never be anything to Rick or Carl. This Jessie story is pandering to that element. Rick saying he would choose her over anyone and this being sold as a true love connection is pandering. It's saying any basic blonde cipher (and she is the biggest cipher I have ever seen on this show) is good enough, as that means there's no risk.

I really think Rick has been decimated and yet I mostly see people rooting for him and wanting him to just kill everyone. And that's the problem with endless ambiguous, hazy storylines and variations on "who is the real monster." By setting up this story where action figures Rick and Carol want to kill the abusive husband, it just makes it easy for many viewers to side with them and shoot down any idea that it's supposed to be bad or wrong.

[slick jones]

This week was the first time I actually paid attention to Rosita, and to my surprise, I didn't mind her. The same last week with Abraham and Eugene. They aren't the best drawn characters, but with a little work. As for that moron priest...

And he can take Dickolas and Pete with him...

[Vee]

See, I don't think that crazy segment of the audience has half the sway you think it does. If that were true, the show would be nothing but fan favorites dominating airtime and shipping wars, and IMO none of that really has any place in the actual program. It doesn't matter what the network polls for to drum up social media, and it doesn't matter what the talk show does - the show has never care about that. Daryl has never been paired romantically with anyone; Beth was executed; Lori and Andrea were neither vilified nor quickly or summarily disposed of to please that segment of the audience which bayed for their blood. And as for Jessie, the character had a

purpose in the comics which has already been subverted here, by introducing her and her dilemma as a symptom of Rick's psychological tailspin. The character and this subplot existed in the comics and were, in fact, far more benign than what's been presented here, IIRC - this was not invented out of whole cloth and introduced simply in order to pander to fans who don't like the black woman. There was a good chance this subplot was always going to turn up when Alexandria did.

There are always going to be fans who only like X or Y or only want this or that, on any TV show. The trick is for the TV show to not fall into the trap of writing for those elements and pleasing no one, and I think TWD has never done that. I want Rick and Michonne to happen myself, but I don't think anything about this current storyline has anything to do with that or with closing that possibility off. It just doesn't register in that way to me. He is clearly shown to be unstable and out of control - I see nothing saying in the writing or direction, 'oh, but he wuvs her so much and they're a great couple.' If you do that's fine, but I don't think that's the story they're telling at all and I see no evidence of it. Maybe they might go there if he gets his head on straight and she lasts beyond the season, who knows. I also don't think it's fair to say that the show can't have any kind of ambiguous storytelling or characterization because it might embolden the wrong element of the audience. That's not fair to storytelling. They can't shout through a bullhorn, and to me that would be writing for them, letting them have sway - by making everything about them and how they should process the show. I think the only way to write fiction is to find your character's stories and tell them, and if stupid people get it twisted, correct them as best you can later. And if they still don't get it, !@#$%^&*] 'em - it's not an adult education course. That's certainly been TWD's approach in the past and I'm good with it.

Edited March 25, 2015 by Vee

[quartermainefan]

But the group is really just there to offer support to the stars of the show. Yes it is an ensemble, but the characters that are the shows bread and butter are Rick, Carol, Daryl and Carl. Perhaps Michonne now too. I really hope I am wrong about Carol being the next to go, but we shall see.

[Vee]

I don't think that's true about that group at all. I do think there is a central core (which I would say currently consists of Rick, Carl, Michonne, Daryl, Carol, Glenn and Maggie) but i think the showrunners view the whole ensemble as a larger and constantly growing and shifting unit, and some will become more central or have their turn in the spotlight, and some central figures will go and others will take their place. It happened to Shane, Lori and Andrea (and even Hershel) and it will happen to others as well. Michonne and Carol took some people's places. The only people I think are likely here for the longest possible haul are Rick, Carl and Michonne at this point. Sooner or later I think the others will fall away, including Daryl, if only because Norman Reedus' career is branching out considerably.

Here's the thing that goes back to my original point, though - even if you and I disagree, I don't think the show has to resolutely go out of its way to prove either one of us wrong. It just has to keep doing what it's doing, which to me is doing a pretty decent job of balancing a very large ensemble. It's not just pandering to the core group.

Edited March 25, 2015 by Vee

[quartermainefan]

Daryl is the most popular character on the show. I guess it is possible they could write him out prematurely but I don't see them doing it.

[DRW50]

I think Lori was written out earlier than planned because of fan negativity. I think "Caryl" and "Bethyl" were baited for fan reaction too.

In the case of Michonne, it's not just about whether or not she will be with Rick, it's why she needs to be defined by his story or being his protector. This is creating a negative situation where she is some type of enforcer compared to noble victim Jessie. It redirects people from thinking of Michonne on her own terms, and instead seeing her as Rick's betrayer, or Rick's keeper. It limits her significantly.

If he's still there after years of nothingness, I think he will be there until Norman wants to go.

[Vee]

I don't think that would scare them - there are a lot of popular characters now, not just Daryl, and the show is now basically critic-proof. It's always been character-proof. It's going to run and run for years to come. Sooner or later several more favorites will leave, and that may or may not include Reedus. They're not scared to kill anyone.

[Vee]

I don't think they wrote Lori out over fan complaints; I think they just decided it was time. She was pregnant and Lori died near the same point in the comics, albeit in different circumstances. It also threw people for a loop, IMO, coming when it did.

I also don't think Michonne has ever been defined as Rick's protector or by his story. They've always taken great pains to show a far more complete and whole person on the show than the caricature of the comics, which is the only way I warmed up to her despite not being a fan of the comic version at all. On the show she's not just a badass with a sword, she's a whole, three-dimensional woman, who IMO doesn't have anything like these relationships in the source material. Her whole thing last week - dealing with her own trauma and demons and supporting Sasha - also had nothing to do with Rick. A lot of her stuff has nothing to do with Rick.

And I don't know how you can say they're pitting Jessie against Michonne when the two have shared no scenes, have never had a conversation and neither has discussed the other with Rick, nor has the show ever set up a dynamic between them. I think you're looking at a couple fans on social media blaming Michonne for punching Rick out, maybe wanting a relationship between Rick and Jessie, and then you're saying the show must be doing something to make them think or feel this way. I don't think that's true or fair, because how many people do you see, here and everywhere, including in the show itself and in the scripts or with the showrunners, saying Rick was out of control, Michonne had to stop him? Then the question becomes which POV is real, which one wins out? Because I think it's abundantly clear that anyone saying Michonne was in the wrong, that's not coming from the show - that's just a couple fans being idiots. A show can be critic-proof or character-proof, but no TV show is idiot fan-proof. You're asking TWD to do something it can't do, which is change human nature and completely control social media feedback. I don't think you can't blame the show for a few people making it about Jessie vs. Michonne - or maybe doing that in the future, if it hasn't happened yet - when there is nothing in the show itself that is doing that. (It also never created a romantic triangle between Beth, Daryl and Carol, but that's a whole other thing.)

Michonne is a massive fan favorite that pre-dates even the show. She is never going to be in danger of being supplanted by the chick who showed up a couple weeks ago.

Edited March 25, 2015 by Vee