Yes but they are not saying he changed. They are saying this is what Billy has always been.

John didn't get involved with any women, not seriously, between the last breakup with Jill, when Billy was a toddler, and several years after an adult Billy had left town.

I guess the problem for me is that YOU are explaining this, and I can respect that, but the show is not. That's the thing with Sheffer writing. He just makes people into these unrecognizable things because he wants to, and for no other reason. He did this with Craig on ATWT. I remember people saying, "This is the real Craig, this is how he would be." No it wasn't. And I noticed less and less people saying that when "the real Craig" got to the point where he was setting up his ex-wife's fiance as a stalker and causing him to be killed.

Sheffer has some sort of fantasy male figures and he will always push them front and center on any show he writes. These men are sociopaths with perma-smirks who have no relationship with anything but a bottle.

If people find that entertaining, then that's up to them. I don't. I also think that it has rotted away at every single show he has gone near.

John married Jessica, Cricket's mother who happened to be HIV+, and, while they practiced safer-sex, condoms are only at best 70% effective. I never saw John as a great dad and, had things gone wrong, Billy would have been left fatherless. When you are a parent, risk should be avoided. Had John been part of the unlucky 30%, his other kids, who were ditched by Dena, would have probably been crushed, too. John later took serious risk with Gloria and even left her the family home. I have no idea why people think he was such a great dad. He was a great husband but never father of the year.

As for Billy, why would the writers need to explain that the character has changed while it is all to painfully obvious. Primetime never needs to spell things out in the same manner as daytime and I've always been perplexed as to why. The viewer can easily assume that life keeps happening off screen and off canvus. I assume Victor showers, but have never seen it. I assume Billy had a variety of experience, some good and some bad, and don't need a convo between Jack and Ashley saying, 'well, I guess Billy grew up!' As for the ATWT Craig comment, the real problem, for me, was that Hogan took things too far when it came to murder. I assumed the break with Sierra had made Craig harder when Hunt Block first appeared. I could deal with that and suppose the viewer was supposed to think the character was caught in some sort of downward spiral. By the time Craig basically killed, I do aree it was out of character. The difference between Billy and Craig is age--Billy had far less history and was still in puberty when he left the show. I think Hogan likes ruthless characters but don't think any of them are quite sociopaths. A sociopath can never change and will always be mentally ill. With characters like ATWT Craig and Y&R Billy, Victor, Kevin and even Adam there is always some hope that either love or some other power will make them better men. In fact, that may be why people have an interst in these men. A lot of people like/lust/love 'bad boys' because they think they have the power to change them. Once in a great while, it does happen, as was the case with Kevin. He transformed from a walking STD/rapist/wannabe killer into a nice guy after dealing with terrible Tom and then loving Gena. I think most of us have fallen for a scum bag and really believed we would create change. Maybe this is why people still tune in?

Edited October 7, 201015 yr by Saving ATWT

John married Jessica, Cricket's mother who happened to be HIV+, and, while they practiced safer-sex, condoms are only at best 70% effective.

That was before Billy was conceived.

I wasn't watching then, but I didn't even know if they had sex. For some reason I thought they were together very briefly before he let her reconcile with the man she really loved, her first husband.

As for Billy, why would the writers need to explain that the character has changed while it is all to painfully obvious.

It's obvious that he changed, but the motivations are not obvious. I think this type of thing traps a character. Look at what happened to Patty. Or to their attempt to make Adam an overnight psycho.

It's obvious that he changed, but the motivations are not obvious. I think this type of thing traps a character. Look at what happened to Patty. Or to their attempt to make Adam an overnight psycho.

Exactly.

There is characters changing & there is characters being written to suit agendas.

Billy Miller is a perfect example of a character written to suit agendas.

But as usual Y&R's established history & characters don't matter.

It's all symphonic fanfic.

He transformed from a walking STD/rapist/wannabe killer into a nice guy

Wow.

I can't believe it! A WHITE actress fired from Y&R! PROTEST!!!! A former nutcase from Y&R would lead you believe that only black actresses are fired.

You can do better.

*YAWN* I'm protesting the WHITE people firings! A white person fired?

Again. You can do better.

That was before Billy was conceived.

I wasn't watching then, but I didn't even know if they had sex. For some reason I thought they were together very briefly before he let her reconcile with the man she really loved, her first husband.

It's obvious that he changed, but the motivations are not obvious. I think this type of thing traps a character. Look at what happened to Patty. Or to their attempt to make Adam an overnight psycho.

I would agree in so far TPTB feel the show needs to generate certain 'types' of characters and that they have twisted/altered the younger generation to accomplish this. Apapathetic 'post modern' Gen X and Y(bother) has its types just as prior generations and slapping them onto the canvas was probably what MAB meant when she talked of taking Y&R into the 21 century. Bill Bell's gave most of the older generation sweet kids and this was continued by Jack Smith. Neither were developing complex or layered 17 year olds and most were fairly generic, on a par with Edan and exNoah Newman--the recast seems rather amped up. A show populated by sweet kids would be boring and maybe MAB should have just removed them from the canvus and added newcommers like LB did with ATWT in the late 1990's. Granted, deconstructing the core families of a top show is tricky.

Billy and Cloe are the total personification of the spoiled slacker late twentysomething. Cane is the urban metrosexual type who is too in touch with his emotions. Kevin is that classic abused kid who will use childhood abuse as a lifetime excuse for each and every misdeed. Daniel is the torured artist who dicks women over with his selfish disregard. Amber is the white trash girl trying to make it big. Lilly stands out well as part of America's new black upper crust. Sadly, these characters remind me of so many ex classmates. I actually find Adam as well as Sky to be two of the more layered new characters. Maybe the genre is in so much trouble because we are dealing with a rather uninspired generation. I'm 34 and part of it myself: We're the grown men who still act like boys, thought war was impossible, play video games, can't imagine fatherhood till 40 and consider six months a long term relationship. The women of my generation aren't much better. With that said, what does a soap do with us? I've know so many Billy types and the only thing Hogan left out is the DL bisexuality. I got lucky and went on full scholorship to a top 40 school and, minus all the babies and marriage, the writers have done a fine job of creating replicas of my fello students. Maybe this is why the show is tops in demos? I get what you are saying about so many characters being emotionally stunted but that just seems to be the case with the texting/internet/video game generation. When Sharron s a great grandmother in 8 years, if the showe is still around, it will be interesting to see what type of character is popular then.

Again. You can do better.

Do you think Y&R is starting to get its racial house in order regarding the African American cast? nuMalcolm and Sofia seem to be a good effort. There should be something Latin on the show aside from a passive Spanish lawyer who looks whiter than me. Also, I still think they killed Brad for being a Jew. Not many Jewish people watch soaps and his WW2 art story bombed. I liked his mama.

Do you think Y&R is starting to get its racial house in order regarding the African American cast?

No.

Y&R is more racist, sexist & homophobic now than its ever been.

No.

Y&R is more racist, sexist & homophobic now than its ever been.

Adam is a sociopath, not an example of the LGBT community. If a hook up with Kay would have helped his chances, he would have romanced her. I can't call the show homophobic but don't think they are willing to use gays on canvus. Granted, soccer moms fear gay story. It makes them think of their husbands and sons. Daytime is so different than primetime and the bible belt stops watching.

Y&R needs a Latin family considering the hispanic population has the most stay at home moms.

Neil, as well as all other nice guys, bores me and should leave! NuMalcolm is hot and I expected to hate him because Moore had played the character for so long. Sofia has potential and I love that she has curves. Dru coming back would be great but the show already has so many women in that age group. With the addition of Maura West, someone needs to get axed.

Come to think of it, Maura and Malcolm would be a hot combo. I like the actress playing up against a dom man (Hunt Block) and am sick of her with nice guys like no balls Jack Snyder and now no balls Jack Abbot. Dhe would have been a great match for Brad.

Edited October 7, 201015 yr by Saving ATWT

Adam is a sociopath, not an example of the LGBT community.

He is an example of the LGBT community when he's one of the only representation afforded to them on Y&R.

If a hook up with Kay would have helped his chances, he would have romanced her.

Yep.

But by using sex to manipulate Rafe Y&R equated Adam's sociopathy with his sexual orientation.

I can't call the show homophobic but don't think they are willing to use gays on canvus.

Y&R's only representation of LGBTQ people are a baby stealing sociopath, a cowardly middle aged absentee father & a token latino lawyer (that's barely more than a dayplayer).

None of whom have no real purpose beyond propping other characters & little to no romantic relationships.

Kish & Nuke had their faults but at least they were allowed physical intimacy without the implication they were desperate (Rafe), eunuchs (Phillip) or crazy (Adam).

the bible belt stops watching.

Not true.

For instance several other characters/stories (Todd/Tea, John, Stacy/Rex/Gigi, Sole, Mitch) had as much play if not more during Kish's run yet THEY weren't blamed for OLTL's ratings problems (despite doing much more overall damage).

Y&R needs a Latin family considering the hispanic population has the most stay at home moms.

Definitely.

But given Y&R can't even treat their existing core African American family with anything remotely resembling respect Hispanics have pretty much dodged a bullet thus far.

Y&R has 25% male viewership, very high for daytime, and I think this is because, for the most part, the show has done a good job writing male characters. ATWT was told almost exclusivly from a female perspective but I've always felt that Y&R is really good at giving male characters strong motive, depth and voice. Billy is supposed to be a mess, a Jack Jr. with elements of Jill. Billy has changed a lot since a teen but so have most soap characters. At the start, JT was a bully but, now, is a white knight. Billy is a mixer, causes drama, scangle and problems for the entire town via his conduct and mag. Billy, like Jack, is a trouble maker. As of late, he has been developing, becoming more mature, 'cause of this love for Victoria. The character is certanly softer now.

I've always just considered JT a bore. The PI stuff would have been bad--it, as well as Paul, was, for me, one of the less interesting parts of the show. Also, prime time does crime so much better than a soap. Aside from having a pretty face, JT has never had a real purpose on the show. I like'nice guys with morals' but have never thought of him that way since he slept with Britt's mother. If anything, I see Kevin as the nice guy character. Aside from his mental issues, Kevin is a hopeless romantic and overall sweet character.The same can be said for Michael who has really developed during his marriage to Lauran. I would even dare to call Cane a nice guy who happens to have a troubled past. These characters can easily fill any void left by JT.

I think you just love the nice boys. I just think they are boring soap material.

I actually agree with you on this. JT never did much for me. We have PAUL for the hero, and for whatever reason.... better acting chops actually... Paul just makes JT look like dogmeat. I just want Paul to have more airtime. I like Billy Miller, too... my only issue is his overexposure. I want to see him, I don't want to see him EVERY DAY.

I actually agree with you on this. JT never did much for me. We have PAUL for the hero, and for whatever reason.... better acting chops actually... Paul just makes JT look like dogmeat. I just want Paul to have more airtime. I like Billy Miller, too... my only issue is his overexposure. I want to see him, I don't want to see him EVERY DAY.

He'll never be David Tom. Why they just didn't bring him back I'll never understand.

He'll never be David Tom. Why they just didn't bring him back I'll never understand.

They are ashamed of their show and want to hire any random actor from any other soap they can find. Hiring MILLER MAGIC was also a way to further prop Liz Hendrickson, as this led to acres of press about AMC'S LOSS IS Y&R'S GAIN, LOOK OUT ABC!!!

As for Paul making JT look like dog meat, the characters existed on the show together for years. Paul himself barely has any storyline. I don't see the competition. If anything Paul is on his way out not long after JT.