I wasn't bothered by Stacy's death but I can see where it might be seen as overkill. The last few years have had so many women dying, and for no real reason. I still can't believe what happened with Talia. And Dr. Joplin, committed suicide, and yet Todd, who did so much more than she did, is lionized as the ideal man, a wonderful husband and father. And Janet, killed for no real reason, and then her death was turned into a joke with Tea doing her awful mugging. Pamela, killed for no real reason.

Lee Halpern killed for no good reason either. Why bring back old characters only to kill them off? Stupid.

Carl, that, I can get behind and agree with. (I'm not really sure though why Jared had to be killed, Nash's body propped up, etc though either...)

JackP said:

"Stacey & Claudia did both need to die. They never should have been brought on, shoved at us, propped up, etc... They were hated by most fans and their deaths actually set story off. Were the a bit much? Sure.

But why not write about what OLTL is doing to Jessica or GH is doing to Liz instead? Those are much greater examples of how soaps treat women, IMHO. "

Exactly. I do think Claudia's death was much more extreme, and typical of GH than Stacey was for OLTL, but...

There is no soul to GH and OLTL. They're not "punishing" evil doers. They're just offing them in the most graphic ways for sensationalistic purposes in hopes of grabbing ratings. Marlena is absolutely on the money.

So you think they believed the hype about people stopping their soap habits because of OJ and trashy talk shows? I think people lost interest in soaps for reasons beyond that, and the soaps or the networks just didn't get it. They got it before, when they managed to revive themselves in the mid/late 70s, but I guess times have changed. There's such a rigid and unpleasant backlash against women and against minorities in so much of entertainment, but I think it hurts the most with soaps because I remember seeing all those black or Latino characters on soaps regularly, in important stories. I truly never thought that we would return to the days where a token black person shows up for five seconds a month, like poor Bonnie on ATWT before they finally wrote her off for good.

When it comes to minorities it seems like soaps are going the wrong way, they are going back in time. Just look at Abe and Lexie on DAYS. In the past they had stories now they are on once or twice a month. And I swear if anyone brings up Theo having autism to "prove me wrong" about them not having a story, I'm gonna scream. I don't understand why Abe and Lexie are still together. Abe toally brings her down, but we can't break up the show's token black couple now can we.

The thing with Mitch is, he can die and die and die again, but he will be back. Just to compare once again, Stacy held back some DNA to blackmail Rex with or else the kid didn't get the surgery. She paid the price and order was restored. Mitch delivered Viki's daughter to Victor so he could basically rip her heart out for a transplant. That was years ago and Mitch only soap died, not died died. Anyway, this brings me back to my comment about nihilism, the basic rejection of all order, and no value on life. Mitch had Nash's rotting body propped up in a chair (something that also was once more suited for Texas Chainsaw Massacre). It isn't just sexism, but there is definitely a double standard.

Years ago, a comic book blogger and now writer wrote an essay titled "women in refrigerators" The title comes from an issue of GREEN LANTERN where he comes home to find that not only did the villain kill his girlfriend, but he shoved her into the fridge. That inspired her to take a look at violence towards women in comic books, and the list was immense.

http://www.unheardtaunts.com/wir/index.

It's just the culture, and society has always hated women even if no one will admit it (just look at how women were depicted in Film Noir). Graphic times calls for graphic deaths I guess.

Enlightened stories and enlightened writers can change the "culture" for the better. Bob Guza and Ron C pander to the worst common denominator in humanity. "Graphic times call for graphic deaths." What a callous, thoughtless, insensitive statement! Shame!

Edited February 19, 201015 yr by SOAPSFOREVER

I agree with the column. The deaths she is talking about are shot in a way where the audience gets to indulge in every last moment of desperation, and take whatever thrill from it they will. I felt bad years ago when Lyndsay's daughter died, almost stalked. It just seemed wrong. Years ago on GH the show chronicled the last moments of a desperate and petrified Chloe as her killer stalked her in a room. Death is fine, but these things the death is watched akin to the way you watch sex in a porn film. A couple of years back on GH Jerry stabbed Claudia in the gut and then kicked her into the river to drown as she bled to death. Her actual death I thought was a little more tasteful since we didn't actually see the point of impact.

There is a nihilism to TV soaps these days, just going crazy for the sake of it as the shows revel in death. Stacy's crimes were not those that warranted the death penalty. A little blackmail to get a guy? Isn't that was the soap villains are supposed to do? You can kill a villain to set up further story like a whodunit, but if the idea that Stacy deserved to die was really true, would Sheila from Y&R/B&B ever lasted, or Heather from GH? And then back to the sexism for a moment, it seems the men never deserve to die in such graphic detail. How does Stacy deserve to die so miserably but Todd or Mitch never seem to? On GH Jerry killed Alan, shot Robin, committed acts of terrorism, sold Sam into prostitution recently, held teenagers hostage, poisoned Nik, sold drugs, and eventually participated in the shooting of a 12 year old boy. The moral code than mandated Claudia or Stacy die doesn't seem to remain constant.

Maybe because there is no moral code. I think some here have been reading way to many conspiracy theories about how the soaps current TPTB hates women. Instead of saying that the women are purposely being written as weak and needy or that female characters get more sadistic death scenes than men, you should look at each character and each story individually. Lumping things (as in certain kind of characters, stories, etc) together can be very dangerous.

I agree that the way that Claudia was written out of GH was horrible. I think the whole storyline is pretty sick...Michael killing Claudia in self defense? Sure, ok, that's fine. Had GH written it where Michael had to stand trial, and focused on his trials and tribulations over the stress of possibly going to jail, then the storyline would have been fine.

But, instead, they buried her in the middle of the woods, with absolutely no respect. and NO ONE, including Michael, has any remorse over it. THAT is what makes me sick, because evil or not, Claudia was a human being.

And all of this nonsense with Dante trying to take SOnny down for the murder is just YET another ploy to get Sonny off the hook, and after Sonny is aquitted, the murder will go away, and justice will never be served.

We all know that Dante is going to figure out Michael did it, and then he wont testify, yadda yadda yadda, and the story will go away.

I think it was handled horribly, and the whole thing was just horrible and degrading.

Stacy however, was different. No one KILLED her, she fell threw ice. There is no body, and ill be 10 bucks she'll show up perfectly alive in a year. Stacy's exit was actually handled much better than i expected it to be.

The thing with Mitch is, he can die and die and die again, but he will be back. Just to compare once again, Stacy held back some DNA to blackmail Rex with or else the kid didn't get the surgery. She paid the price and order was restored. Mitch delivered Viki's daughter to Victor so he could basically rip her heart out for a transplant. That was years ago and Mitch only soap died, not died died. Anyway, this brings me back to my comment about nihilism, the basic rejection of all order, and no value on life. Mitch had Nash's rotting body propped up in a chair (something that also was once more suited for Texas Chainsaw Massacre). It isn't just sexism, but there is definitely a double standard.

There's totally a double-standard and it's sickening. Stacy must be punished but Mitch is given more airtime to spew his hateful nonsense. He's not dead nor will he ever be. He'll be dragged out by however many lazy HW's OLTL has in it's future when they get desperate for a sweeps stunt.

Am I supposed to believe that Claudia just HAD to face karmic justice while Sonny continues to be adored, worshiped, and protected at all costs. Sonny is every bit as evil as Claudia if not more so and Mitch is far sicker than Stacy but it's cool for them to skate by on everything they do no matter how horrific but chicks need to be punished for everything. You're seeing a similar and sickening attitude on Days right now with EJ's sick game with Sami. It was somehow bad of her to not tell him that she was having his child, who she was protecting because his father had just tried to murder her knowing she was pregant but it's okay for EJ to get back at her by staging the baby's kidnapping and murder.

There is no soul to GH and OLTL. They're not "punishing" evil doers. They're just offing them in the most graphic ways for sensationalistic purposes in hopes of grabbing ratings. Marlena is absolutely on the money.

ITA! With characters like Sonny and Jason being not only accepted but glorified and psychos and hypocrites like Mitch and Rex running around Llanview with no consequences for their behavior, the argument that Stacy and Claudia had to be killed so violently and so gleefully because they were bad is asinine. And untrue. Spare me the justice argument. It's got nothing to do with justice. It's about hatred of women and sadly, some of the people who hate women the most are other women. That's why some of this crap actually sells on soaps.

Enlightened stories and enlightened writers can change the "culture" for the better. Bob Guza and Ron C pander to the worst common denominator in humanity. "Graphic times call for graphic deaths." What a callous, thoughtless, insensitive statement! Shame!

Once again, ICAM!

I agree that the way that Claudia was written out of GH was horrible. I think the whole storyline is pretty sick...Michael killing Claudia in self defense? Sure, ok, that's fine. Had GH written it where Michael had to stand trial, and focused on his trials and tribulations over the stress of possibly going to jail, then the storyline would have been fine.

But, instead, they buried her in the middle of the woods, with absolutely no respect. and NO ONE, including Michael, has any remorse over it. THAT is what makes me sick, because evil or not, Claudia was a human being.

And all of this nonsense with Dante trying to take SOnny down for the murder is just YET another ploy to get Sonny off the hook, and after Sonny is aquitted, the murder will go away, and justice will never be served.

We all know that Dante is going to figure out Michael did it, and then he wont testify, yadda yadda yadda, and the story will go away.

I think it was handled horribly, and the whole thing was just horrible and degrading.

Just thinking about that story makes me nauseous. It's so disrespectful of humanity that it's downright evil in it's own right.

Maybe because there is no moral code. I think some here have been reading way to many conspiracy theories about how the soaps current TPTB hates women. Instead of saying that the women are purposely being written as weak and needy or that female characters get more sadistic death scenes than men, you should look at each character and each story individually. Lumping things (as in certain kind of characters, stories, etc) together can be very dangerous.

Soaps were once very moral, almost black and white in their morality. AMC's Greg and Jenny were good, Liza was bad. Liza could scheme and scheme for ways to make Jenny miserable but in the end love would conquer all and the badguy would meet defeat. On OLTL just think of the various bad guys over the years: Clint's mother, Jaime Sanders, Elizabeth Sanders, Gabrielle, Michael Grande, Ivan Kipling...the bad guy always faced their comeuppance in one way or another. I think the strict morality is what gave the villains the ability to commit their deeds, because the villains had this well defined context with which to work in and contrast with the other characters. When the order breaks down (like it has in recent years) you get chaotic and nonsensical writing like the kind you see on GH. There the villains get ever more evil because there is nothing to contrast them to. And then because there is no morality there is no sense of the villain paying so order can be restored in time for the next story to start.

Just my 2 cents.

The biggest problem with this new shift to villains having to be more and more evil is that it makes their actions less and less compelling, because there is no real counterweight, it's all just dead. Like that whole KAD killer story last year. Powell and Rebecca went around killing or trying to kill a slew of characters, yet in the end, the whole thing was greeted with a shrug by most of Llanview. The same happened with Jessica's latest kidnapping.

I don't think the classic Nixon soaps were that black and white--as she said she liked to show villains (aside from the few OTT ones like Ray Gardner and Billy Clyde) as flawed individuals who do the wrong things but for the right reasons (largely like real life). But certainly we're not talking black/white like the 50s Roy Winsor soaps or the radio soaps--just watching or hearing clips that's obvious. And thank God, that would be deathly to watch day in and out.

There is no soul to GH and OLTL. They're not "punishing" evil doers. They're just offing them in the most graphic ways for sensationalistic purposes in hopes of grabbing ratings. Marlena is absolutely on the money.

This is where I get confused. How was Stacey's death "the most graphic way" possible? I usually can't handle the violence even on shows like CSi--not remotely, and I didn't find her accidental ice death even slightly over the top graphic.

The biggest problem with this new shift to villains having to be more and more evil is that it makes their actions less and less compelling, because there is no real counterweight, it's all just dead. Like that whole KAD killer story last year. Powell and Rebecca went around killing or trying to kill a slew of characters, yet in the end, the whole thing was greeted with a shrug by most of Llanview. The same happened with Jessica's latest kidnapping.

Yeah, i many ways it's a sad throwback to the cartoon villains of DAYS and GH in the 80s. Soaps have done fine without villainous masterminds who rise from the dead...

Soaps were once very moral, almost black and white in their morality. AMC's Greg and Jenny were good, Liza was bad. Liza could scheme and scheme for ways to make Jenny miserable but in the end love would conquer all and the badguy would meet defeat. On OLTL just think of the various bad guys over the years: Clint's mother, Jaime Sanders, Elizabeth Sanders, Gabrielle, Michael Grande, Ivan Kipling...the bad guy always faced their comeuppance in one way or another. I think the strict morality is what gave the villains the ability to commit their deeds, because the villains had this well defined context with which to work in and contrast with the other characters. When the order breaks down (like it has in recent years) you get chaotic and nonsensical writing like the kind you see on GH. There the villains get ever more evil because there is nothing to contrast them to. And then because there is no morality there is no sense of the villain paying so order can be restored in time for the next story to start.

Just my 2 cents.

I agree with this. But I don't think that Claudia had to pay because she was a woman. She had to pay because she was an enemy. Sonny and Jason are portrayed as the heroes and all of their enemies have to pay one way or another. They can go to jail like Anthony or they are killed like Claudia, Trevor, Lorenzo, Manny, the Russians, etc. And that is the real problem, that the show's two heroes are mobsters. Some of the other shows still have good guys in the role of the town hero.

Maybe because there is no moral code. I think some here have been reading way to many conspiracy theories about how the soaps current TPTB hates women. Instead of saying that the women are purposely being written as weak and needy or that female characters get more sadistic death scenes than men, you should look at each character and each story individually. Lumping things (as in certain kind of characters, stories, etc) together can be very dangerous.

I wouldn't go as far as to say they hate women but there has been a lot of sexism and while you can't always lump things together patterns and trends in writing are not meaningless. I don't think the sexism is necessarily a conscious thing. TPTB probably don't intentionally set out to make women look bad or write them as weak but when people write scripts or stories there views and/or subconscious feelings about a lot of things show up in their writing whether they realize it ot not.

Edited February 21, 201015 yr by RomeAt50

I can only take so much of this woman's elitist "Thinking" opinions on soaps. However, I did read this article. To me, it comes across as talking out of both sides of her mouth. Was she sickened when Justus Ward was shot to death for no reason on GH? Was she terribly appalled when Nash Brennan fell through a skylight and crashed down in a shower of glass shards to the floor below on OLTL? Was she horrified when Greg Madden was buried alive in his own excrement and subsequently killed (a story written by a female writer to punish the character for... OMG... putting a baby up for ADOPTION?!?) on AMC? Was she also disgusted when Josh Madden was gunned down so his organs could be harvested?

Grisly death is grisly death. Humans are humans -- regardless of if one has a penis or another has a vagina. This double talk is ridiculous. Why is brutally killing off female characters "because they deserved it" an act of misogyny and inhumanity, yet killing off male characters as brutally and sadistically for the same reason doesn't cause an uproar of superiority and criticism? Death is a fact of life, and, last I checked, doesn't check your anatomy before striking. Men die. Women die. Some die peacefully, others die tragically. Are all female characters who are killed off on soaps -- good or bad -- supposed to die quietly and off screen?

Claudia's death? Yeah, it was brutal. But let's not forget she was murdered by the teenage boy she had shot in the head in the botch hit she ordered. It's not as if Michael just snapped and bashed her head in because he thought his stepmother was a naughty soap bitch. I'm sorry, but crying "misogyny" when the violent consequences of her self-imposed violent actions come back to haunt her is insulting.

I would be more inclined to support her opinion on not wanting to see such graphic deaths on soaps if it wasn't for that one, glaring, bit of of bias.

Then again, I gave my brain the night off. I might have a different view when I resume "Thinking."

Edited February 21, 201015 yr by R Sinclair

Grisly death is grisly death. Humans are humans -- regardless of if one has a penis or another has a vagina. This double talk is ridiculous. Why is brutally killing off female characters "because they deserved it" an act of misogyny and inhumanity, yet killing off male characters as brutally and sadistically for the same reason doesn't cause an uproar of superiority and criticism?

I think its because as other posters pointed out it seems to occur more with female characters in the first place. Most of the disturbing deaths I can recall involved women. There are exceptions like Greg Maddens awful death. I didn't even like the character and I hated watching that. And I recall quite a few people were vocal about hating those scenes.

Edited February 21, 201015 yr by RomeAt50

The same happened with Jessica's latest kidnapping.

"...Jessica's latest kidnapping." What a sad phrase.