27 minutes ago, MichaelGL said:

Guiding Light was my number one soap, but I must admit I hated how the oldest soap on the airwaves had almost zero elderly actors who had been on the show for decades. I envied how soaps like DAYS and ATWT kept much of their elderly actors. 

Kobe and Long deservedly get a lot of flack for the cast turnover that happened from 1983-85, but honestly the problem started much earlier, as earlier eras didn't leave them with many beloved older actors/characters who could really serve as tentpoles for the show. I guess they could have brought back people like Barbara Berjer (Barbara Norris), Robert Milli (Adam Thorpe), or Millette Alexander (Sara McIntyre), but none of them had very deep relationships with the characters driving story in the mid-80s. 

15 hours ago, chrisml said:

I don't know about these GL fans mentioned above. If they're not acting improperly and illegally, more power to them. Life is hard enough, and if it brings them joy to feel like family with Zimmer and Newman, let them.

The problem was when those fans dictate story decisions when they write in en masse to support a certain actor...and when that actor has them on speed dial to whip up a frenzy, as Kimmer was known to do.

However, I think the real problem is that the TPTB gave into the Jevas.the Mattessas ,.the Mannys the Brad Coles. Everyone disses Gautman for saying he didnt care what the fan letters say, we needed more people like that (not that I agreed with any choices he made!)

25 minutes ago, Mitch64 said:

The problem was when those fans dictate story decisions when they write in en masse to support a certain actor...and when that actor has them on speed dial to whip up a frenzy, as Kimmer was known to do.

However, I think the real problem is that the TPTB gave into the Jevas.the Mattessas ,.the Mannys the Brad Coles. Everyone disses Gautman for saying he didnt care what the fan letters say, we needed more people like that (not that I agreed with any choices he made!)

Now, here you go, trying to turn a negative into a positive. When Goutman said that, he was being incredibly arrogant. He even said he KNEW better what the show needed better than any fan ever did. Later he tried to walk that back & say what he meant was the soap press & not the real fans but that was a lie. When he said it, the journalist even gave him a chance to take it back. She literally asked him if he was SURE he wanted to say that & IN THOSE WORDS. (I know this because I was in a group of a few people she talked to immediately after the Q&A. It was totally fresh in her mind. Plus, of course, it was on tape.)

I agree with you that there have been times & people who did know what was needed. It's not my intent to argue with you about Goutman at the end of AW or the end of ATWT. But, without the fans, there's no show. Far be it from me to ever take up for the Mannys or Reva's Army. 

3 hours ago, Sapounopera said:

The show becomes good again when Robert Calhoun arrives in late 1989. He was the show's last good producer.

Robert Calhoun era was June 1989 to July 1991. Those who have seen Soap Opera Digest Best and Worst of 1989 recall that GL was Most Improved show that year, and it was thanks to Robert Calhoun.

2 hours ago, Contessa Donatella said:

Now, here you go, trying to turn a negative into a positive. When Goutman said that, he was being incredibly arrogant. He even said he KNEW better what the show needed better than any fan ever did. Later he tried to walk that back & say what he meant was the soap press & not the real fans but that was a lie. When he said it, the journalist even gave him a chance to take it back. She literally asked him if he was SURE he wanted to say that & IN THOSE WORDS. (I know this because I was in a group of a few people she talked to immediately after the Q&A. It was totally fresh in her mind. Plus, of course, it was on tape.)

I agree with you that there have been times & people who did know what was needed. It's not my intent to argue with you about Goutman at the end of AW or the end of ATWT. But, without the fans, there's no show. Far be it from me to ever take up for the Mannys or Reva's Army. 

We could have a whole thread on this topic..However, I think that there is an in between...reading and listening to the audience (which I put in a different category then the fans) and parsing out what they want...(meaning, dumping the crazy Jeva/Manny/Mattessa's input...you know they knew who the same people writing in were.)

I think they really listened to a really dumbed down portion of the audience "I could watch Pharley everyday having cute scenes, dont ever break them up" which made a dumbed down show.

5 hours ago, kalbir said:

Robert Calhoun era was June 1989 to July 1991. Those who have seen Soap Opera Digest Best and Worst of 1989 recall that GL was Most Improved show that year, and it was thanks to Robert Calhoun.

Robert Calhoun is one of the daytime people who fascinates me. Worked on AW, Texas, ATWT & GL, great start there! He & his male partner Farley Granger were out before anyone else had yet thought of being out. He made a statement to Maureen Garrett about the rape that flabbergasts me. 

If you've not seen it, you might enjoy this interview. 

 

3 hours ago, Mitch64 said:

We could have a whole thread on this topic..

I do so agree. 

3 hours ago, Mitch64 said:

However, I think that there is an in between...reading and listening to the audience (which I put in a different category then the fans) and parsing out what they want...(meaning, dumping the crazy Jeva/Manny/Mattessa's input...you know they knew who the same people writing in were.)

Yes, I definitely think that there are people who are audience who should be listened to & there also are people who should NOT!!! 

3 hours ago, Mitch64 said:

I think they really listened to a really dumbed down portion of the audience "I could watch Pharley everyday having cute scenes, dont ever break them up" which made a dumbed down show.

Personally, and this is a criticism, I think that they started it, dumbing down the shows & then when they got a dumbed down audience for their trouble, just let it become a vicious cycle. 

Calhoun was the one who suggested Marland for ATWT, and the one who saw something impressive in Nancy Curlee and Stephen Demorest's work to promote them to HW's at GL. 

He was an EP that understood that there was no show without functional and thoughtful stories. 

Edited August 22, 20241 yr by BetterForgotten

1 hour ago, BetterForgotten said:

Calhoun was the one who suggested Marland for ATWT, and the one who saw something impressive in Nancy Curlee and Stephen Demorest's work to promote them to HW's at GL. 

He was an EP that understood that there was so show without functional and thoughtful stories. 

Totally agree. Calhoun/Marland era As the World Turns was that show's creative peak, and Calhoun/Long/Curlee era was GL's last golden era.

1 hour ago, BetterForgotten said:

Calhoun was the one who suggested Marland for ATWT, and the one who saw something impressive in Nancy Curlee and Stephen Demorest's work to promote them to HW's at GL. 

He was an EP that understood that there was no show without functional and thoughtful stories. 

Was Calhoun at ATWT for only two years?  That's an amazingly short amount of time.  What years was he there? 

12 minutes ago, Mona Kane Croft said:

Was Calhoun at ATWT for only two years?  That's an amazingly short amount of time.  What years was he there? 

He was EP at ATWT for about 4 years from 1984-1988. He then left/took a break and became EP of GL from 1989-1991. 

19 hours ago, DRW50 said:

 It's interesting how many different regimes capitalized on the Ross/Vanessa history, even when they didn't have a great deal of plot together. 

The whole Lujack music saga and the characters it brought in is a great example of how much GL was trying to be like anything but itself at this point. Imagine what the Dobsons could have done with Frances Fisher. 

Miss Sally is just an exhausting watch.

I'm so used to seeing Ross with the same hair year after year that when it's not the same (like in this period), I just get weirded out, like when your father tried to grow a mustache. 

I have no idea why they did all this buildup with Simon and India when he then went after Jessie. Was it down to Pam Long leaving?

Well, at this point, Ross is the only lawyer in town. I did find his comment that Billy tried making him an errand boy at Lewis a little strange, but I haven't watched much of the brainwashing part of the story. Billy and Ross were usually ok with each other. 

Imagine what the Dobsons could've done with Mary Kay Adams. Wasting her on Flock of Seagulls guy---oy vey.

LOL---I enjoyed Sally dishing out hard truth to Reva. FYI in about six weeks, Reva forces Sally and HB to tell to Billy that he is their son. Sally's right, Reva's out for Reva.

4 minutes ago, P.J. said:

Well, at this point, Ross is the only lawyer in town. I did find his comment that Billy tried making him an errand boy at Lewis a little strange, but I haven't watched much of the brainwashing part of the story. Billy and Ross were usually ok with each other. 

Imagine what the Dobsons could've done with Mary Kay Adams. Wasting her on Flock of Seagulls guy---oy vey.

LOL---I enjoyed Sally dishing out hard truth to Reva. FYI in about six weeks, Reva forces Sally and HB to tell to Billy that he is their son. Sally's right, Reva's out for Reva.

When I imagine what the Dobsons could have done, it is about Jan. 1993 when they & P&G  had agreed that they would head to Brooklyn & HW Another World. Unfortunately NBC blocked it. They wanted P&G to sell AW to them. Like that was really gonna happen. 

12 hours ago, MichaelGL said:

Guiding Light was my number one soap, but I must admit I hated how the oldest soap on the airwaves had almost zero elderly actors who had been on the show for decades. I envied how soaps like DAYS and ATWT kept much of their elderly actors. 

ATWT in particular was blessed to keep a core of characters for so long, and in some cases (like Susan) welcome them back. You always felt connected because of Bob/Kim/Lisa/Babs/Nancy/John. Sometimes it's just good to be lucky. What might've changed had Chris Bernau and Michael Zaslow lived? The what ifs are endless.

9 hours ago, prefab1 said:

I think you've watched more of this era than I have. Don't things only get worse in 1986, after Long leaves?

Others here have watched more than I have, but I do think Long is a better basic writer than any who take over after her in the '80s. I think the show she wrote by 1984 and especially 1985 was already very alien to what GL had once been, but as others have said, that may be down to Gail Kobe, as her writing felt more in tune with GL when she returned. 

There are some positives - Chris Bernau's return, and the Dinah story, which was very important for Vanessa as a character (and likely helped keep JvD on the show in some lean years). 

2 hours ago, P.J. said:

ATWT in particular was blessed to keep a core of characters for so long, and in some cases (like Susan) welcome them back. You always felt connected because of Bob/Kim/Lisa/Babs/Nancy/John. Sometimes it's just good to be lucky. What might've changed had Chris Bernau and Michael Zaslow lived? The what ifs are endless.

Charita Bauer also died at only 62. When you think of Helen Wagner, her compatriot, she lived to 91 and was still working until very near the end. That hurt GL a great deal. 

15 hours ago, Mona Kane Croft said:

Was Calhoun at ATWT for only two years?  That's an amazingly short amount of time.

It really was the best of Marland during those years. I don't know if it was Calhoun or generally the show being kind of all over the place when Marland got there, but after Calhoun left the worst of Marland showed itself, depressing stories, stilted conversations, overly seriousness ruled the day...(I still can't believe that Lilith and Shannon's scraggily shrunken head made it in to give the show a break from conversations about "honesty in a relationship" and "What will Lily think of this!"

 

12 hours ago, P.J. said:

magine what the Dobsons could've done with Mary Kay Adams. Wasting her on Flock of Seagulls guy---oy vey.

Okay, I did spit my coffee out on that! What DID India see in that boring guy (besides it be plot dictated..) things did take a turn when Alan came back but they didn't really put them together that way...an India/Alan/Hope triangle would have been fun.

 

10 hours ago, DRW50 said:

Charita Bauer also died at only 62. When you think of Helen Wagner, her compatriot, she lived to 91 and was still working until very near the end. That hurt GL a great deal. 

Agreed, that really hurt the show and was the first nail in the coffin...I would choose Bert over Nancy as my go to grandma any day..she really was GL...sweet, funny, kinda corny, self aware, but could get all up in your face when she had it!