8 hours ago, DRW50 said:

Only after all of this did Roger learn that Hart was his biological son, via some woman who was a spy with Roger or something, I don't remember. Roger tried very hard to keep the truth of his role in the farm theft from Hart.

I was not watching the show much during this period. There's something that has always puzzled me about this, maybe someone can clear it up:

Back in the day, Roger had a vasectomy. This is one of the reasons he became so obsessed with Christna (Blake), because she was his only biological child.

Did they just memory hole that? Or did Roger doubt Hart was his kid at first?

I know soap opera vasectomies pretty much ALWAYS fail--i.e. Fletcher's, during this same era. I'm just wondering if this was ever mentioned on screen.

9 hours ago, P.J. said:

 Can someone remind me - why did Vanessa get half custody of Peter? Matt wouldn't have been in the picture yet

When Nadine was married to Billy, she was constantly worried Billy would leave her for Vanessa. (Not without reason, Billy had married her while drunk, and he was constantly making moon eyes at Van. He and Van even slept together while married to Nadine). She kept doing stupid things that sabotaged his trust in her. The breaking point was when Nadine leaked Van's name to a scandal rag. Van had nearly been raped by a business associate named Jack Kiley. She pressed charges, but wanted to keep her anonymity. The creep reporter outted Nadine after the trial was over, and Billy walked out on Nadine.

Nadine hatched a scheme to get pregnant to save her marriage. When she couldn't lure Billy back into bed, she talked a pregnant Bridget into agreeing to give Nadine her baby to raise. It worked---Nadine knew Billy wouldn't walk away from his child. When it all came out, Vanessa realized that Bridget was Peter's mother. Maureen had died, and Bridget was going to ask Ed if she and Peter could move in with him and Michelle. They were having a hard time dealing with Maureen's death, and that discouraged Bridget from asking him. 

Billy meanwhile divorced Nadine in a nanosecond and proposed to Vanessa. Trusting that Billy loved Peter, and they would give the child a good home, Bridget allowed them to adopt Peter. Billy and Van divorced after Billy admitted shooting Roger, and Bridget took Van to court to get Peter back. The case got pretty ugly, with Ross tearing down Van on the stand, and Van's lawyer was ready to do the same to Bridget when Vanessa stopped him. Billy had written a letter from jail saying that Van and Bridget both deserved Peter, and they ended up agreeing to share custody rather than continue the case.

Blake and Hart were not particularly close. There was a revolving door of Harts, and Blake of course had been green with jealousy when Roger found out he had a son. Hart was a "bad boy" after the first recast. OG Hart was a sweet, naive kid devastated to learn Roger was his father.

OGBill was actually born a year before Michelle. When Budig was cast, it totally looked whack.

Oh interesting, I didn't realize Nadine was involved in any of that! She was given meatier storylines back then I see. I can't recall Nadine ever interacting with Van, Bridget or Peter since I've been watching. I guess once Buzz and Lucy came onto the scene, she hasn't really escaped the 5th Street Diner bubble (at least in 1995).  

Well this all makes more sense now, thanks for the background  So I'm guessing Billy is still in prison right now in 95? 

I meant to look up how old Budig was she started GL, as I thought about how the age difference between Michelle and Billy is off now. I will say, Budig came in with an animal backpack, and they were still playing up the nice little girl act. I'm assuming that goes away and they give her something more young adult. Yep, just checked and Budig was 22 and Bryan was 15 in 1995.

 

9 hours ago, DRW50 said:

@alwaysAMC A great read. Thanks.

I think it was only in these few years that Michael O'Leary tried that unfortunate hair, although I may be wrong. It just looked genuinely awful. 

When Rachel Miner played Michelle, she and Bill were close friends, and even had a date, mostly treated as a cute moment showing their family helping them. I assume they had no plans to revisit Bill/Michelle at this point, as Budig looked 10-15 years older than Brian Buffington. 

I had forgotten Alex was the one who blasted the news about Reva. McTavish paired up Hawk and Alex a lot, which I tended to enjoy.

When Hart began on the show, he was very sweet and lived with his grandfather. Roger ruthlessly went after their family farm, leading to the grandfather's death. Only after all of this did Roger learn that Hart was his biological son, via some woman who was a spy with Roger or something, I don't remember. Roger tried very hard to keep the truth of his role in the farm theft from Hart. When Hart found out, he was devastated. Before he left town, he had a one-night stand with Bridget, leading to Peter's conception.

Hart returned about a year later, now clearly a bad boy. He seduced his ex-girlfriend Julie right before her wedding to Dylan Lewis. Bridget exposed the cheating at their wedding. Bridget would later get involved with Dylan. You may have seen him at the start of 1995. During this time Bridget kept the truth from Hart. He likely would have learned but Leonard Staab, who played him, was nearly killed in a hang-gliding accident, leading them to temporarily recast the character long enough to write him out. 

When Hart was first revealed as Roger's son, Blake resented him, feeling that he would take her father's love from her. Only in later years do they become closer.

You aren't wrong about any of the writing for Reva in this story. They went out of their way to give reasons as to why Josh wouldn't get back together with her as soon as she arrived. It did the characters no favors, even if the payoff was eventually worth it.

Thanks, as always  

I do remember a few scenes with Miner's Michelle and Bill around Eve's death and they were hot and cold with each other, dealing with emotions and feelings. I guess this Bill goes by Bill and his dad was Billy? I kept thinking he was Billy too.

Yes! Alex broke the news in a pretty dramatic way, which I loved watching Marj do with her dramatic OTT flair haha. I agree, she and Hawk are pretty funny together, because he just really irritates the crap out of her, but she needed him. During that time, she hired him as her chauffeur and they took the trip out to Goshen, which was pretty funny.

Sadly, I started after Dylan must have left Springfield. I put the pieces together based on the dialogue, as Bridget was still sort of pining over him. One early episode into my viewing, David took Bridget to the blind facility where Dylan living. They never showed Dylan's face, but it was too hard for Bridget to handle and they left. I guess he got into a car accident, was blinded, and left?

Oh that is so sad about the actor almost passing away! I'll have to google that and check out the details. That must have really been hard on the actors at the time, plus finding an emergency recast.

I'm looking forward to seeing how Blake/Hart interact in the coming months!

Thanks as always, @DRW50  

21 minutes ago, DeeVee said:

I was not watching the show much during this period. There's something that has always puzzled me about this, maybe someone can clear it up:

Back in the day, Roger had a vasectomy. This is one of the reasons he became so obsessed with Christna (Blake), because she was his only biological child.

Did they just memory hole that? Or did Roger doubt Hart was his kid at first?

I know soap opera vasectomies pretty much ALWAYS fail--i.e. Fletcher's, during this same era. I'm just wondering if this was ever mentioned on screen.

I don't know the answer to that, but I too am curious, since I didn't realize Roger had one. I was just going to say, you're right about Fletcher!  That was a big moment when Holly found out she was pregnant. Fletcher assumed it was Roger's because of his own vasectomy, which caused him to be really mad for a minute. But, if Roger also had a vasectomy, surely Holly/Fletcher knew this and they would have questioned that as well.

12 minutes ago, alwaysAMC said:

 I meant to look up how old Budig was she started GL, as I thought about how the age difference between Michelle and Billy is off now. I will say, Budig came in with an animal backpack, and they were still playing up the nice little girl act. I'm assuming that goes away and they give her something more young adult. Yep, just checked and Budig was 22 and Bryan was 15 in 1995.

TPTB wanted to move Michelle into the realm of being a sexual creature rather than still being a little girl. As a Rachel Minor fan I resented this. To me they had plenty of time to make Rachel a  sexual creature. Later.

Now about Van & Bridget sharing custody of Peter. This to me was one of Van's finest hours. As it shook out with the judge Van was going to have full custody of Peter, leaving Bridget out in the cold. BUT, Van, in a moment of absolute soap brilliance hit upon this idea of sharing custody. Her suggestion of this compromise was met with acceptance & even appreciation on all sides! Hip Hip Hooray for Vanessa.

 

9 minutes ago, Contessa Donatella said:

TPTB wanted to move Michelle into the realm of being a sexual creature rather than still being a little girl. As a Rachel Minor fan I resented this. To me they had plenty of time to make Rachel a  sexual creature. Later.

Now about Van & Bridget sharing custody of Peter. This to me was one of Van's finest hours. As it shook out with the judge Van was going to have full custody of Peter, leaving Bridget out in the cold. BUT, Van, in a moment of absolute soap brilliance hit upon this idea of sharing custody. Her suggestion of this compromise was met with acceptance & even appreciation on all sides! Hip Hip Hooray for Vanessa.

I love to hear that about Vanessa. I can't wait to see this when I go back and watch pre-95  

11 minutes ago, alwaysAMC said:

I love to hear that about Vanessa. I can't wait to see this when I go back and watch pre-95  

I love sharing this with you!! My personal theory is that Van realized that enough time had passed with Bridget being the one in charge of Peter's life that she had developed a deep & abiding love for Peter & what a waste it would be to just throw that away. She, somehow was unselfish enough to embrace sharing, not just anyone would have been that unselfish. Van in this regard MUST be considered a very special person, don't you think so? I do. 

Edited April 29Apr 29 by Contessa Donatella

20 hours ago, Contessa Donatella said:

I know that you know that I know she was one of the co-HWs at that time. I don't know if you know that I like her, but I do. However, I did not have a problem with Beth having Peyton with Alan. 

Your personal like of her (and is that tied to the Olivia/Nat storyline)  or not does not mean she is always a good writer...I love Curlee and Long, and I like a lot of Marland but I have issues with some things that they wrote...(knowing that the net and production company hands down demands which effect things..) 

You don't have a problem with a semi-incestous relationship that goes against history, came out of the blue, and was just kind of gross as well? Cause Hurst had a hand in it?

3 minutes ago, Mitch64 said:

I love Curlee and Long, and I like a lot of Marland but I have issues with some things that they wrote.

Same here.  No soap scribe, past or present, has a 100% perfect record.  But I think what separates Curlee, Long and Marland (and others) from the hacks (who shall remain nameless) is their ability to give us moments of good-to-great drama even if they are surrounded by dreck.

1 hour ago, alwaysAMC said:

But, if Roger also had a vasectomy, surely Holly/Fletcher knew this and they would have questioned that as well.

Holly should have known. Roger got the vasectomy because the woman he married before Holly, Peggy, insisted on it. 

It's possible no one on the writing and production team at this point of the show's history knew of or remembered this detail. You would think that Zaslow would remember this--he was playing Roger back then (a different actress played Holly at that time)--but I've noticed when actors are interviewed they frequently forget storyline details. WE remember storyline details for decades, but they don't, necessarily. 😄

2 hours ago, Contessa Donatella said:

Van in this regard MUST be considered a very special person, don't you think so? I do. 

Except when she came back from the dead she forgot Peter existed. I HATE what McLaiby did with Bridget (revert her back to being a manipulator only this time with out the humor, self direction and "f*ck it" attitude of the Bridget of old, and instead we get a desperate woman who let Dinah put her down being told she needs plastic surgery.

Bridget had a lot of life in her and the Van/Bridget dynamic was great..and would have been more interesting as Peter grew up Did Reva need ANOTHER long lost son...(of course she did, Kimmer had to eat up more air time...) it should have been Peter coming back as a hell raiser. 

43 minutes ago, Khan said:

But I think what separates Curlee, Long and Marland (and others) from the hacks (who shall remain nameless) is their ability to give us moments of good-to-great drama even if they are surrounded by dreck.

Totally agree on this! And I do say Hurst gave us some good solid scene...(I take it was Hurst and not Kreizman) during the last year...Phillip and Reva talking, ( I LOVE the Reva/Hawk scene on the 4th of July as he makes her stand up with her hand over her heart when the National Anthem plays on a TV baseball game) Ed and Rick joking around while Phillip watches and thinks about his own relationship with his dad..and of course the last week. Its just the stories weren't great.

 

2 hours ago, alwaysAMC said:

But, if Roger also had a vasectomy, surely Holly/Fletcher knew this and they would have questioned that as well.

The whole storyline stank and Holly never recovered. Fletcher's issue would have cast doubt on Chile's parentage (not that I want that loud mouth to have had more airtime...) but no one mentioned it. 

2 hours ago, Mitch64 said:

Your personal like of her (and is that tied to the Olivia/Nat storyline)  or not does not mean she is always a good writer...I love Curlee and Long, and I like a lot of Marland but I have issues with some things that they wrote...(knowing that the net and production company hands down demands which effect things..) 

You don't have a problem with a semi-incestous relationship that goes against history, came out of the blue, and was just kind of gross as well? Cause Hurst had a hand in it?

To me what you are saying has nothing to do with Jill Hurst. And,  BTW, as one example my favorite Otalia scenes are the graveyard leading into the gazebo & they were written by Swajeski. I do not know why you bring up Hurst & try to tie my like of her to this one story. But, you have no  business  making such assumptions about someone else's likes or dislikes. 

Now let's unpack this. #1 Why do you call it incestuous? Cause it's not.

And, it did not come out of the blue any more or less than anything that was written in the modern GL. Its supposed  grossness is totally subjective & your thing, not necessarily anyone else's POV. 

And, last of all, no, of course no one is always good as a writer or anything else.

 

Edited April 29Apr 29 by Contessa Donatella

5 hours ago, Khan said:

Same here.  No soap scribe, past or present, has a 100% perfect record.  But I think what separates Curlee, Long and Marland (and others) from the hacks (who shall remain nameless) is their ability to give us moments of good-to-great drama even if they are surrounded by dreck.

I think what separated those three plus Agnes/Claire/Harding was a passion for writing and creating.  

Plus, they were almost OCD in terms of plotting.  I remember in that post 1988 writer strike article from SOD where Long said before the strike that she knew where each and every character from inside and out all the way to the times of day they went to the bathroom so during the strike, she was anxious about where the strike writers would take the character.

Aside from those choice of words... it showed that they had a passion for their shows and characters.  

If a writer and/or EP has an investment on the show they're on... it will show up in the quality of the writing, sets, lighting, and vibe of the show.

4 hours ago, Contessa Donatella said:

I do not know why you bring up Hurst & try to tie my like of her to this one story. But, you have no  business  making such assumptions about someone else's likes or dislikes

Not an assumption..it was a question or a "supposition," so I should have placed a question mark on that. However, it's not hard to question your likes on Otalia and I have read you credit that to Wheeler and Hurst.

 

4 hours ago, Contessa Donatella said:

Now let's unpack this. #1 Why do you call it incestuous? Cause it's not.

And, it did not come out of the blue any more or less than anything that was written in the modern GL. Its supposed  grossness is totally subjective & your thing, not necessarily anyone else's POV. 

It is quasi incestuous, in much the same way Blake and Rick were. The only thing with that is that Blake and Rick were sorased and when playing brother and sister they were kid actors if they had any scenes at all. Alan's antagonism toward Beth and her antipathy towards him lasted years..as adults (or young adults for Beth..which adds to it..Beth was so young when Alan and she met and then he became a middle aged serve for her) the only reason Alan liked Beth slightly is that he hated Harley more and felt Harley was trash. He paid the step father that raped her money, made it look like she was dead so no one looked for her, etc. Not to mention RR looked every year of his age (no insult in that, its natural) and it was...distasteful to see them making out and banging and them "in love.' (it did get better when she started banging Coop and Alan blackmailed her into marriage again...)Reva and H.B. would have been that nasty if we watched 20 years of them.

I realize that GL was riddled with bad writing from around 93 onward, and ramped up during the Rauch years, but that doesn't make this any better.

11 minutes ago, Soaplovers said:

Aside from those choice of words... it showed that they had a passion for their shows and characters

Good description...I may not have liked all of Long (obscuring the Bauers, and the Reardon's and Reva Obsession) but you could feel her energy when she was writing...I have read several people say, and I remember it too, they knew when she first came back to the show in 86/87 or her first episode after the strike..it was just that kind of energy.Same with Marland, I remember watching ATWT when he first took over and the characters were smarter and more integrated with each other.

6 minutes ago, Mitch64 said:

Not an assumption..it was a question or a "supposition," so I should have placed a question mark on that. However, it's not hard to question your likes on Otalia and I have read you credit that to Wheeler and Hurst.

I loved Otalia. I cited for you my favorite scenes, written by Swajeski. I have talked about many things regarding both Ellen Wheeler & Jill Lorie Hurst. I also loved Jami & the end show music & I could go on & on. So, since you now say this was a question on your part, then the answer is NO, it does not correlate to any one story.

6 minutes ago, Mitch64 said:

It is quasi incestuous, in much the same way Blake and Rick were. The only thing with that is that Blake and Rick were sorased and when playing brother and sister they were kid actors if they had any scenes at all.

Here you in no way explain why you call it incest when there is no incest present, at all.

6 minutes ago, Mitch64 said:

Alan's antagonism toward Beth and her antipathy towards him lasted years..as adults (or young adults for Beth..which adds to it..

So, at one point they did not like each other. So what? People don't change their minds? Of course they do.

6 minutes ago, Mitch64 said:

Beth was so young when Alan and she met and then he became a middle aged serve for her) the only reason Alan liked Beth slightly is that he hated Harley more and felt Harley was trash. He paid the step father that raped her money, made it look like she was dead so no one looked for her, etc. Not to mention RR looked every year of his age (no insult in that, its natural) and it was...distasteful to see them making out and banging and them "in love.' (it did get better when she started banging Coop and Alan blackmailed her into marriage again...)Reva and H.B. would have been that nasty if we watched 20 years of them.

Here you just blather along, still not giving reasons just your impressions, which IMO are entirely subjective, as I have already said.

6 minutes ago, Mitch64 said:

I realize that GL was riddled with bad writing from around 93 onward, and ramped up during the Rauch years, but that doesn't make this any better.

Finally you wind up, more nothing, no sign yet of a reason. Whatever. What you've said is not an answer to what I said. The two literally do not connect. 

Now, frankly,  to me this is boring. Perhaps it is to you, too. Did we get anywhere? No. Is that okay? Yes. 

1 hour ago, Soaplovers said:

I think what separated those three plus Agnes/Claire/Harding was a passion for writing and creating.  

Plus, they were almost OCD in terms of plotting.  I remember in that post 1988 writer strike article from SOD where Long said before the strike that she knew where each and every character from inside and out all the way to the times of day they went to the bathroom so during the strike, she was anxious about where the strike writers would take the character.

Aside from those choice of words... it showed that they had a passion for their shows and characters.  

If a writer and/or EP has an investment on the show they're on... it will show up in the quality of the writing, sets, lighting, and vibe of the show.

I do think that by the '90s, this type of freedom was much tougher to find. McTavish mentioned in her book about Agnes having to adapt as her power diminished, and how McTavish had to do the same by the time she went to OLTL. 

There are some writers who seemed to be able to get a lot of their voice on, like Sheffer or maybe David Kriezman, but I can have some sympathy for Jill Lorie Hurst as by that time I'm not sure if Wheeler was letting go. 

Of course then it gets to a point where I say oh all the bad stuff wasn't hers, which is not a great idea - I am sure she did get some material on, like Otalia, which I was OK with, so that means some of the stuff in the last year or two I would say wasn't good would have ties to her as well.

9 hours ago, DeeVee said:

I was not watching the show much during this period. There's something that has always puzzled me about this, maybe someone can clear it up:

Back in the day, Roger had a vasectomy. This is one of the reasons he became so obsessed with Christna (Blake), because she was his only biological child.

Did they just memory hole that? Or did Roger doubt Hart was his kid at first?

I know soap opera vasectomies pretty much ALWAYS fail--i.e. Fletcher's, during this same era. I'm just wondering if this was ever mentioned on screen.

That's a good question. My guess is they didn't mention it as so much time had passed. I don't remember if Peggy was ever mentioned in these years.

I keep trying to remember if Fletcher possibly being Michelle's father was ever mentioned on the show or if that was just in the Follyworld fic that was being written online around the same time.

9 hours ago, alwaysAMC said:

Oh interesting, I didn't realize Nadine was involved in any of that! She was given meatier storylines back then I see. I can't recall Nadine ever interacting with Van, Bridget or Peter since I've been watching. I guess once Buzz and Lucy came onto the scene, she hasn't really escaped the 5th Street Diner bubble (at least in 1995).  

Well this all makes more sense now, thanks for the background  So I'm guessing Billy is still in prison right now in 95? 

I meant to look up how old Budig was she started GL, as I thought about how the age difference between Michelle and Billy is off now. I will say, Budig came in with an animal backpack, and they were still playing up the nice little girl act. I'm assuming that goes away and they give her something more young adult. Yep, just checked and Budig was 22 and Bryan was 15 in 1995.

 

Thanks, as always  

I do remember a few scenes with Miner's Michelle and Bill around Eve's death and they were hot and cold with each other, dealing with emotions and feelings. I guess this Bill goes by Bill and his dad was Billy? I kept thinking he was Billy too.

Yes! Alex broke the news in a pretty dramatic way, which I loved watching Marj do with her dramatic OTT flair haha. I agree, she and Hawk are pretty funny together, because he just really irritates the crap out of her, but she needed him. During that time, she hired him as her chauffeur and they took the trip out to Goshen, which was pretty funny.

Sadly, I started after Dylan must have left Springfield. I put the pieces together based on the dialogue, as Bridget was still sort of pining over him. One early episode into my viewing, David took Bridget to the blind facility where Dylan living. They never showed Dylan's face, but it was too hard for Bridget to handle and they left. I guess he got into a car accident, was blinded, and left?

Oh that is so sad about the actor almost passing away! I'll have to google that and check out the details. That must have really been hard on the actors at the time, plus finding an emergency recast.

Jean Carol mentioned in her ill-fated attempt to stay that she had worked with so many characters and no longer did. Another gift from JFP (I would blame Buzz, but Buzz was a fictional character...but I'll give him some blame anyway...).

Bill was called Little Billy until 1993 or 1994, when he wanted to be called Bill.

There was some storyline, I don't really remember it aside from reading about it in books, where Dylan as well as Nadine's boyfriend Carroll were working for some trucking gang. I think they may have been responsible for his blindness, although Ed, who had relapsed around that time, was suspected.

A number of Leonard's friends and co-stars are still close with him - Jocelyn Seagrave (who played Julie) is still close with him and has done interviews with Locher Room and elsewhere about him.

Edited April 29Apr 29 by DRW50