I don't watch for good scenes when the overall storylines are so problematic and useless.

Needless to say, outside of Beth Maitland, this whole Colleen storyline is leaving me cold. I don't feel any sort of emotional impact from it. Maybe it's because these same writers ignored the character for months leading up to her death, so whatever attachment I had to her before (regardless of who was in the role) was dead. but perhaps that was their intention - to beat the character down so bad that people would look past their stupid decision.

And of course, compared to way I felt when Cassie died, this is absolute [!@#$%^&*]. And I KNOW Colleen's death won't have the same longterm impact that Cassie's had. Just another decision from these writers we'll be asking ourselves "what was the use?" soon.

Again, because I get accused of cheerleading...I agree with every word you say above. ALL I am saying is that there were positive standout moments for me this week...and (unlike you and most others at SON) that was actually enough for me.

Mark, I was looking forward to a real rivalry between Nick and Adam when CE was in the role (I gave up on that after the forged diary story, when the propping was so obvious as to who our hero was supposed to be, but I was hoping that might change eventually), but MM just seems so disconnected from everyone.

Again, totally correct. But now (small contrivance) Adam is "free", and he's starting to mix it up. I think they will now begin to correct the disconnection. It seems to me that Adam's "unredeemable" acts (like Victor's imprisonment of a rival in his basement, where he fed him rats) are all about setting the template for Victor the Second. Muhney has not yet been allowed to show many colors beyond his plotting. That said, I think he has done especially well playing the "I'm sorry" subtext with Eileen.

Michael Muhney is horrible, and way too over the top.

I'm over the Adam character and newer spoilers don't give me any hope for any "redemption arc."

I don't think we're ever going to see Adam find Jesus and fight for the cause of peace.

I do think he's going to be in a relationship with Ashley. (No spoiler, just obvious speculation). And I do think he's going to fall in love with her. And I do think that is going to make him desperate to keep concealing all the horrible things he has done. I think Adam for the next few years is going to be like Phyllis in her early years--a constant desperate attempt to keep his dirty secrets under wraps.

I wonder if they will even reference Adam's "experimentation" with another boy?? It seems to me that is something Ashley needs to know before she embarks on her love-life with Victor Adam Newman!

I'm still wondering why or how TPTB made these story choices concerning Patty and Adam.

Adam should be living with (or married to) Heather right now (CE's version) and fighting with Nick and Victoria at Newman and wrestling with this feelings of abandonment with Victor.

Mary Jane's identity should still be a secret from everyone in GC. She should be working at Jabot, carrying on a torrid affair with Jack (him falling in love with her) and planning her revenge (non-life threatening) against him.

Why make them both nutso-freako-unhinged crazy people? Now that I know more of Sheffer's approach to writing and his need to maker sure his male characters have "balls", I can only assume that's why they didn't make Mary Jane a stronger, saner woman. If she were allowed to get her revenge on Jack, Sheffer would probably consider the character neutered or some crap.

These characters had much promise to be the next generation villans, and they've ruined them.

I'm totally on board with the general consensus that these "nutso-freako-unhinged crazy" twists should not have occurred.

I am totally in disagreement that this has any long-term implications.

For Patty, it seems clear to me that we'll find out she had an abusive relationship in Eau Claire and elsewhere (maybe more than one) and that it twisted her further. She was disfigured and near the edge of reason when Victor found her. Then, this took a girl who basically started out as weak and unhinged (Patty shot Jack), was rendered further nuts by isolation and abuse, and then loaded and twisted by Victor. I think she'll be off canvas, treated, and come back for a "healing arc". I welcome this. I welcome her desperate attempts to make amends and rebuild her life. (I also like Kevin Fisher, at least until the Chipmunk).

For Adam, I think the road is harder. I hope the show has the balls to basically NOT "redeem" him, but to have him show his "Hope" side, and to play that battle. I want to see his loving of Ashley (so wrong, but it feels so right) make him struggle to be a better man.

I also think (as I have said before) that I think this is an easy story to write if they want. I think stepdaddy Cliff was secretly abusive, and threatened to kill Hope if Adam didn't keep quiet and also have sex with him behind the barn. Blind Hope could have missed this...but it also would have twisted Adam...made him very compartmentalized and...yes...a little sociopathic.

But, as an adult survivor of childhood sexual abuse, it could lead to the ultimate redemption and healing. And yes, those are the kinds of stories I love to see. Growing stronger through adversity....

Gloria/Jeffrey/Amber/Eden/Jt/Victoria/Abby/Deacon could all be written off and there would still be plenty of characters and stories.Plus it would leave room for some new characters and returns

How about

Nate

Scott

Diane/Kyle

Keemo

Dina

Matt Miller

Mac's mom

chloe's dad etc

All of these characters would tie into existing characters and open up new stories and possibilities.

Nate would never return under these writters. Even if he did we probably only see him once every three months to show us that he has a crush on darling Lily. Because they never grew up around each other as cousins.

I do want Kyle to return & maybe Chloe dad with a family.

The vets were made of win on Thursday.

Beth Maitland

Jess Walton

Jeanne Cooper

Eric Braeden

Eileen Davidson

Mel Scott

Doug Davidson

Thad Luckinbill

Greg Wrangler

Heinle & Morrow were embarrassing.

I have no intention of watching Adam and Ashely in any relationship after he burnt her unborn fetus, mislead her that she was still carrying it, and tortured her for MONTHS, and yes, mind raped her. The writing for women is already problematic on this show, I don't need to see anything like that.

Adam needs to written off as going to prison for a while like Michael. Only the character can only come back with a better recast, Michael Muhney isn't cutting it.

The vets were made of win on Thursday.

Beth Maitland

Jess Walton

Jeanne Cooper

Eric Braeden

Eileen Davidson

Mel Scott

Doug Davidson

Thad Luckinbill

Greg Wrangler

Heinle & Morrow were embarrassing.

Too bad the stories aren't made of win.

Edited September 25, 200916 yr by Y&RWorldTurner

Again, because I get accused of cheerleading...I agree with every word you say above. ALL I am saying is that there were positive standout moments for me this week...and (unlike you and most others at SON) that was actually enough for me.

I liked seeing Traci/Ashley and Traci/JT at Colleen's bedside. Traci/Ashley holding vigil was particularly touching. IA that there were a lot of good moments this week. It was enough to make me glad I was watching. I just wish their were more of those kinds of scenes and that they lasted longer. I don't know. Maybe I've fallen into the ranks of soap fans that are just never happy, but I just can't helping thinking there should be more of the family scenes and less of some of the gruesome stuff.

I'm also really annoyed that Nikki seems to be giving Victor a pass, but that is completely in character.

Edited September 25, 200916 yr by Juliajms

Mark, the problem for me in any area involving Adam/Ashley, that takes it beyond a realm of disbelief you have to have for soaps, is that for months, Adam had her examined by a man who had a history of molesting and violating his female patients. I have a feeling that perhaps someone at Y&R did not quite see this as something which was a big plot point, I think they just decided they could use that as the reason since he was an OBGYN, but any reason they may give for the man Adam has become, I still can't get that out of my head.

I guess one can say that being a soap viewer means accepting awful things before a couple gets together, but never have I seen anything like this. It would be like Eden Capwell getting involved with the gynecologist who raped her.

I don't think it's about Jack not being neutered. Jack's already neutered. He loves a woman who has no use for him. He's regularly castigated by his family as being a bad person. He was raped by Mary Jane and this was treated as no big deal.

I think MJ is this way because they need her to drive plot. The "good" characters can just react. It's the same with Adam. He has to drive the plot. This is also done to remind us that Nick is the hero, to make sure Victor isn't the big heavy ,and also to make sure that this potential legacy character can never be any type of threat to Nick or Victor.

Point taken IRT Jack. However, I think the characters can drive plot without going off the deep end. It's called more intelligent writing and we're not seeing that on Y&R these days.

I'm totally on board with the general consensus that these "nutso-freako-unhinged crazy" twists should not have occurred.

I am totally in disagreement that this has any long-term implications.

For Patty, it seems clear to me that we'll find out she had an abusive relationship in Eau Claire and elsewhere (maybe more than one) and that it twisted her further. She was disfigured and near the edge of reason when Victor found her. Then, this took a girl who basically started out as weak and unhinged (Patty shot Jack), was rendered further nuts by isolation and abuse, and then loaded and twisted by Victor. I think she'll be off canvas, treated, and come back for a "healing arc". I welcome this. I welcome her desperate attempts to make amends and rebuild her life. (I also like Kevin Fisher, at least until the Chipmunk).

For Adam, I think the road is harder. I hope the show has the balls to basically NOT "redeem" him, but to have him show his "Hope" side, and to play that battle. I want to see his loving of Ashley (so wrong, but it feels so right) make him struggle to be a better man.

I also think (as I have said before) that I think this is an easy story to write if they want. I think stepdaddy Cliff was secretly abusive, and threatened to kill Hope if Adam didn't keep quiet and also have sex with him behind the barn. Blind Hope could have missed this...but it also would have twisted Adam...made him very compartmentalized and...yes...a little sociopathic.

But, as an adult survivor of childhood sexual abuse, it could lead to the ultimate redemption and healing. And yes, those are the kinds of stories I love to see. Growing stronger through adversity....

Mark - I so enjoy reading your speculative back-stories for the characters on this show. And the ones you have written above for Adam and Patty would be great to watch. However, given the history of these writers I'm not so sure they will even bother to fill us in on why Adam and Patty have become who they are. I'm saying that because historically, these writers have never shown any interest in giving filling in the pieces of the characters for us. Adam, Patty, Chance, Mac, Murphy, Phillip III have all huge gaps of time that have never been account for. Why is that? The only time I have witnessed them attempting a backstory is for characters that have already an established one like Kevin or Devon (and barely that for Devon).

I liked seeing Traci/Ashley and Traci/JT at Colleen's bedside. Traci/Ashley holding vigil was particularly touching. IA that there were a lot of good moments this week. It was enough to make me glad I was watching. I just wish their were more of those kinds of scenes and that they lasted longer. I don't know. Maybe I've fallen into the ranks of soap fans that are just never happy, but I just can't helping thinking there should be more of the family scenes and less of some of the gruesome stuff.

I'm also really annoyed that Nikki seems to be giving Victor a pass, but that is completely in character.

IA Julia. Well said.

I have no intention of watching Adam and Ashely in any relationship after he burnt her unborn fetus, mislead her that she was still carrying it, and tortured her for MONTHS, and yes, mind raped her. The writing for women is already problematic on this show, I don't need to see anything like that.

I wouldn't have picked what you're describing...but I'm already (personally) seeing Muhney and Davidson transcend it. The burgeoning relationship I perceive would not have worked with Engen--that would have seemed more like a "mother/son" dynamic. With Muhney, the chemistry is right there (IMO).

I liked seeing Traci/Ashley and Traci/JT at Colleen's bedside. Traci/Ashley holding vigil was particularly touching. IA that there were a lot of good moments this week. It was enough to make me glad I was watching. I just wish their were more of those kinds of scenes and that they lasted longer. I don't know. Maybe I've fallen into the ranks of soap fans that are just never happy, but I just can't helping thinking there should be more of the family scenes and less of some of the gruesome stuff.

I'm also really annoyed that Nikki seems to be giving Victor a pass, but that is completely in character.

Totally agree with what you write above!

Mark, the problem for me in any area involving Adam/Ashley, that takes it beyond a realm of disbelief you have to have for soaps, is that for months, Adam had her examined by a man who had a history of molesting and violating his female patients. I have a feeling that perhaps someone at Y&R did not quite see this as something which was a big plot point, I think they just decided they could use that as the reason since he was an OBGYN, but any reason they may give for the man Adam has become, I still can't get that out of my head.

I guess one can say that being a soap viewer means accepting awful things before a couple gets together, but never have I seen anything like this. It would be like Eden Capwell getting involved with the gynecologist who raped her.

Well, we have no evidence that Taylor was a molester.

What we have is Adam saying his dead friend Skye ALLEGED this.

I realize that if there were nothing there, it seems implausible that Taylor would be playing along. But on the other hand, how can Taylor prove he DIDN'T molest the dead girl?

Again, I would never have put in that molestation bit. Since Skye was into financials, I would say "Skye gave me specific evidence that you defrauded health insurance companies and Medicare over and over again". That would have achieved the same goal without the "yuck".

But it could be that Dr. Taylor is just afraid of a besmirched reputation, and is therefore acquiescing. As for Adam...for all we know (if the molestation is not true)...he MADE UP Skye's allegations.

I like John Rubenstein, and from what I can tell, his subtext for Taylor is actually compassion and a moral compass. So he's been playing against the writing, and that has also worked for me. Putting it all together, I have never believed in that molestation bit.

But, again, I fully admit it was a mistake to write that bit. I am not, however, "stuck" on it, because I think it could be false.

I wouldn't have picked what you're describing...but I'm already (personally) seeing Muhney and Davidson transcend it. The burgeoning relationship I perceive would not have worked with Engen--that would have seemed more like a "mother/son" dynamic. With Muhney, the chemistry is right there (IMO).

In a show with so much gore and mismatched couples, you really want THESE writers (that botch everything) to go in that direction?

I'm afraid Maria or one of her hacks just read you idea and this will in fact pop up on the show in 4 months time. It wouldn't be the first time.

I don't care if actors have chemistry, the integrity of their characters should come first. There is no way in hell Ashley should/could forgive Adam for all he's done to her.

And again, Muhney and his cartoon antics stick out for me. He's very flat and one-note.

Send Adam to prison off screen for a year or two and then recast!

But I'm afraid is too caught up in herself and trying to stick it to Engen that she'll continue to push Muhney, no matter how lame his acting is or her and her henchmen's writing for him is,

Edited September 25, 200916 yr by Y&RWorldTurner

I'm afraid Maria or one of her hacks just read you idea and this will in fact pop up on the show in 4 months time. It wouldn't be the first time. [/LOL]

No problem. Nobody pays attention to me anyway !

I don't care if actors have chemistry, the integrity of their characters should come first. There is no way in hell Ashley should/could forgive Adam for all he's done to her.

And again, Muhney and his cartoon antics stick out for me. He's very flat and one-note.

I probably agree about Ashley's ability to forgive (although she's been forgiving Victor -- so has Nikki -- just fine over the years). But in my mind, Ashley doesn't KNOW what Adam has done.

If you must know, in the storyline in my head (yup--I'll get reamed for 'spec scripts' again) , Adam and Ashley raise the baby they steal from Sharon for the next six years. The six years is chosen very specifically--age Cassie was when she was discovered.. In five years, Grace Turner will return to make amends with Sharon, and she will do so by, eventually, giving her back her SECOND lost daughter.

I'm not having the same reaction to Muhney. I find him different from Engen, but I rather enjoy him....like Pierce Brosnan's Remington Steele or Roger Moore's James Bond. In on the joke, and playing all the drama with a broad wink. Works for me. I would like to see Muhney better plumb deeper emotions, but I find him appealing and engaging even if he doesn't. I think of Muhney as playing a more charming younger version of Victor. I could never have bought Engen doing that...and I liked Engen!

Edited September 25, 200916 yr by MarkH

I wonder if they will even reference Adam's "experimentation" with another boy?? It seems to me that is something Ashley needs to know before she embarks on her love-life with Victor Adam Newman!

This made me laugh Mark. I mean, yes she should know, but it's so far down on the list of things Ashley needs to know before she gets involved with Adam (if she ever does and I'm hoping she doesn't). First she needs to know that he has been trying to drive her insane. That he wore Sabrina's clothes to do it, that he helped Patty, that he let her think she is pregnant after causing her miscarriage, that he let a questionable doctor treat her, let her think she killed Nikki and Sabrina that every word he's said to her in the last 6 months is a huge freaking lie!!. Good god, the list is a mile long. A little Ho-Yay with Rafe hardly even rates on a list Ashley needs to know before she goes there.

Even if the doctor isn't actually a molester/rapist, Adam thinks he is. The only way this might work is if Adam reveals he knew the doctor had never done anything and he framed the doctor. But I think they're just going to forget about this.

Does anyone else think it's kind of sad that after years and years of Nick and Sharon being so caught up in Cassie's death, they barely seem to be bothered about Traci losing Colleen? Instead it's more of the usual poor poor Victor, savior of us all. If I needed any confirmation of the self-absorption and elitism from these two, I got it.

Even if the doctor isn't actually a molester/rapist, Adam thinks he is. The only way this might work is if Adam reveals he knew the doctor had never done anything and he framed the doctor. But I think they're just going to forget about this.

It would have gone a long way towards redeeming Adam (for me, and I admit I'm easy) if he had warned that doctor to keep his dirty paws off Ashley or else. It would have shown a little concern, even while he was obsessed with his revenge and incapable of stopping.

I don't watch for good scenes when the overall storylines are so problematic and useless.

Needless to say, outside of Beth Maitland, this whole Colleen storyline is leaving me cold. I don't feel any sort of emotional impact from it. Maybe it's because these same writers ignored the character for months leading up to her death, so whatever attachment I had to her before (regardless of who was in the role) was dead.

But like I said before... it shouldn't MATTER waht's been with Colleen in the past, your emotion and sadness can just as easily come from your feelings for the character of TRACI, not Colleen. I have always had a huge emotional attachment to Traci, but I suppose if you didn't watch in her main character buildup (1983-87) maybe you might not feel that. But a person SHOULD be able to watch and at least get SOME enjoyment out of good, heartfelt scenes, even if what came last week didn't float your boat. I mean, how the hell do you watch a movie? You've only got 90 minutes, there... no buildup, no months of character development.

But like I said before... it shouldn't MATTER waht's been with Colleen in the past, your emotion and sadness can just as easily come from your feelings for the character of TRACI, not Colleen.

This story hasn't been ABOUT Traci though, and as much as I love her, she's not enough to make it work when the overall story is so meaningless and doesn't pack any sort of emotional punch for me. Mark had similar feelings, and he's been watching since the 70's.

I mean, how the hell do you watch a movie? You've only got 90 minutes, there... no buildup, no months of character development.

Movies are an entirely different format than daytime, that's how.