Y&R: Potpourri Thread 2

[MarkH]

I go out to dinner, and look what happens

I am in total -- LET ME BE CLEAR, TOTAL -- agreement on Maria, and I have no reason to doubt what you say about Hogan and Scott.

But although I am in total agreement, I think these three are truly just three variables in a much larger equation.

Specific to the Thom Bierdz thing, I cannot believe that Maria would undo that huge 80s death simply for a big Friday tag. I think she had some longer-term story plan for Bierdz...anything else makes no sense. I think Bierdz's prickly, uncomfortable manner on screen, plus a general cautiousness about gay storylines, meant that months ago a decision was made not to extend Thom. I do believe that Bloom and Kent are part of that decision.

I can't prove that...but I tend to believe these shows are being ruined by large committees, including the networks, the production houses, and the creative teams.

Yes, you understand. I am enjoying parts of the show. I still have SERIOUS reservations. I view the blame fro this mess as "multi-causal". I think MAB is a big part of it...but I think she's just one (big) part of the machine.

As for the "shambles" part...doesn't it strike you as odd that, more or less, it seems (at least per SON) that all 7 shows are in shambles? When I see such a widespread phenomenon, I have a hard time blaming a single writer.

AGAIN, I'm not absolving Maria of anything! I'm just saying that we could put the Messiah herself in that headwriting position, and it would be the same mess. Because it's a bigger picture.

Alvin, you keep saying "but the Sony/CBS team was in place long before MAB". You're right. And they gave us LML. Where Y&R is today is, in part, an EVOLUTION that started in 1998. And Sony/CBS have been big parts of that evolution.

LOL, LOL. Teaches me to go out to dinner...it's been a while since I did that (usually cook).

I stopped watching AMC and GH regularly in 1983 (but I still watched a lot)...and then I stopped watching altogether in 1987. Cause: Undergraduate and Graduate education :-). I only had time for one show...so I bought my Betamax and made it Y&R. I can't honestly tell you why that was...I don't think it was a "quality" choice...it was a habitual one. I used to watch Y&R with parents, grandmother...and I still talk about it with the whole extended family (aunts, uncles). Y&R was by then the most popular soap in Toronto (and now is the most popular in Canada). So many family and societal and time slot (4:30 airing in Canada) factors went into it.

Those 36 years of history play a role in why I watch Y&R today--still now everyday with others. It's a part of the fabric of my social and familial life.

I think a lot of folks here think I "defend" MAB...but I really don't. Before that (I didn't post here) people accused me of "defending" LML. It's none of that. It's that -- like most soap watchers still around -- my allegiance to the show is borne of a decades-long relationship. And, like any long-term relationship, you have to decide if you can make the commitment to get through the bad parts, because the good parts make it worthwhile.

So, on a day like today, when things were better--when I enjoyed it more--that's a good day.

It's not the manic-depressive/psychotic cycle that Sylph implies. It's that my relationship with the show exists on many levels. The part of me with a decades-long connection loves it...sees it interwoven into the fabric of my life. It's that I can be aware of the awful things, and still enjoy the show for what it has been for me, what it is, and what it could be again.

Does this make any sense?

You know when Rush Limbaugh said of Obama, "I hope he fails".

For me, with Y&R, it is the opposite. It is a constant "I hope it succeeds".

[DRW50]

If there were some big story planned for Thom Bierdz which we saw cut down to nothing, then I would be suspicious, but there was nothing. They wrapped up Phillip's family problems within a month. I don't think there was enough time to suddenly, drastically rewrite scripts just because he was rusty oncamera after a 20 year absence. This show has many, many actors who are downright awkward oncamera, including one who is beloved by the show (Michael Muhney), and nothing seems to be done about that. Phillip's main story beyond Cane involved middle-aged and elderly women -- exactly what Y&R does not want to focus on. That is probably why it was wrapped up fast.

Cane had to be revealed and turned into a more sympathetic, cohesive character. That was Phillip's main purpose in returning.

What else was there for Phillip? They never hinted at any love interest. Chance's arrival has never been about his family, it was about Chloe from almost the very first day.

These people don't have the same view of history that we do. They don't see Phillip returning from the dead after 20 years as some huge thing that has to have huge stakes if it is going to be brought back up. They just see it as something to get attention, and prop Cane, and that's what it did.

[alphanguy74]

That's exactly how it is with me as well. And it's something that only a person who watches for DECADES can feel, IMO. It also depends on one's memory. I have a VERY good memory (not as good as it used to be) but I have incredible recall, and that's why I can see bad spots, and remember the bad spots 15,20,30 years ago... and think, "This too, shall pass". It doens't mean I'm not going to watch the show anymore because I'm mad about Thom... I'm just going to hold a grudge for YEARS and bust her chops for it every chance I get. But if she does something good, I'll say so. I guess it was too lofty for me to expect this show to ahve a real gay SL... so my hopes were up REALLY high... and for Thom to do it, was like a dream come true. I don't for one mintue Blame Thom's acting, the trainwreck that is Hayley Erin gets screen time, and she's barely fit for a high school play! And Thom is certainly no worse than Kahlil, and look how much story SHE gets! I'd like to find out just WHO is responsible. In my heart, I HOPE it's not Maria... because on the one hand, I figure she's in charge... but on the other, why would she say she's gonna do all this gay stuff, and then let it drop? To make herself look like a lying bitch? She just might be gutless, and Bloom or someone else might be torpedoeing this. I just don't know. But I don't expect that SOB Nelson to really bring her to task for it, or get to the bottom of it... he's a f$cking gossip columnist, not a real JOURNALIST. But it would be NICE if us fans had someone that could be a true soap journalist, someone we could depend on to get the stories and get them RIGHT.

[Juliajms]

I see this writing team as a student pulling a D in Physics. Just because they don't have a firm grasp of the subject, that doesn't mean they aren't getting some things right. Do we need to ignore the parts that are good and correct for some reason? I don't think so. I'm not going to ignore the parts of this show that I do like just because Maria isn't getting it all right. I see no reason not to mention the good and the bad just because some people mistakenly see doing so as inconsistent.

[DRW50]

My problem with the good on the show is it rarely lasts, and I'm not even sure what they see the good as. For instance, I'm sure they see the good as Adam/Sharon or Adam/Sharon/Nick. Or Ryder. Or the dead-eyed teens. Or Billy huffing and puffing.

[Y&RWorldTurner]

I think we all wish the best for our shows, we all just have different ways of doing it. For a lot of us, we're just realistic, this writing regime is heavily flawed and is NOT the best fit for Y&R, this is the Y&R this writing regime wants and that's not going to change unless they're replaced.

however, I think a lot of us employ a more tough love technique, especially when a show we love has fallen so far, as Y&R has since the Latham era, and then again with Maria Arean Bell, Hagan Sheffer, Scott Hamner, and Paul Rauch.

[MarkH]

Do you watch B&B? Seriously, do you?

Because this great-to-sh!t swing can occur within a single episode!

[Juliajms]

Who is they? If you mean TPTB, I'm guessing they think all of it good. Other than that, I'm sure we all have our own ideas about what is good when it comes to this show. At times I think a near consensus has been reached about some of the bad, but even in those cases some people are going to like what they are seeing. I find the implication that people are "bipolar" when they give different opinions on different days strange.

[DRW50]

I don't think they see it as all good. I think there's a very strong level of investment in some stories compared to others. Any storylines involving the Winters family this year, I could sense the contempt seeping out, especially when Tyra was around. I think they are more invested in certain storylines and characters. For instance, someone seemed VERY proud of the chipmunk. And someone is very devoted to building up Victor the the highest heights, only interfered with briefly because of Braeden contract drama (and even then they made sure Victor did not get too much blame).

Yes, but we spent so much of this year and late last year with the soap press telling us about this dream team of Hogan and Rauch and MAB and the rest. B&B never gets that type of acclaim. These people were supposed to be geniuses. Yet when a story fails, they always manage to avoid the blame. No one says, "Well Brad Bell is not at fault, he had no choice."

[bellcurve]

What does B&B have to do with Y&R?

[MarkH]

For me, what I'm saying is that a lot of the discussion seems to be premised on the idea that Y&R is "different" or "special".

I think that's not really the case...not anymore.

It can now have the same swings of greatness and not-greatness as its sister show.

For me, B&B is a wild roller coaster ride, and I've come to accept that and enjoy it in spite of the inconsistency. I think that is the template by which one might also come to understand Y&R too.

What's the cliche? Your mileage may vary...

[Y&RWorldTurner]

B&B was known for its inconsistency since day one, Y&R on the other hand, was always praised for its long periods of consistency and the fact the show always had an identity and remained true to that general identity, until the Latham era of course, and things have deteriorated even more with Maria, Hogan, and Hamner, IMO.

B&B is also still very much a Bell show with Bell writers, most of the Bell writers left Y&R during the Latham era, and they aren't coming back, which is partly why Y&R lacks its old identity, and an identity in general these days. What is Y&R? Does the show even have a clear vision and identity anymore?

B&B being a sh!t show definitely doesn't negate Y&R's own sh!ttyness. They're both flawed shows at the moment, and for very different reasons, IMO.

[MarkH]

Alvin, I agree with you. To be clear, it's just in my head a way of understanding what Y&R was (different) and what it is (more like B&B and GH...and all the other shows).

That means that folks aren't going to be satisfied with it unless they change their expectations/standards of evaluation.

One thing I'm pretty sure of is that it is never going back to what it was.

[DRW50]

I don't think people are upset about the show not being what it was, I think they are bothered by what the show on its own merits. It's a mess, to the point where even fans here cling to any positive movement in any storyline. We have to practically pat the show on the head.

I have seen this type of stuff before with Rauch shows and Sheffer shows. So I think in many ways they have taken the show and warped it into a caricature of their worst aspects.

There is still a lot of potential at Y&R but with this group around I'm not sure how much will be met. Instead we basically have to go, "Well this is what we have, daytime is near death, Sony is desperate, what to do, what to do."

I've seen soaps with probably half Y&R's budget and nowhere near the level of cast talent that Y&R has and they are managing a better product.

It's great to focus on what Y&R is doing right but unfortunately that seems to be the best they can do. A few good moments, scenes here and there, coupled with weak stories and even weaker characterizations.

[DeeeDee]

Pretty much.