Characters suck, Couples suck, Triangles & Quads suck, story lines suck. The actors are great, but i honestly see some of them starting to phone it in.

Seriously, this show needs to not do another quad and triangle for at least two years after these present messes of quads and triangles wrap. The main quad in particular has caused so many damage to this show and the individual characters.

Seriously, this show needs to not do another quad and triangle for at least two years after these present messes of quads and triangles wrap. The main quad in particular has caused so many damage to this show and the individual characters.

i fully disagree with that.

They just need to do good interesting character driven triangles and quads that do at some point end. That dont suck the life out of everyone involved.

the fact that sharon/nick/phyliss/jack is still going is one of the worst things on this show and one of the best example of whats wrong with it.

If they do another quad or triangle, they have to make sure they don't drag out out on the front-burner for 4 years straight. They have to know how well to pace it. The pacing of the current show seems to kill any storyline they attempt to do.

They can do triangles/quads, but they have to know when enough is enough with them. When they drag them out too long, all rooting value is gone.

If they do another quad or triangle, they have to make sure they don't drag out out on the front-burner for 4 years straight. They have to know how well to pace it. The pacing of the current show seems to kill any storyline they attempt to do.

They can do triangles/quads, but they have to know when enough is enough with them. When they drag them out too long, all rooting value is gone.

Exactly.

Soaps need triangles and quads. The key is to do them well and know when to call it quits.

At this point i would like to know how anyone is rooting for phyliss, jack, nick, or sharon not only as couples but as characters.

What? Someone's complaining about marquise Marie Arène De Belles? No...

marquise? Come on, we all know that MAB is QUEEN.

They would have to look very hard, and I would hope they would have the patience in the process to do so. I think they also need to seperate the EP and HW positions and give them to two different people. I think one person having that much power that ISN'T William J. Bell is a bad thing.

I think they need a strong visionary EP that can come in there, bring the best out of their HW, fight the network for the storylines they want to tell, and take some damn creative risks. Something like what Linda Gottlieb did at OLTL, hell she would be great at this show, even her production values at OLTL were Y&R-esque in the early 90's. Someone like her would also give this show the retooling it so desperately needs. Pairing someone like that would a strong HW would be so ideal for this show.

I fully agree that they need two have separate people for EP and HW. When the chemistry and cooperation between those two works, it can be divine. I wouldn't hesitate to suggest Edward J. Scott for EP, even though it'll probably never happen, not only because he knows Y&R but because of his experience. He can go head-to-head with the network executives and I think he's pretty known for beefing up directing, lighting and acting. As JP said, my God are these people phoning it in. Braeden and Bergman for starters.

At this point i would like to know how anyone is rooting for phyliss, jack, nick, or sharon not only as couples but as characters.

I think Moila likes Phyllis.

At this point, I think I would love a new writer (if none of the remaining greats are attainable). Someone who loves soaps, and who has a gift for writing. Inexperience can be hurtful, but a good writer/manager of a writing team can surround themselves with people who know the genre, and who can assist in the technicalities of daytime writing. Even a fan of the show would do, even though that's not a necessary requirement. Just a fresh writer, with lots of exciting ideas about stories, with love and respect of the genre.

I think Maria is all of those things. This isn't her finest hour, but remember, the show was exquisite from July 2008 until about March 2009. I am hopeful that she'll learn from her mistakes and by about October everyone will be hailing her as the second coming of Bill Bell again.

Although, it would behoove her to replace Hogan Sheffer.

At this point i would like to know how anyone is rooting for phyliss, jack, nick, or sharon not only as couples but as characters.

I'm rooting for Phyllis. Always have, always will.

I'm rooting for Phyllis. Always have, always will.

As a character I'm rooting for Phyllis, but that doesn't mean I want her to get Nick back. It's time for her to move on. At this particular moment I don't care about Sharon or Nick, although I'm sure at some point I will again.

As a character I'm rooting for Phyllis, but that doesn't mean I want her to get Nick back. It's time for her to move on.

Agreed.

I think Maria is all of those things. This isn't her finest hour, but remember, the show was exquisite from July 2008 until about March 2009. I am hopeful that she'll learn from her mistakes and by about October everyone will be hailing her as the second coming of Bill Bell again.

Although, it would behoove her to replace Hogan Sheffer.

The show really got going from November-March and, even then, there were major issues with the pacing, and characterization of the show. It's just that the Kay/Marge story was such soap gold that the mistakes she made mattered less.

At the time the main story I hated was everything with and after Sabrina's death. The need to use a dead woman and child as a ratings stunt, Skye's gruesome, pointless murder, Nikki's self-destruction (which seemed to go on forever and was more about degradation than healing) and Adam reduced to sniveling and making fake diaries. Jack was also downgraded in this story, which would be the continuation of a long period of emasculation for him. Any interest conflict between Victor and Nick/Victoria was instantly papered over, Victor pouting in dark rooms followed by instant healing when Ashley returned (and any chemistry Eileen and Eric had seemed to be gone with this reunion). I thought it was all plot and shock and fake ironic twists (Nikki reunites Ashley and Victor, et al) over good drama.

I think everything that was bad about that story was later put onto most of the canvas, while the good elements from other stories at the time seem to have been left behind, with a few exceptions.

Edited June 30, 200916 yr by CarlD2

The show really got going from November-March and, even then, there were major issues with the pacing, and characterization of the show. It's just that the Kay/Marge story was such soap gold that the mistakes she made mattered less.

I'm not asking this to be argumentative (I swear!), and I preface it by saying I loved the Kay/Marge story from beginning to end, thought it was fantastic. But let's face it - the Kay/Marge story was pretty plot-driven as well. Bringing Marge back for a week or two before the car crash, then the crash. Presumed dead. Kay with amnesia. Falls for the stranger taking care of her. Gets memory back. Reclaims life. I mean, it doesn't get more soap cliche than that. (Again, I loved it - so I'm not putting it down)

So I'm curious what people thought was different about the Kay/Marge story that they find missing now from the show.

I'm not asking this to be argumentative (I swear!), and I preface it by saying I loved the Kay/Marge story from beginning to end, thought it was fantastic. But let's face it - the Kay/Marge story was pretty plot-driven as well. Bringing Marge back for a week or two before the car crash, then the crash. Presumed dead. Kay with amnesia. Falls for the stranger taking care of her. Gets memory back. Reclaims life. I mean, it doesn't get more soap cliche than that. (Again, I loved it - so I'm not putting it down)

So I'm curious what people thought was different about the Kay/Marge story that they find missing now from the show.

I'm going to answer, even though I enjoyed the show before and after this storyline, so I am a bad sample.

Honestly, I think it was the funeral. I think the funeral brought people TOGETHER. I think the funeral was an umbrella for much of the cast. I think that the funeral gave some time for bona fide character-driven moments (Traci-Lauren stands out as the best).

I think that that story played out over many months (so much so that people claimed it 'dragged' at the end)...but that meant that time was taken to play all the beats.

I think what we have now is a budget-driven return to a pretty classic formula at Y&R (character islanding...discreet groups in discreet pods...it enables shooting to take place on a small number of sets, and multiple episodes to be shot in a single session when only a small subset of actors work together).

If you look over the negative comments from the MAJORITY of folks here, the thing that jumps out is not so much "plot driven" and "dark" (although that is there), but "rushed" and "beats not played" and "twists out of nowhere" and "emotional depth lacking because key players aren't there".

The obvious piece of that is "Nikki" right now (that has other reasons)...but not having Victor at the hospital ordering every specialist flown in from around the country doesn't feel right. Not having Kay there to support Nikki through the possible loss of another granddaughter...doesn't feel right.

And so forth.

I really think, personally, that if expense means that they can't use the whole company, then it would be better to trim the company, so that we can reliably expect to see the remaining players.

If you look over the negative comments from the MAJORITY of folks here, the thing that jumps out is not so much "plot driven" and "dark" (although that is there), but "rushed" and "beats not played" and "twists out of nowhere" and "emotional depth lacking because key players aren't there".

I really think, personally, that if expense means that they can't use the whole company, then it would be better to trim the company, so that we can reliably expect to see the remaining players.

Thanks, Mark - that makes a lot of sense. I wonder how much of that was accidental. Like, the majority of the storyline was taking place on Kay's end of things (with Murphy) and they needed to "kill time" on the Genoa City side of things. And "killing time" ended up being really wonderful character scenes that didn't drive plot - but it's what we've all been craving from soap operas.

/\Maybe because that story at least attempted to make Kay's death resonate throughout the entire canvas(sans Winters, of course. They probably had to enter the funeral home through the back door).

Jill and Esther were involved in this power play, having to share the Chancellor Estate. Amber knew something was fishy, Kevin stole her money and felt guilty about it.

Not to mention the fact that Kay's death wasn't some rehashed, boring quadrangle about some oversexed, under 50 crowd.

Kay/Marge's story wasn't some slow paced, five year tour-de-force with twists and turns, you're absolutely right about that. But it wasn't some fast food plot either.

And it was soap cliche. Yes, it was. But most soap stories are cliches. You just have to find a way to at least put some sort of twist on it. At least the Kay/Marge story wasn't Amber/April.