Y&R: Episodes Discussion for the week June 22

[brimike]

See, you just responded with the same post you've been posting for three months now. Over and over and over again.

I understand these are your issues with her storytelling. In fact, they are my issues with her storytelling as well. I'm not arguing any of that.

What I find baffling is this villiainization that happens. Like they're just collecting their paychecks and not doing any work and don't give a crap about soaps and not questioning anything and just laughing about how they can throw any crap on the screen and who cares what the fans think as long as they get good press.

There could be intense conversations going on for the last six months about what a big problem they've had with the Winters clan, and they need to fix it. There could have been storyline ideas that were tossed out for various reasons. There could be long discussions about missing character-driven moments. There could be story ideas pitched that MAB turns down because they're already getting a lot of flack for too many plot-driven stories, and once they finish up the stories they're telling, they have to focus on families and emotions again. She could have been watching all eight daytime soaps in those 20 years she wasn't working in daytime, and be the world's biggest soap opera fan even though that wasn't her career.

There could be any number of these things going on, but none of that is even an option. She's just this delusional, egotistical woman who has no regard for what Y&R was or should be again, and doesn't give a crap what the fans of this show deserve.

I just don't get it. But like I said, on this topic alone, I always feel like I'm beating my head against a wall. It's the same thing that happens to every head writer eventually. The Internet calls for their heads on a silver platter.

All of this has happened before, and will happen again. I don't know why I fight it.

[DRW50]

There was never a scene of Adam finding out Rafe is gay. That happened offcamera.

[loveshery&r]

IMO strange thing for the viewer to have to assume and be done off camera. Since it's pretty important to the story, it should and could have been easily inserted...a one-liner would be better than making the viewer question this. Another example...the only reason some of us know Ashley is not walking around w/ a dead fetus inside her is b/c ED stated such in an interview, but I have seen many viewers that are unaware and questioning this as well.

[classicmoment]

They can't be serious if after Adam crosses that line they breeze over the sexuality issue as if it is nothing. I would guess that's some sort of life changing moment. Much characterization to be done after

[Y&RWorldTurner]

I'm not saying that, she can care, but as long as it doesn't show from my perspective on the screen, I will have problems with her and her "vision" for the show. She can care all she wants, but it doesn't mask the storytelling flaws that have been going on since the start of her regime.

If these problems are apparent over and over again to me, I feel the need to state my dissatisfaction with them repeatedly. I liked the show a lot earlier in the year, I didn't see anyone complaining about that. I'm not the only one, BadZoe, Amello, DeeeDee, and others also liked the show more in the beginning of the year and aren't thrilled with it's current state.

Those conversations could have very well happened, but if these problems haven't been addressed on screen for over a year properly, then something is wrong there.

She also told Nelson in one of her interviews that she didn't keep up much with daytime when she left 20 years ago. At least she was honest with that response, I'll give her that.

Also, many of us have been complaining for months about how all of the main storylines seem to take a dark direction and somehow psychosis/mental illnesses seem to be apart of all of them. Did she not notice this? Even on paper? I would think some lighter main storylines would prove to be a great balance. But instead, stuff like the Scobby gang is comedic for all the wrong reasons. That's another thing, she's failed at incorporating art into this show before, why try it again?

She could very well care about the fans, but until it's showing on my screen, and has been going on for this long, I'll think otherwise.

Also, I don't perceive this constant Shick/Phick flip-flopping as caring about the fans. It seems like she's blatantly putting rabid fanbases against one another, and it's hurting the overall show, IMO.

As I posted before, when she says in interviews, "This is MY and show MY vision", she better expect people to get on her case about it. Her "show", and her "vision" isn't pleasing to everyone. She's confident in interviews, which is fine, I have nothing against it, but with confidence comes detractors with a different interpretation.

What I don't get is, it happens all the time with people like Guza, Higley, Carlivati, Pratt, Passanante, and others, yet somehow, no one cares. Maria Arena Bell seems to be a different issue, when she really shouldn't be, IMO. It could very well be that this show is deeply polarizing right now, you either love it or hate it, but I think from a number of other boards, the fan reaction seems negative, but that's just me. On SON, it's definitely polarizing.

[bellcurve]

These Nick and Sharon scenes(From Thursday and Friday's show) are making me GAG! Seriously.

[DRW50]

I think part of the reason they didn't have Adam find out is because they wanted viewers to be shocked when he came onto Rafe. Character development, plotting which helped make the story more solid, all that took a backseat to the big gotcha moment.

If they're only going to go the shock value route I'd rather they not have Adam in some type of identity crisis over his sexuality. They could have built the story, but they haven't, so I hope they keep on the shallow route.

[Juliajms]

Yes. At the very least Adam should have had a scene telling that doctor not to pull anything with Ashley or he would F%ck him up.

[cara mia]

Adam burned a fetus. THAT doesn't cross a line? He set up Ashley with a doctor who sexually molests his patients. You know that's akin to rape, right? THAT doesn't cross a line? I ask in all humility, what EXACTLY is your definition of crossing a line? Or does anything go if we put it under the "it's just a soap" excuse? Because if it's "just a soap" and anything goes and it's just empty shock after empty shock, why are we even watching this? I personally want to be able to care about these characters that we watch on a daily basis. Y&R is not supposed to be Melrose Place, where we hold all the characters in contempt.

Burned Fetus. Sexually molesting ob-gyns. Poisoned Child. We clearly have a situation here where the writers have lost their collective minds or at least any inkling of good taste, no one in the cast or crew dares to call them on it, and the "critics" are comprised of suck-ups like Nelson.

Oh man, the Adam/Rafe stuff is disappointing on so many levels. No chemistry and with the age difference it's just not working for me. I really want to see Adam somehow thrown in P3's orbit -- I think that might work, and Kay & Victor's friendship as an interesting side element.

[Juliajms]

I think it's a lot more likely that Rafe/P3 will be thrown in each others orbits. I would LOVE to see Adam/P3 as a GC power couple though.

[brimike]

Woah. :-) I wasn't saying you were wrong. Just that different stories affect people in different ways. I'm watching it as kind of a fun, gothic tale of sinister revenge, and in your perspective, it's crossed serious lines. We're both right. It's subjective. It's all good.

I definitely agree with you on the Adam/Rafe stuff.

[brimike]

Sorry, A. I wasn't trying to single you out. I understand people don't like the show right now, and I understand why. Those reasons are very clear, and I don't disagree with any of them. I happen to be more forgiving, but that's just me. But I definitely understand where you're coming from. It wasn't about the points you were making about the storytelling, all of which are valid arguments.

Ouch. She said that? Okay, I stand corrected. :-)

That's definitely true. I interpreted that statement as a defense, since at the time, everyone loved Y&R and people were crediting Sheffer's hiring, since it happened at the same time his name started appearing the credits. So I assumed she was just trying to make it clear that if people loved the show, they should be thanking her. Of course, those words have definitely come back and bit her in the ass around these parts lately. But I can't argue that. You're right, since that's what she said.

Well... I kinda/sorta see that. And to be fair, I take Ron off of that list. Yes, people have seen a serious decline in OLTL (I can't watch it at all now), but it seems people are more forgiving of Ron than they are of the other names you listed - mainly because they've cursed show after show after show after show. It's only natural to place blame at the feet of the people who have failed so many times in the past. People were more forgiving of Sheffer in 2003 as well, since he fumbled, but it was the "first" time he fumbled in daytime, so they didn't see a pattern. Now, Sheffer is up there with Guza, Higley, Pratt, Passanante, etc as "hack" head writers. MAB falls into the same category somebody like Sheffer (Circa 2001) or Sri Rao. They do really well... until they fall. (Rao never had the chance to fail since he was only one season, but you get my point) And there's ALWAYS a fall - you can't sustain brilliance consistently for that long. There's always going to be a story that breaks you instead of makes you. I guess I have more patience because this is MAB's first "fall". And since these things are planned out months in advance, I think if fixes will come, they're (unfortunately) going to come later rather than sooner, because of the timetable daytime runs on.

Thanks for explaining all of that. I do see your point now, and again, I didn't mean to single you out. You know me. I always find the "Carlivatization and Higlifying" of writers to be so damaging on the internet. They're not heroes or villains like the characters they write. Sometimes the stars align and the muse works and it's wonderful. And other times, it's disastrous. I agree with you - there's a lot that's not working for the majority of fans on Y&R right now. But I'm just not at the point of stringing her up and calling her delusional.

I remember when SOD intereviewed all the HW/EP's one year about the previous year - what they liked, what they didn't like, what they would have done differently. I appreciated the fact that they ALL gave honest answers... except one. On the "What would you do differently?" question, Frank Valentini was the ONLY one to respond with "Nothing. The whole year was perfect."

THAT'S delusional.

I would love for someone to ask MAB that same question in January of 2010. Just to see her response.

[Y&RWorldTurner]

I actually think this is her second big fall. As Ann_SS likes to point out, the pre-Sheffer MAB era was an utter disaster of epic boring proportions. Two long "fall" periods in 18 or so months, but that's just me.

I never thought that with her limited soap writing experience and dropping out of daytime for 20 years that MAB was a fit leader for this show anyway, and I still don't. A lot of the problems I see reek of inexperience, but experience is nothing, because much of it is happening in all of daytime too.

[brimike]

I can see that. But again, I never assume anything, and since there was so much wackiness going on at the time (Was MAB writing the show? Was Griffith? What the hell happened post-strike?), I kinda ignore that time period. I very rarely do that, but anything involving Y&R and DOOL in early-to-mid 2008 is a complete mystery to me, and I just tend to avoid trying to point fingers at either show for those seven months, because Griffith/MAB/Scott/Higley/Sweeney... it's all such a fustercluck.

[alphanguy74]

I guess we'll see how it happens. If I were writing this show, this is how I would ahve played this out:

1: in the last 3 months, take about half the time the scoobies took up to develop Rafe, and have us care baout him and root form him.

2: Have things NOW play out just exactly as they are.

3: In a couple weeks, have Heather AND Victor walk in on Adam and Rafe while they are in the MIDDLE of the deed. Rafe can hide under the covers... and Heather will scream, cry, be upset, march over to the bed... screaming... "Who IS SHE??!!! WHO IS SHE!!??" and then pull the covers back to reveal Rafe with nothing but his hands covering his goodies. And THEN cut to VICTOR'S EXPRESSION. Adam can make this big argument telling Vic... "you didn't want me to lock my door, well, this is what you get!" or soemthing to that effect.

4: A few days after that, while Adam is in the bathroom "post-coital" taking a shower... Rafe snoops and lays his hands on the evidence he needs to clear Estella (Rafe would have been shown snooping in previous eppies)

5: Rafe will then go to a hurt and dismissive Heather, and turn in the evidence he has found, and suddenly, the thirst for revenge of a woman scorned will rear it's ugly head, and Rafe and Heather join forces to bring Adam to jusitce. He is arrested, and the climax of the SL has a scene reminiscint of the end of the Kay/Marge SL where Katherine kicks Clint in the balls... in which Rafe confronts Adam while in handcuffs, and tells him, "What? You thought I cared about you? You thought I was going to be another one of your pathetic victims? you thought you were using me? No way Adam... the joke's on YOU... you were MY bitch!"

So that, to me, is what a classic Y&R Adam/Rafe SL would look like.