I think Estella and Rafe are innocent bystanders who the writers have introduced to us to reveal how immoral Adam is.

When he ultimately fails, we'll see him be the little pitiful boy he always was. That'll be the humanizing element.

Estella/Rafe being innocent bystanders doesn't work for me because of Adam/Rafe past friendship. To throw both of them under the bus makes no sense.

If Adam is to be redeemed, his "friend" Rafe might be the only one who is willing to help him get there. But if said friend is under the bus already, well then I just don't know.

Edited May 12, 200916 yr by JSROCKS

Ummm...forget what i said about keeping your avatar forever. I now hear Bea saying horrible, horrible things!!! LOL!

Was that the norm in St. Olaf, Rose?

Was that the norm in St. Olaf, Rose?

LOL!

So far... From what I've read here and seen on my TV screen, Maria Arena sucks in these areas:

1. Romance.

2. New characters introduction.

3. Pacing.

And if she sucks in those areas, good God, what isn't she sucking in?!

See... I would agree with that completely. What's more stressful when you have 3 possible baby daddies? Hmmm. Sharon should be carjacking muthafuckers right about now!

Okay, that was the best line in a decade!

Adam needs some HOPE (pun intended). I'm sure Hope introduced him to morals, so who or what represents that moral compass now that Hope is gone? Is he a sociopath now and he has no remorse what-so-ever?

I like dark Adam I do, but he has become completly and utterly selfish, self serving, cold and manipulative. Where are the Hope likenesses, is he even hurt anymore or is he just completly vengeful?

I think this is why I am appalled at what Adam has become. I would at least like to see his internal war between his Hope- and Victor-sides.

Absolutely none. Why? Because when you start those kind of discussions or ask that kind of question, people go all "It's never going to happen, why discuss it?" on you. And you kind of lose the drive to go on. Furthermore, they can't even hire a proper scriptwriter, let alone head writer. Talented individuals with each passing month have less and less stuff to do in this industry.

All I can say, for me, is that Monday's show (Jill vs. Kay with the governor) was rip-snortingly good (in dialogue, energy, scenes). I do not accept that there was not a "proper scriptwriter". I found Monday's show the most enjoyable thing I watched (daytime, primetime) all day.

!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

And then thanking him for being civil of all things. Are you kidding me? Of course we knew Rafe never stood a chance by going up against Victor but I mean jeez cut these scenes down if it will ALWAYS end the same. I barely commented on his scenes with Neil a few weeks ago, but that's the exact element I did not like KSJ did good but I felt like the necessary emotions were hindered for what-ever reason. Everybody shakes in their boots against Victor (with the exception fo Jack). Unfortunately can't blame that solely on the new creative forces

I don't know. I hear you. But I think it is amazing that Y&R has maintained this recognizable signature baddie, and he continues to drive story the way he does. The current tales of Nicholas, Nikki, Jill, Gloria-Jeff, Adam, Ashley...all of them revolve around Victor (are in reaction to Victor). That is an amazing catalyst. As a writer, I would never want to give it up.

MAB's done some good things, I'm not going to deny it, and the show was fairly stable from November to March, but damn, her weaknesses are so obvious right now. The horrendous pacing, the art storylines, the horrible writing for the Winter's that's been going all for all of her tenure, the obvious backburning of many characters, the lack of real romance, the reliance on crime and mystery storylines, and there's more I'm forgetting.

I do agree about the Winters. I also loved crime/mystery at the start of LML...but I was quickly disappointed. But I very much liked the "mystery" buildup of some current stories. Who is gaslighting Ashley? Who is Mary Jane? Who is that man buying paintings from Adam? That is the way to make a story intriguing. The questions bring you back. I do not see "mystery", in and of itself, to be a bad thing.

"You don't wanna mess wit this bitch!!"

OMG, she should totally get all Dru on people. At least once. I know Case can do it!

That would be a way to bring Rowell back. As Sharon's "spine". As her talk to (it doesn't have to be like John Abbott...it could be a face/voice she encounters when she looks in the mirror). That way Rowell wouldn't have to interact with the rest of the cast, but we'd still see a bit of Dru.

I deeply regret that her family...and Sharon...seldom mention her at this point (even though I realize the writers wish to diminish her impact).

I think they are from the show when she was having her melt down at Phyllis and Nick's house, the day she stole the monkey's

I thought maybe it was Nick's magic penis that cured Sharon!!! helll she did not go all sexaddict/klepto/mental illness after Cassie died or after being kidnapped and strapped with Dy-HO-Mite by the Nazis or when she was toting what she thought was Cameron's body in her car trunk and moving that dead boday all over town only to find out it was her first baby Daddy!!!

Yes, a lot of people have noted this about Sharon's klepto. Why THESE incidents? I can only say these incidents can be sporadic...but, yes, that is a hole you could drive a Hummer through, I admit.

Erections? What about the women? And what about orgasms?

Shouldn't we call them "historigasms"?

^^^and don't forget that line MAB or whoever wrote for Sharon when she told Nick that she had been "having sex with random men and imagining that they are you!" we have no idea how many men she has been shagging, Hell she probably did the same bartender that Jill did!!!

and let's not forget that Sharon has been drinking alcohol like a horse!!!! are we going to be seeing an infant born with FAS???

Good point about the alcohol! Yes, it is interesting to speculate if there are other men we have not seen yet.

Something about Chris Engen's acting is very flat to me, I'm not getting any nuance or vulnerability at all. It's to the point where I'm thinking he deserves to be blind and die.

I see him playing a very soft, gentle farmboy...that's his manner and his self-presentation. I do not feel this evil comes naturally to him...I feel it was forced on him by his unwelcome greeting in Genoa City.

Perhaps MAB should kill someone else off, since it seems as if that is the only time she's at the top of her game.

WorldTurner, I echoed the same questions as you did when I read about this in the spoiler. So far, I still haven't gotten an answer from watching.

Sigh. Yes, at this point, they have to be careful not to overdose on death.

Oh, he's in character alright and he's been this way from jump street. Victor, Jack and even Heather I can see his motivations for revenge, BUT, Rafe/Estella I'm puzzled about.

Moral compass, please, Adams's faking blindness is a real slap in the face to Hope. Of all the afflictions/illness to choose from , he picks the very one she had. I understand why (easier to pull off) , but come on how demented is that. He really must hate his mother.

Yes, Adam has gone very dark. I feel Rafe/Estella are truly innocent victims. That will make it harder to forgive Adam, for me.

But here's the thing this whole thread ignores: Y&R is ENJOYABLE right now.

strokin' her kitty

So to speak.

Y&R is ENJOYABLE right now.

Just because it's more watchable than most other soaps, that doesn't take away from its general mediocrity.

This show has some major problems that aren't being addressed by TPTB.

Edited May 12, 200916 yr by Y&RWorldTurner

I don't know. I hear you. But I think it is amazing that Y&R has maintained this recognizable signature baddie, and he continues to drive story the way he does. The current tales of Nicholas, Nikki, Jill, Gloria-Jeff, Adam, Ashley...all of them revolve around Victor (are in reaction to Victor). That is an amazing catalyst. As a writer, I would never want to give it up.

Don't get me wrong I completly agree. I have a love hate relationship with Victor Newman. He is not my favorite character but I have always thought that as a writer I would love writing for him. From my daytime experience I find him to be the most complicated character. Witht hat said it's not about changing Victor, it's about how much is allowed to revolve around the character. That Nikki scene, not necessary, that Rafe scene ehhh. The Neil (leaving Newman) Victor scenes left for me something to be desired. It was good but I was waiting for more (I don't know if that is good or bad I guess). I just feel too many times other characters are hindered to maintian or build up VN. I guess I have to live with it as that almost equates to what Y&r is

Edited May 12, 200916 yr by classicmoment

I'm an artist who obviously loves and appreciates art someone suddenly appears to me oneday at my art show buys up all my art leaves comes back after and within the span of a few minutes I find out the person in the 'FEDS' and he wants me to help him with an ongoing investigation to catch an art thief. Within a few minutes he tells me what he wants me to do at first I'm not sure but a few minutes more and I agree? C'mon they could do better than that.

Thank you, classicmoment! ICAM!

I definitely agree that the show has many problems and that we shouldn't settle for mediocrity.

But when all other soaps are so damn bad, why can't we try to enjoy this in a way?

And why is daytime so depressing? Who the big baddie that continues letting Jean Passanante, Dena Higley, Charles Pratt Jr., Robert Guza Jr. and Bradley Bell continue ruining soaps? If it's a disgusting soap, who the heck lets those hacks come back to their jobs every day? Shouldn't a mistake be removed?

But back to Y&R.... I won't get into any discussions these days, I'm quite depressed and I'm sure it would spread over my Y&R watching...

And if she sucks in those areas, good God, what isn't she sucking in?!

Historigasms.

:lol:

This thread is SO much more entertaining than it was this morning.

"No! You're wrong! It sucks!"

"No! You're wrong! It's enjoyable!"

"No! It blows! MAB is hack!"

"No! She's not! I like it!"

"You're wrong!"

"No, you're wrong!"

:lol:

But back to Y&R.... I won't get into any discussions these days, I'm quite depressed and I'm sure it would spread over my Y&R watching...

What's wrong, dmarex? I hope you feel better soon.