On 12/22/2021 at 1:28 AM, Nicholas Blair said:

Catching up on some of these good posts:

Paul, MF's Jennifer was bitchy from the outset on SFT.

What beautiful pictures of Irene Dailey, and Anna Holbrook looks fabulous.

This was the adoption story Jacquie Courtney refused to play and was fired. (Of course there was much else going on that had led up to this crisis.) The story was played out with Susan Harney, and a piddly little story it turned out to be. After Steve's death, Alice wanted to adopt a child which just happened to be the granddaughter of Rachel's housekeeper, Beatrice (Jacqueline Brookes). Rachel was backing Beatrice, of course, and it looked like maybe there were be a custody trial, then everyone decided to be reasonable adults, and I think Jacqueline Brookes left not long afterward.

Actually, the adoption story was never mentioned as any part of the reason Courtney was fired. She (rightfully) opined that Alice becoming romantically involved with Willis was illogical given their history. Courtney did begin the adoption story, which was later continued with Harney. At one point, JC's Alice signed paperwork to get Sally, while remarking that she couldn't bear to lose the child too, after the other recent tragedy in her life. Courtney and Cathy Greene (Sally) worked together long enough  for JC to acknowledge in the press: "I really loved that child as my own!"

The whole story did seem to peter out and end abruptly. I always thought that one of the main problems was that Jacqueline Brookes came across as so weak, bland and wishy-washy as Beatrice, and that long-time viewers were not warming up to Harney's version of Alice.

 

3 hours ago, vetsoapfan said:

Courtney and Cathy Greene (Sally) worked together long enough  for JC to acknowledge in the press: "I really loved that child as my own!"

Awwww!!! 🥰❤

4 hours ago, vetsoapfan said:

Actually, the adoption story was never mentioned as any part of the reason Courtney was fired. She (rightfully) opined that Alice becoming romantically involved with Willis was illogical given their history. Courtney did begin the adoption story, which was later continued with Harney. 

You are absolutely correct about this.   It was the Alice/Willis romance plot that Courtney didn't like (and supposedly the final reason she was fired), but Courtney did not refuse the play the storyline, she just complained about it.  Oddly -- despite that plot supposedly being the reason she was fired, Lemay delayed the romance and it did not play out until nearly 3-years after Courtney left the show. 

And guess what -- Courtney was right!  The Alice/Willis romance (played by Harney and Russom) was awful and ended nearly as quickly as it began.   

Did Susan Harney's Alice have any good stories?

1 hour ago, amybrickwallace said:

Did Susan Harney's Alice have any good stories?

Yes, I thought the Sally adoption storyline was quite good, and kept Rachel in Alice's orbit for another year or so after Steve's death.  Lemay's writing was never heavy on storylines (plots) for anyone.  But he did a very good job of giving Alice lots of airtime during Harney's time at AW.  After Courtney left, Vicki Wyndham clearly became the young romantic lead (which had been Courtney for 7 or 8 years), but Lemay kept Alice extremely important to the show.  And in my opinion, Harney's Alice was simply moved to number two, when Wyndham moved up to number one.   One thing Lemay failed miserably at was giving Alice a new romance.  Her first love interest after Steve's death was the boring loser, Ray Gordon.  Next was another loser (if not boring), Willis Frame.  And finally, Dan Shearer, who was not a loser, but certainly a boring love interest for the late-1970s.  Lemay should have created a dynamic charismatic new character as Alice's new permanent love interest.   But NOT another millionaire businessman like Steve and Mac.  Perhaps a very successful doctor or lawyer, and perhaps played by a well known soap opera leading man stolen from another show.  The lack of a dynamic post-Steve romance for Alice was Lemay's huge failing for the characters, and probably led to her leaving the show after Harney's first replacement was unsuccessful.   

Edited December 23, 20213 yr by Neil Johnson

7 minutes ago, Neil Johnson said:

Yes, I thought the Sally adoption storyline was quite good, and kept Rachel in Alice's orbit for another year or so after Steve's death.  Lemay's writing was never heavy on storylines (plots) for anyone.  But he did a very good job of giving Alice lots of airtime during Harney's time at AW.  After Courtney left, Vicki Wyndham clearly became the young romantic lead (which had been Courtney for 7 or 8 years), but Lemay kept Alice extremely important to the show.  And in my opinion, Harney's Alice was simply moved to number two, when Wyndham moved up to number one.   One thing Lemay failed miserably at was giving Alice a new romance.  Her first love interest after Steve's death was the boring loser, Ray Gordon.  Next was another loser (if not boring), Willis Frame.  And finally, Dan Shearer, who was not a loser, but certainly a boring love interest for the late-1970s.  Lemay should have created a dynamic charismatic new character as Alice's new permanent love interest.   But NOT another millionaire businessman like Steve and Mac.  Perhaps a very successful doctor or lawyer, and perhaps played by a well known soap opera leading man stolen from another show.  The lack of a dynamic post-Steve romance for Alice was Lemay's huge failing for the characters, and probably led to her leaving the show after Harney's first replacement was unsuccessful.   

Lemay essentially said he felt Harney lacked the spark Courtney had, so I wonder if that's why he didn't really try for a romance.

14 minutes ago, DRW50 said:

Lemay essentially said he felt Harney lacked the spark Courtney had, so I wonder if that's why he didn't really try for a romance.

Well, Lemay also said he thought Harney was a far superior actress to Courtney (give me a break!! LOL), so there's that.  Plus, I think he did try romances with Harney -- three of them.  But he just kept putting her with dull men.    Lemay simply failed in that regard.

Edited December 23, 20213 yr by Neil Johnson

On 12/22/2021 at 4:32 PM, victoria foxton said:

 

Is Debra Messing playing a midwife? I don't recall anyone else ever having a midwife on a US soap, only ob-gyns or someone (usually the father) totally inexperienced delivering the baby lol

5 minutes ago, Dion said:

Is Debra Messing playing a midwife? I don't recall anyone else ever having a midwife on a US soap, only ob-gyns or someone (usually the father) totally inexperienced delivering the baby lol

Carolee Aldrich (Jada Rowland) on The Doctors was a nurse who eventually became a midwife.

1 hour ago, Dion said:

Is Debra Messing playing a midwife? I don't recall anyone else ever having a midwife on a US soap, only ob-gyns or someone (usually the father) totally inexperienced delivering the baby lol

Yeah. When Frankie was pregnant with Charlie, she wasn't sure what kind of birth she wanted to have so she met with some midwives.

The first actor Lemay paired with Susan Harney was Ted Shackelford, the original Ray Gordon. Considering how well Shackelford did on Knots Landing and how long he played a leading man on that show, I believe that Lemay simply did not know how to write for him. In general, Lemay did not know how to write the kind of long romantic story that is one of the staples of soap opera. His stories, like Mac and Rachel, were about immediate attraction and quick marriage, then problems afterward.

5 minutes ago, Nicholas Blair said:

His stories, like Mac and Rachel, were about immediate attraction and quick marriage, then problems afterward.

An astute observation.

Lemay's characters seemed to be attracted quickly and just as ready to break up and move on.

As one quote put it, you watched to see what is happening , rather than what will happen.

16 minutes ago, Nicholas Blair said:

Lemay did not know how to write the kind of long romantic story that is one of the staples of soap opera. His stories, like Mac and Rachel, were about immediate attraction and quick marriage, then problems afterward.

I respectfully disagree.  I've always believed the long tortured romance was one of the things Lemay did better than almost anybody.  He wrote arguably the best years of the Steve and Alice love story, created the Mac and Rachel romance which continued until Doug Watson's death, and don't forget about Robert and Lenore, who were nearly as popular as Steve/Alice until Susan Sullivan left the show.  I do agree Lemay tried a lot of love stories, and gave up on them -- Willis/Angie, Russ/Gwen, Russ/Elena, Alice's romances after Steve, etc.   But much of that tendency came from Lemay's over dependance upon "chemistry" between actors.  He'd watch a couple of episodes featuring a new couple, and if he didn't sense chemistry, he would immediately break-up the couple and move on.  But when he did see chemistry, he definitely knew how to write long romances that practically defined AW during his time at the show.   Just my opinion.   

Doug Watson came on as Mac in August 74. 

Mac and Rachel married in Feb 75, so the courtship was brief (in soap terms).

Robert and Lenore were married about a year March 74-June 75.  Not sure how much time they were a couple before that -most 73?

10 hours ago, Neil Johnson said:

You are absolutely correct about this.   It was the Alice/Willis romance plot that Courtney didn't like (and supposedly the final reason she was fired), but Courtney did not refuse the play the storyline, she just complained about it.  Oddly -- despite that plot supposedly being the reason she was fired, Lemay delayed the romance and it did not play out until nearly 3-years after Courtney left the show. 

And guess what -- Courtney was right!  The Alice/Willis romance (played by Harney and Russom) was awful and ended nearly as quickly as it began.   

Unfortunately, the writing was weak (Lemay's material started to deteriorate around 1975) and Susan Harney just did not have chemistry with anyone. It was a stark contrast to Courtney, who had had such magnetic chemistry with George Reinholt, and who exuded an indefinable "star appeal," which even Harding Lemay later acknowledged. It was similar to when Bennye Gatteys replaced Denise Alexander on Days of Our Lives. Harney and Gatteys were okay on their own, but paled in comparison to Courtney and Alexander, and the fans never really warmed up to the replacements as they had the original actresses.