How much blame does Agnes Nixon have?

[Sylph]

For the state in which her soaps are in today?

Could she have done things differently in the past and what did she do wrong?

Was she completely powerless?

[R Sinclair]

Your question's too broad for me...

[DaytimeFan]

I don't feel much blame can be placed on Nixon at this point. The only thing she could have done is not sold her shows to ABC...but then one wonders if ABC would have just not picked them up if she'd done that and then AMC and OLTL would have been long gone decades ago.

That was Nixon's mistake, she sold her shows and thus sold her control. That said, I do not believe she had much of a choice. Unlike Bill Bell, who had a partnership with Screen Gems (now Sony) with Y&R, Nixon did not have a production partner outside the network. Also unlike Bell, when Nixon launched her second soap, AMC, she did not have the financial resources Bill Bell did when he launched B&B.

Everything that has occurred to AMC and OLTL's detriment has been courtest of ABC, specifically Brian Frons who doesn't 'get' Agnes's shows. Say what you will about Michael Eisner but the man loves Agnes, loves her vision and loves her soaps. He promoted and protected them.

[Sylph]

Of course, in retrospect, the sale looks... Not smart. But as you point out, she probably had no choice and thought it was a good move back then. She also sold her company, which was weird, but hey... However, she might have put certain clauses in that contract that guaranteed some rights or perhaps she should have kept a small percentage of ownership. I don't know, I know it's easy to be clever now.

It sure is his fault, even though some of the previous daytime executives weren't all that much better either.

[Vee]

Not this again.

Every single Internet poster eventually comes up with this. "I just had an epiphany no one's ever had before! Agnes Nixon abandoned [OLTL or AMC, take your pick]! [!@#$%^&*] Agnes Nixon you guys!" This is so old. I've seen this like eight times in four years on this board.

The fact is Agnes did what she did and we're not really in a position to judge if you ask me. She always intended to use the early success of OLTL to sell AMC, her baby, to ABC. She left OLTL in the hands of a solid EP and writers throughout the '70s. AMC was always her darling. While I prefer OLTL, I understand how she felt. That's as far as I can take it without acting like a petulant know-it-all teenager.

[NYC123]

Agnes Nixon is really to blame for the state of OLTL and AMC. When Agnes was with AMC from 1970-1997 AMC was AMAZING. When she left in 1998 things got out of hand. But when she came back in 2000 AMC recovered a bit from the mess call Megan McTavish.

Brian Fron's is to blame for the state of AMC and OLTL. He does not get any of these shows. He does not Agnes's visions for both shows. If he hired good writiers and good EP's who understood the shows manybe things could have been different.

Agnes is powerless right now but when Agnes had an involvment with either OLTL or AMC those shows were KICK ASS!

[marlenadlc]

What kind of question is this? Not only does Nixon not have any "blame" for anything in daytime, you should all be grateful for her 45 years of hard work in and devotion to daytime!

If any of your soap 'historians' want to meet the real Nixon, and hear her talk about all she brought to daytime over her very long career, here is a mult-hour interview I did with her for the TV Academy in 1997:

YouTube - Archive of American Television Interview with Agne...

Oral history interview with soap creator and writer Agnes Nixon.This is part of a multi-segment oral history interview. Search for "Archive of American ...

www.youtube.com/watch?v=FetawN1y3fc&feature=rela... - 90k - Similar pages

Incredulously,

Connie (a.k.a. Marlena De Lacroix)

[Tishy]

So she is not allowed to retire? If you look at the tenure of a television show, 35 plus years for one is beyond an amazing accomplishment. Most television shows don't last a year.

You know who is to blame? Oliver North, OJ Simpson, the people who created cable, and the Menedez Brothers. When we the public would watch soaps, court cases and cable caught the public's eyes. So Agnes Nixon holds no blame IMO

[SteveFrame]

I think some of the comments are taking Sylph's question a little too harsh. It is a question that I don't see anything wrong to ask.

It is the same as my love for Harding Lemay. I love what he gave to daytime and I love what he gave to AW but I have to step back and ignore my love for him for a few minutes and ask is he or was he to blame for what happened to AW later?

And I have to say yes. He made mistakes that cost Another World in later years. Does that diminish the good that he did for AW? Some would say no and some would say yes.

It is the same as Mary Stuart's problems with Frank & Doris Hursley at SFT. The Hursley's were good for SFT. They created wonderful stories and their time at SFT was one of the best in the history of the shows 35 years, but even Mary Stuart who had problems then and problems later admitted that some of the things they did hurt the show in the long run.

I love Agnes Nixon. Do I think she is fully to blame for what is wrong with AMC now? No. I do see mistakes she made that ended up hurting AMC in the long run and the same with OLTL. Do I blame her? No. Do I think she should have done some things differently? Yes.

Do I think she deserves all the praise she gets? Hell yes.

But with all that love I have for her, I still see mistakes she made and there is nothing wrong with that.

I am a firm believer in having faves and honoring them, but at the same time if we do not learn from history we are destined to repeat those same mistakes.

Asking a question like Sylph is asking is not disrespecting Agnes Nixon. It is an innocent question. Don't let your love of Agnes Nixon ourweigh the benefits that can be learned from looking at her objectively.

We all need to do that. That is one of the things that is hurting soaps today is that fans refuse to look at anything objectively. We get so caught up in our love for our faves that we can't see when they hurting the show or when something that is being done by them or for them that is hurting the show overall. I have given up even discussing the current soaps anymore because of it. It gets so old to try to discuss the show objectively looking at the good and bad of all parts and to be attacked because you said something bad about someone's favorite couple or character.

Back to Agnes as I said I love her. I respect her. And I always give her the admiration she so deserves. But again she was not perfect. She did make a few mistakes along the way.

I think the biggest thing I will always wonder about her is why since she sold her shows to ABC and seems to have no real power with them anymore did she feel that she had to play ball with them on the UNABORTION thing. I so would love for her to tell us how she really felt about that instead of the hogwash statement that she gave. I honestly don't believe she went along with it, but I guess we will never know.

I wish in many ways she had been like her mentor Irna Phillips in that sense. Irna would have never played ball with the networks. She would have let her opinion be known and let the chips fall where they may.

[EricMontreal22]

She sold her shows after 5 years each--in the first two cases (OLTl in '73 and AMC in '75). In All her Children she talks a lot about haow hard this decision was. Basically though, ABC stopped upping the shows' budgets unless she agreed to sell and her actors weregetting disappointed at no raises after years of service, etc. When she sold OLTL she worked hard to rpovide it with a solid foundation (they talk a bit about her 6 months "tutoring" of Gordon Russell to take over from her) and with AMC she did it with the understanding she'd remain essentially in charge. She never did sell the torubeld Loving/The City (I can't help thinking this was a reason City was replaced with PC so early on), and I always wondered about that--i suspect one reason was she felt it never was in a secure enough place for her to let it kinda lose. I'd love to know more of her thoughts on Lovin/The City (it's funny when Connie asks her about The City in that youtube interview she seems kinda thrown--I wonder just how much her created by and consultant co credits were) it's the only example I can think of of her being involved in a soap and it not beign a huge success (and I include her help with GL, co creating ATWT, turning AW around, etc here) I wonder if her instincts were wrong for once--she wanted to create a more old fashioned, early 70s style 30 min soap despite what netowrks wanted at the time, she even said in one interview it was partly as AMC got bigger, to have a show to tell the older AMC style stories on.

Vee--while I don't think it was Sylph's intention to bring up the "Agnes abandoned OLTL to the wolves! We hate Agnes" threads that pop up here every so often--I think he wanted an intelligent discussionof the subject, somethign that interests me too, you're dead right. I've NEVER understood that mentality--and I sawy that as a life long fan of OLTL (even if AMC is my preference). As I said in the Irna Phillips thread, when Irna left a soap she DID throw it to the wolves--he rparting gift to her beloved GL was brutally killing off its mos tpopular character so that her darling ATWT could finally overtake it in the ratings. You never saw anything like that with Agnes--no such disrespect to her fans.

Connie, we were discussing that amazing interview in another thread--I wonder if Sylph's sat through it yet cuz it answers a lot of his questions.

The woman has been in the industry so long--I understand why she's not still head writing her soap--and I'm not surehow many of her decisions Frons woudl let her do anyway. Even int he state AMC has been in I admit I still get a bit happy when I hear an actor mention Agnes was at the studio or liked a story point--I like that she still ahs some involvement even if it's very mucha peripheral capacity (I have no doubt that one reason some of the really old vets haven't been put off contract liek they have at the other ABC shows is because Agnes is still there). We'll prob never know how much control she's had over the years and what years--but when she di return in 99-2000 she always made it clear it was prob the last time she would hands on full time and it would be short term. The woman has a large family she cares for deeply, she's *old*, her beloved husband passed away--she doesnt' want to spend 5-10 hours a day working on a tv show no matter how much she loves it--and in the current climate probably fighting to even get her vision on.

Agnes started headwriting a soap in 1958--for more than 10 of those years headwriting TWO soaps.

[EricMontreal22]

"I wish in many ways she had been like her mentor Irna Phillips in that sense. Irna would have never played ball with the networks. She would have let her opinion be known and let the chips fall where they may. "

Right, but that's just not who she is. From reading All Her Children (really, I promise I'll stop name dropping that book every 5 mins) and from the wonderful youtube interview, it's obvious that she's just not like that--for better and worse. When she's asked about someone she obviously didn't get alogn with she very politely puts it aside--but this has prob worked out better for her in the logn run. She's beloved in the industry, and she managed to get many great actors who said they'd never work in daytime again (Rosemary Prinz, Ruth Warrick, etc) simplybecause they found her such a joy and inspiration to work with.

But, however, I say "word" to all your post Steve.

[SteveFrame]

Oh I agree with that Eric. She is wonderful and beloved. But there comes a time when no matter how nice you are if you love something you have got to put that aside for the best of the show and the genre or whatever.

Erika Slezak is one of the most beloved actresses too but even she knew that. I don't think if she had not stood up like she did that Dena Higley would have been fired as quick as she was. But Erika could not stand to see what was happening.

I don't think anyone should ever dish dirt just for the sake of dishing dirt - even though I admit I am a lover of reading it when someone does. I don't blame Agnes at all for not spilling the beans on what happened with Roy Winsor or whatever. In fact I respect her for it.

But the other was an instance where it seemed ABC was trying to veto the negative publicity they were getting about the unabortion and pulled out Agnes to say she approved of the story. I would have loved and respected her more if she had not played network ball that time. It doesn't diminish what respect I had for her but it didn't make it grow any though.

Oh and I have no problem with you bringing up that book all the time. I love when you give us insights from it. In fact I was thinking of buying it today but the budget wouldn't let me.

******************************

As to Irna and Guiding Light, I don't think Irna intentionally killed off Kathy Roberts to hurt the show. I think that was planned all along and she was essentially still involved with GL at the time. I have read numerous times that she was even involved with finding with Agnes' replacement when she finally left to do Another World.

Irna constantly used life and death in her soaps - just like when she killed off Jeff Baker on ATWT. Death back then was a nomral thing on soaps. Even popular characters died and stayed dead.

Paul Raven was killed off Love of Life in 1955. He was the leading male character on that show.

Kathy was killed of GL and she was one of the leads of GL.

The Edge of Night killed off the very popular Sara Karr played by Teal Ames.

It was just common and although fans were saddened and heart broken and even phoned the sets about it - the characters stayed dead.

I agree that often Irna did abandon shows, but I don't think one could say she officially abandon GL until she was actually fired from it in the mid to late 60's. Her ideas were not right for the show at the time, and I do not blame Luci Ferri for having her fired. But I know that after Agnes took over and even until the time she came back that she often called the studio. At one point Lucy Ferri even quit taking her calls because she was constantly calling to say what she did or didn't like about what was going on.

After she was fired from the show I think it was in 1967 I think she did fully abandon.

Back to Kathy, I know rumors were that she did it to help the ratings go down so that ATWT's would go up. Those might be true and they might not. Irna did a lot of things I did not like and I think hurt her shows. But I am just not sure that was one of them. From studying her radio soaps and GL in particular she would constantly thoughout the history of it do away with popular characters either by killing them off or completely changing the focus of the show. I mean three times she changed the main family during it's radio years as well as the location. It was just typical of her.

I think she was just of the firm belief that like she said in life things did change and life and death both occurred, but I also belief that she felt that fans could not control what happened on her shows anymore than the network executives did. I think all Head Writers and Producers need some of that. I think that Irna carried it a little too far.

[EricMontreal22]

Steve you haven't read All her Children yet? I assumed you had! It's a must read particularly for you. Here's a copy for $1.30 (plus S&H of course) http://www.amazon.com/gp/offer-listing/038...2921&sr=1-1

You're right about Irna--but I do think on one level she did kill Kathy off as a bit of a "follow this if you can" thing. When she returned to GL it seems too much of a coincidence that she killed Kathy's equally popular daughter... Her priority at the time was ATWT (when she killed Kathy) and in general she seemed to have less qualms about leaving her shows than Agnes. I meant more to say that to those who feel Agnes abandoned OLTL -- just as an aexample that she did more for the wellfare of the show than many other sin the past had for the shows they left, is all.

[Paul Raven]

A lot of those deaths mentioned (Jeff Baker,Sara Karr)were because the actors wanted to leave and they were so popular and identified with the role that a recast may not have worked.

Also,remember that the shows were new then and those deaths gave new story to Penny and Mike to find new loves,which of course they did.

It was a different time then.

Although those characters were immensely popular,the shows were more of an ensemble and the notion of 'back from the dead'to bring back a popular actor was not entertained.

Was it Days that started it with Deidre Hall and Wayne Northrup?

[SteveFrame]

It was typical fashion in that day and time for many of them to abandon their shows though. Roy Winsor created both Love of Life and Search For Tomorrow and didn't stay hardly involved in them at all. It was not until he created The Secret Storm that he stayed with it. And remember that Irna came out of radio where she was constantly creating shows. There was no way that she could have stayed involved with every single one of them.

I am surprised that even the Hummerts could stay involved with as many as they did but it wasn't as if they wrote all the shows - they were producers who had very talented writers and directors working at the shows.

So it was typical for Irna to move from one show to the other as she had done that in radio so often. And in truth she had written GL for many years since she began on radio and continued onto TV. All in all she spent more years at GL than she did at ATWT or any of her shows.

She started writing it on January 25, 1937 and left sometime after March 1958 when Kathy was killed. That is 21 years as head writer of the same show. And it was only after the show moved to TV that she kept a regular assistant writer. She wrote every 15 minute script for the show for 21 years.

*********************************

As to the replacing of actresses and actors then, it was a typical thing even in that day and time for popular actors to be replaced though. The space soap opera Captain Video had replaced the very popular Richard Coogan in 1950. Peggy McCay was very popular as Vanessa on Love of Life and she was succesfully replaced in 1955 and her equally popular replacement Bonnie Bartlett was replaced by Audrey Peters in 1959.

I know that some will say that Teal Ames and Mark Rydell were differnt cases but even the super popular John Larkin was successfully replaced as Mike Karr.

Yes it was a different time. Fans accepted more. Yes they were saddened and stormed the sets with letters, but they accepted it and went on. It did provide more story for Penny and Mike Karr.

The point I was hopefully trying to make is that life and death occurred then. The writers realized that and let it happen. And they didn't let fans dictate things either.

I honestly think if Mark Rydell or Teal Ames had been replaced fans would have accepted it. Esp. with the examples I stated above. I read a few years ago an article that speculated that one of the big reasons Mark Rydell was not replaced was his departure came too close to several other key recasts - in particular the popular Wendy Drew had left as Ellen and was replaced in 1960. They had gotten a new Bob in 1960. Also the popular Anne Burr had left the role of Claire in 1959 and was replaced unsuccessfully that year. So they felt it was too close to recast another big role at the time.

I think just about the only early firing that was undone was when Irna Phillips fired Helen Wagner in 1956. I think she got flack from the actors and from fans. So she brought her back.

As far as returns from the dead. Soap operas went a long time without them. The first return from the dead of a popular character was when Love of Life brought back Paul Raven in the late 60's. Richard Coogan had either retired by that time or died - can't remember which - so they used another actor.

I am not sure of the next one. I had them wrote down at one time. But the real trend started with Days in the late 80's.