I don't understand all the ratings talk. MarkH has shown that ratings have been relatively stable. More than most soaps. If you're looking for them to JUMP, they won't... none are. All these (stable) ratings mean is that for every viewer that is tuning OUT of OLTL for not enjoying it, there are just as many fans either staying tuned in or BECOMING fans to balance out whoever is not watching anymore. So in my book, Carlivati is doing fine for ratings.

Removing the ratings from the KAnder/Toups discussion, it really is one person enjoying it, and one person not. So oh well.

I love this post from rhinohide:

Viewers, or at least those who post on this board are divided. Some are enjoying the show and some are not. I will continue to post that I am not enjoying it, but I try not to be overbearing about it, because once I've enumerated my sources of dissatisfaction it doesn't become more persuasive through repetition. Furthermore, if others do wind up eventually agreeing with me, it won't make me enjoy the show more. Misery doesn't really love company. I'd much rather be on Team I THINK CARLIVATI IS KING and be entertained. I am supremely envious of those who are delighted by the show. Thanks to those of you who tolerate my infrequent, yet persistent complaints. It is not my desire to convince you that you're wrong, and the show really is awful. In fact, although we don't agree, as long as we keep discussing it, maybe one day I'll see what you see and enjoy the show again. That's all I care about. I want to enjoy the show. Until then, I like hanging out with you guys. The happy ones.

That, I think, should be the spirit of the message board. Not this one, all message boards.

As for Todd/Marty, I love what DrewH outlined:

With Todd and Marty, the storyline has changed, been twisted a couple times since this storyline started. In the beginning, in May, you have Todd finding Marty and taking her back to his house in secret. Then, you saw him think of this plan to hurt John and Cole because in Todd's mind, they're the reason his family has been taken from him, not anything he did to them. After the initial "kidnapping," then you have Marty, slowly coming to terms with the fact that things are now different. Instead of Lee taking care of her, it will be yet another stranger to her, this Todd person. You start to see her giving trust to Todd. Then, there's also the danger of John getting closer and closer to finding out exactly who Todd is hiding. You also have Tess thrown into the mix. And now, in recent weeks, we've been seeing Todd fighting with his own feelings for Marty after spending almost five months alone with this woman. Todd is not the most sane man. His actions over the years have proven that. So it's not too out there to believe that Todd, in his mind, would think it would be okay to do what he's doing right now. After spending months and months with this woman, he is going to start developing feelings for her. However, the feelings he's having for Marty are completely taboo due to their past and the rape. And you see that. If we had Todd going straight into being intimate with Marty, having sex with her with no remorse, then yes, I would say that this is wrong. But you can see Todd resisting. You can see him realize that he's going too far when he allows himself to get too close to Marty. And I'm sure the next phase is going to be Marty realizing this and starting to wonder why Todd won't open up to her.

The slow build makes this story work for me, and the only reason it's WORKING for me, and many others from what I read, is that we have faith that it will come to a conclusion, a payoff, that somewhere involves Todd losing everything. From the people I see hating it, ZendallFan, etc, they say that DON'T have faith it will end that way. So it's really all about faith. Faith the writer won't fail you in the end. If you don't have faith, I consider that not Carlivati's fault, but the genre's fault, for failing you too many times, under the pens of too many writers. For me, Carlivati's work has satisfied me MORE than failed me, so that's why I don't crucify him.

The soap genre allows for nuances, smaller details, subtleties, that will strengthen the ultimate payoff. I remember the awkwardness of Todd waking up next to Marty the night of the storm when she didn't want to be in the room alone. I remember the several times that Cole was in the house and had no idea that his mother was alive and upstairs. All of those details will heighten the drama WHEN Marty gets her memory back and realizes the monstrosity of Todd's actions. Carlivati isn't blind to these things when he HAS Soap Opera Digest doing interviews and articles with him asking "how far will they go?" and telling him about the OLTL fans who don't like the direction of the story. His responses only explain WHY they are doing the story, not telling us that Todd/Marty are being groomed as supercouple of the future. He's not saying the end result because he wants people tuning in for the climax, he wants people unsure. But I have faith that the climax will satisfy me in SOME kind of way. And I can say that I have never felt more connected and INVESTED in OLTL storylines since the early/mid 90s.

It seems a lot of the other dissatisfied OLTL fans keep talking about how Carlivati was praised too soon as the second coming, etc, but THAT shouldn't be informing your determination to make us realize we're wrong for enjoying the stories we are right now. I am enjoying right now, overall, but I certainly wasn't one comparing Carlivati to Douglas Marland, or whoever else, because I focus on what this ONE person is doing at this ONE soap, RIGHT NOW. Every writer is different, has different consistency of talent, for different lengths of times, in combination with different soap canvases and behind-the-scenes regimes, so comparing this one to that one is like apples and oranges to me.

I also said I'm not glued to the show like I was for BE takeover and Nash's death. But it has to do with many reasons... where the focus is (more on Rex/Gigi than the Buchanans, Viki/Charlie, Dorian like it was during the BE Takeover story), current story direction (Brody losing it, when there could have been so much more), Fall Promos (editing a caption about "complicated love" in with a shot of Todd and Marty)...

I think the last 10 years of OLTL have encouraged people to believe that tptb cater to particular interest. They've catered to couples, story lines, and characters that were said to be popular and in the fans minds- they have always appeared interested in giving the fans what they want, and have used fan response to pen many stories, and usher out actors. IN many ways Frons has "trained" viewers into believing that if they (majority) write letters and campaign for couples in polls, they will receive a "treat". In deterring from that climate I think the show has left many unsettled and this is the result. Tptb lack of commitment to characters , story lines, and romance in the past pissed many of us off- and now that I see the so called majority not trumping tptb, it's rather confusing. I feel, as of late, I'm in for another Bron Frons' training in "are you not entertained"(picturing Russell Crowe in Gladiator).

I don't understand all the ratings talk. MarkH has shown that ratings have been relatively stable. More than most soaps. If you're looking for them to JUMP, they won't... none are. All these (stable) ratings mean is that for every viewer that is tuning OUT of OLTL for not enjoying it, there are just as many fans either staying tuned in or BECOMING fans to balance out whoever is not watching anymore. So in my book, Carlivati is doing fine for ratings.

Mercy! Someone gets it!

Removing the ratings from the KAnder/Toups discussion, it really is one person enjoying it, and one person not. So oh well.

I love this post from rhinohide:

That, I think, should be the spirit of the message board. Not this one, all message boards.

As for Todd/Marty, I love what DrewH outlined:

The slow build makes this story work for me, and the only reason it's WORKING for me, and many others from what I read, is that we have faith that it will come to a conclusion, a payoff, that somewhere involves Todd losing everything. From the people I see hating it, ZendallFan, etc, they say that DON'T have faith it will end that way. So it's really all about faith. Faith the writer won't fail you in the end. If you don't have faith, I consider that not Carlivati's fault, but the genre's fault, for failing you too many times, under the pens of too many writers. For me, Carlivati's work has satisfied me MORE than failed me, so that's why I don't crucify him.

The soap genre allows for nuances, smaller details, subtleties, that will strengthen the ultimate payoff. I remember the awkwardness of Todd waking up next to Marty the night of the storm when she didn't want to be in the room alone. I remember the several times that Cole was in the house and had no idea that his mother was alive and upstairs. All of those details will heighten the drama WHEN Marty gets her memory back and realizes the monstrosity of Todd's actions. Carlivati isn't blind to these things when he HAS Soap Opera Digest doing interviews and articles with him asking "how far will they go?" and telling him about the OLTL fans who don't like the direction of the story. His responses only explain WHY they are doing the story, not telling us that Todd/Marty are being groomed as supercouple of the future. He's not saying the end result because he wants people tuning in for the climax, he wants people unsure. But I have faith that the climax will satisfy me in SOME kind of way. And I can say that I have never felt more connected and INVESTED in OLTL storylines since the early/mid 90s.

It seems a lot of the other dissatisfied OLTL fans keep talking about how Carlivati was praised too soon as the second coming, etc, but THAT shouldn't be informing your determination to make us realize we're wrong for enjoying the stories we are right now. I am enjoying right now, overall, but I certainly wasn't one comparing Carlivati to Douglas Marland, or whoever else, because I focus on what this ONE person is doing at this ONE soap, RIGHT NOW. Every writer is different, has different consistency of talent, for different lengths of times, in combination with different soap canvases and behind-the-scenes regimes, so comparing this one to that one is like apples and oranges to me.

I also said I'm not glued to the show like I was for BE takeover and Nash's death. But it has to do with many reasons... where the focus is (more on Rex/Gigi than the Buchanans, Viki/Charlie, Dorian like it was during the BE Takeover story), current story direction (Brody losing it, when there could have been so much more), Fall Promos (editing a caption about "complicated love" in with a shot of Todd and Marty)...

Can I say that I love this post. so perfect!!! Pure perfection . A measured response, positive and negatives, taking into account multiple perspectives, AND analyzing where the distrust comes from. I'm gonna frame this one .

I feel like there's no point in getting rid of him now. He's done his damage. This Todd/Marty thing has actually "broken" the show for me in a way that I can't ever see myself returning. Ron pissed all over the 20 years I watched the show. I used to say I could go back to watching if certain things happened but, there's no point. JMHO.

Edited September 25, 200817 yr by marceline

Yeah Carlivati is doing fine if you're comparing OLTL to other show's, fact is he hasn't done diddly squat for ratings

But people who've devoted much of their time to a show deserve to display their displeasure, regardless if many happen to enjoy the show. I see nothing wrong with some fans demanding a better product, it might not be my opinion or the opinion of many, but as this thread clearly points out, differences in opinion is always going to be the norm.

Regardless of the ratings argument, I still think its safe to say Carlivati's job isn't as safe as you may believe. AMC and OLTL aren't GH, Carlivati doesn't have the job security that Guza has.

Great post!

I think that was a classic case of the Carlivati hype, and how some soap fans are willing to cling to a little glimmer of hope way too soon.

*cough*Latham*cough*

This is the most ridiculous topic I have ever...

What exactly is the point, again? To rally for Ron Carlivati's firing... because, why? He had an off summer? Or to just basically knight RC as the last "hack" in the line of hacks who will eventually be accused of being ghost written as well?

Yeah Carlivati is doing fine if you're comparing OLTL to other show's, fact is he hasn't done diddly squat for ratings

Did you not read any of MarkH's or DavidEvanSmiths posts?

This is the most ridiculous topic I have ever...

Amen.

This is the most ridiculous topic I have ever...

What exactly is the point, again? To rally for Ron Carlivati's firing... because, why? He had an off summer? Or to just basically knight RC as the last "hack" in the line of hacks who will eventually be accused of being ghost written as well?

And this is one of the most closed minded posts I've ever seen. If you like his work, bravo for you but people who don't have every right to express that. Suck it up.

I have not because I still see alot of good potential things in the show. Did Ron veer off course after June with Mendorra and 1968 storyline, absolutely. All good writers have had bad plots. I see this Todd/Marty story going to have major effects, this is not Marty but once she founds out all hell breaks loose. I think this will tie in with other stories on the canvas to make it a big umbrella storyline. Ron has played smart with this by slowly building it. I think Tea's return will coincide with all this. The Tess storyline has been campy but I have enjoyed so far. There are some good stuff and potential on the show. Also everyone keeps pointing to Michael Malone as OLTL's hero. Actually a big big reason Malone's first tenure was so good was because of Josh Griffith. Griffith was great for OLTL. I would love to see him return as a co-head writer with RC or promote Carolyn Culliton. Culliton was so good as Sheffer's co-head writer. In fact Sheffer has stated he did not have a clue how to write a soap opera when he started on ATWT and Culliton was his mentor. She taught him everything about soap opera writing.

Wait, Tea's returning!? Seriously?

If so, color me impressed.

Gordon Rayfield is alive. Eric, you're thinking of Gordon Russell. Rayfield headwrote with Anna Theresa Cascio at All My Children before Megan McTavish's most recent stint. The pairing wasn't well liked, but I liked them. THey were the only writers who could get me to watch AMC on a regular basis.

Oh my god... How embarassing. No keep my second least fave AMC writer ever away from all soaps (it was improved when Cascio came back). Maybe you liked it because you don't like AMC regularly--because it was the lest Pine Valley AMC has ever been IMHO

David well said--I admit i've been hard on OLTL the past while--but that's why I come to a site like this--to complain about what i don't like, praise what I do, to read other opiniosn and to *discuss*. I do agree with you actually that--all things considered, this is the most connected to OLTL I've felt since 1995 probably--something I didn't realize (there have been brief periods I've prefered--the first month the Labines returned, the Storm of Change under Griffith, etc but nothing lasting more than a few months). I never quite get how these threads become so personal--it's easy to argue these things, or should be, without making them about "well your opinion sucks", yet that's something I know I can be guilty of too.

Anyway I think there are a few obvious things--even the people clamoring for his firing don't seem to have AY ideas about who they'd want to replace him...

And this is one of the most closed minded posts I've ever seen. If you like his work, bravo for you but people who don't have every right to express that. Suck it up.

Excuse you, but it is NOT closed minded. First of all, I didn't enjoy his drawn out 1968 storyline, but the heart was there and the best of intentions was there. What's closed minded is "Oooh, I don't like this storyline so, guess what -- HE'S A HACK!" This man has attempted to bring a freshness to a show that has been stale for the last decade. Okay, so he failed. Not every single storyline comes out the way it was pitched -- or at least the way it was pictured when it was pitched. The whole Marty/Todd storyline is disturbing, true, but it's at least a way to mine story from two characters who are steeped in history.

And, for the last damned time, I am sick and tired... SICK AND TIRED... of these people getting pissy all because their opinions are disagreed with. YOU suck it up. Look into who you are as a so-called fan of the show and the genre in general and find out why you are so quick to piss and moan about why this person is supposed to be called a HACK (at the words of one of the most biased soap viewers on this board who wouldn't know what the word "impartial" means if it bit them in the face, ass and any other part of the anatomy) all because his attempt at doing something different didn't pan out. OLTL has been in a rather questionable state for the last several years. When a writer is trying to make his or her show stand out and be relevant, there are going to be hits and misses.

I am not saying Ron Carlivati's storytelling is anywhere near historic. I don't think he's the savior of soaps. But I do think, however, that it is absolutely ridiculous to consider someone who was brought on staff and has been a writer through several regimes over the last 11 years a "hack." He has an understanding of these characters. He has been through a decade of story with these characters. He was tutored, if you will, under Claire Labine. Is she a hack because she taught a hack? Come the hell on. Quit bitching and complaining about someone being a hack the minute there's a lag in story.

You want to talk about sucking things up? Suck up 1968 and Mendorra. It's over and done with. As for the Marty/Todd storyline -- IT HASN'T BEEN RESOLVED YET! How the HELL can anybody determine exactly how horrible this story is until it's over and done with? We have not yet seen the payoff. We have not yet seen how ANY of the characters involved will react.

I waded through eight pages of this thread and saw nothing that swayed me to think that this show needs to be given up on and Ron Carlivati needs to be called a hack. I stand in my opinion that this is just a thread developed because RC's story has pissed someone off, and now we have to be subjected to "hack, hack, hack, fire the hack" crap -- yet again.

Excuse you, but it is NOT closed minded. First of all, I didn't enjoy his drawn out 1968 storyline, but the heart was there and the best of intentions was there. What's closed minded is "Oooh, I don't like this storyline so, guess what -- HE'S A HACK!" This man has attempted to bring a freshness to a show that has been stale for the last decade. Okay, so he failed. Not every single storyline comes out the way it was pitched -- or at least the way it was pictured when it was pitched. The whole Marty/Todd storyline is disturbing, true, but it's at least a way to mine story from two characters who are steeped in history.

And, for the last damned time, I am sick and tired... SICK AND TIRED... of these people getting pissy all because their opinions are disagreed with. YOU suck it up. Look into who you are as a so-called fan of the show and the genre in general and find out why you are so quick to piss and moan about why this person is supposed to be called a HACK (at the words of one of the most biased soap viewers on this board who wouldn't know what the word "impartial" means if it bit them in the face, ass and any other part of the anatomy) all because his attempt at doing something different didn't pan out. OLTL has been in a rather questionable state for the last several years. When a writer is trying to make his or her show stand out and be relevant, there are going to be hits and misses.

I am not saying Ron Carlivati's storytelling is anywhere near historic. I don't think he's the savior of soaps. But I do think, however, that it is absolutely ridiculous to consider someone who was brought on staff and has been a writer through several regimes over the last 11 years a "hack." He has an understanding of these characters. He has been through a decade of story with these characters. He was tutored, if you will, under Claire Labine. Is she a hack because she taught a hack? Come the hell on. Quit bitching and complaining about someone being a hack the minute there's a lag in story.

You want to talk about sucking things up? Suck up 1968 and Mendorra. It's over and done with. As for the Marty/Todd storyline -- IT HASN'T BEEN RESOLVED YET! How the HELL can anybody determine exactly how horrible this story is until it's over and done with? We have not yet seen the payoff. We have not yet seen how ANY of the characters involved will react.

I waded through eight pages of this thread and saw nothing that swayed me to think that this show needs to be given up on and Ron Carlivati needs to be called a hack. I stand in my opinion that this is just a thread developed because RC's story has pissed someone off, and now we have to be subjected to "hack, hack, hack, fire the hack" crap -- yet again.

I don't post here very much anymore, but I say you have very bluntly put into words what I was thinking!

Yes, disgruntled viewers have the right to express what's bugging them, but to call for the firing of a writer this quickly? Over a story that hasn't been resolved because the writer DARES to take a chance? I enjoy OLTL, even if some of this stuff squinks me out, because it's DIFFERENT than what Days has been offering. I will admit, I haven't gotten into the other soaps, but dang.

I will admit that I'm soured on "Fire him! Fire him!" because, shoot, I hear that on Days boards every time someone gets pissed off. Man, if everyone got fired for having down slumps, the job market would be in a heck of a lot worse shape than it is now.

More to the point: what's the morale backstage? How do the actors feel? Is ES going to take a stand against RC like she did DH? Maybe THEN would be the time to consider firing him, but ya know...I haven't seen her do that just yet.....

The actors all seem to really like him. Or did last I heard anything.