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Message added by Errol,

loving_02_800x500.jpg

LOVING

  • June 26, 1983 - November 10, 1995 on ABC

THE CITY

  • November 13, 1995 - March 28, 1997 on ABC

Loving/The City Discussion Thread

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  • Member
27 minutes ago, Kane said:

Her IMDB listed age is almost certainly incorrect, as it would mean that she was only 17 when she started on the show in 1984. That said, she was playing a character much older than herself, as Gwyneth would have been born in about 1944, given Rick's stated year of birth. I would guess that she was born sometime in the 1950s and is probably about the same age as Callan White (who was also playing a character about decade older than she was).

Thanks. I know this was random, but it's been bothering me, and I really do appreciate all the Loving historians. It's my favorite little soap that could.

Christine's age being wrong on IMDb/Google was my assumption, but you never know. Some people do genuinely look older/younger. But she should be in her 70s if the younger set are now in their 50s (Which is wild!).

Because I was on my Loving binge, it got me interested in NCIS. Michael Weatherly was born to play Special Agent Anthony DiNozzo, but he is very self-deprecating when it comes to his time on soaps. In more than one clip, he talks about how bad he was at playing Cooper Alden --- going home in a huff and being sick to his stomach because he was sure his performance stunk; that Celeste Holm was one of his co-stars who pulled him aside and told him he needed to watch the show and invest in the character. I didn't think he was young Robert DeNiro, but there's a charm and skill there. Most of the younger actors were green at the start, but now they're pros. Amelia and Laura have Emmys. I wish Paul Anthony Stewart could've gotten the same recognition.

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  • Member

This must be some early Burke Moses as Curtis. I'd only seen near the end of his run.

LOVING SOAP OPERA Random Episodes Part #100!

He has that same aggressive mode he had as Sean Baxter on ATWT, but I suppose it fits Curtis more than that character.

Edited by DRW50

  • Member

Random--but last week the Wiki for Loving still had dates beside when was EP and who was HW when--and now they're gone... So which of you removed them? :P

  • Member

The newest fragments have the setup for Zack and Lorna's exit, and more importantly, the start of "Clay's" return. I didn't know they were around the same time. Just posting this as it's the only clip with the Clay mention. A shame Lorna (or the Lorna who had a personality, anyway) never got to interact with him. She would have given him some hell.

LOVING SOAP OPERA Random Episodes Part #103! - YouTube

Edited by DRW50

  • Member

Another episode setting up Clay's return. We get to see the Corinth public library and the front of the paper. @dc11786 @Kane did we get to see those very often?

LOVING SOAP OPERA Random Episodes Part #108! - YouTube

They also got some use out of Christine Tudor headshots.

I'm also confused as to why "Clay" was doing all this if he was just an impostor. Did they change the story later in the year? Or is he just trying to destabilize Gwyn for his schemes? It seemed like Alex's "Clay" always hated Gwyn more than the real Clay ever did.

There's also another glimpse of Rebecca Staab as Cecilia here:

LOVING SOAP OPERA Random Episodes Part #110! Wrong Thumbnail, mostly Superman but shows Cecelia - YouTube

Gwyn.png

GwynPaper.png

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They should have used that last shot in the Murders storyline.

Fittingly, this upload takes place not long after Clay disappeared. (and even more Rebecca Staab Cecilia, wearing her aerobics outfit to work)

LOVING SOAP OPERA Random Episodes Part #109! - YouTube

Edited by DRW50

  • Member

@DRW50 I feel like Clay being an imposter was always the plan. Otherwise why send someone ahead to "warn" the family that Clay had to have extensive plastic surgery and they wouldn't recognize him? I also feel like Rick exists because of the imposter story, since he's the means by which Ava discovers the truth (and this is really the only function that Rick serves that Curtis couldn't have).

Alex hating Gwyneth more than Clay ever did makes a bit of sense if you consider that he came to Corinth having only gotten Clay's version of their story, which doubtless sanitized Clay's own misdeeds (and, of course, Gwyneth didn't exactly cover herself in glory with all she'd been up to since leaving the real Clay in France)

The show continued to get mileage out of the conflict between Clay and Alex practically until the end, but I've always found it a bit curious that they never seemed to revisit the tension between Alex and Gwyneth later on. When Gwyneth is working with the police in '95, you'd never know that Alex and Gwyn were ever anything other than cordial if you didn't know their history. But perhaps that speaks to the loss of continuity post-1992 that @dc11786 spoke of in an earlier post.

Edited by Kane

  • Member
22 minutes ago, Kane said:

I feel like Clay being an imposter was always the plan. Otherwise why send someone ahead to "warn" the family that Clay had to have extensive plastic surgery and they wouldn't recognize him? I also feel like Rick exists because of the imposter story, since he's the means by which Ava discovers the truth (and this is really the only function that Rick serves that Curtis couldn't have).

Alex hating Gwyneth more than Clay ever did makes a bit of sense if you consider that he came to Corinth having only gotten Clay's version of their story, which doubtless sanitized Clay's own misdeeds (and, of course, Gwyneth didn't exactly cover herself in glory with all she'd been up to since leaving the real Clay in France)

The show continued to get mileage out of the conflict between Clay and Alex practically until the end, but I've always found it a bit curious that they never seemed to revisit the tension between Alex and Gwyneth later on. When Gwyneth is working with the police in '95, you'd never know that Alex and Gwyn were ever anything other than cordial if you didn't know their history. But perhaps that speaks to the loss of continuity post-1992 that @dc11786 spoke of in an earlier post.

You're right - it must have been planned out. Just such an odd re-intro.

Clay was often horrible to Gwyn, and she was sometimes horrible to him, but several Clay actors played a love for Gwyn too, or at least a connection no one could break (even as they both tried). It might have been interesting if Alex had fallen for Gwyn too, but I guess that story was already messy enough.

Not having any real reference to the past between Gwyn and Alex was a missed opportunity. I guess Gwyn had changed personality so much during Alex's absence from Corinth their history became even more remote, but it could have led to a moment when Gwyn was the last Alden standing.

  • Member
On 6/14/2026 at 11:27 PM, Soaplovers said:

It's probably why Kelly ends up being phased out in the first half of 1987 and the focus of the teen scene shifts to Ned/April/Kristen... which doesn't seem to last very long nor is there a strong connection to the rest of the canvas. Considering all three performers were over 18.. why they weren't college students at Alden University.. I'll never get.

In fact, the April story could have tied back into the mystery that ran through the pilot instead of being some random story that came out of nowhere and was over just as quickly as it began.

I think the original plan for the Ned / April story did involve Kelly. I think Kelly / Rob / Ned are all on at the same time and then possibly Kelly / Ned / April. I believe Teri Polo's Kirsten essentially was slotted into the Kelly role. I believe this was also when they had the original Dave Hindman around for the storyline involving his inability to read and the coach pushing him on the basketball team anyway.

I appreciate that Nixon appeared to be trying something different with April in that she seemed to benot more of a high end call girl. I just don't think there were many elements of that story that could have worked given the characters involved, the actors, and the general storyline.

17 hours ago, EricMontreal22 said:

Random--but last week the Wiki for Loving still had dates beside when was EP and who was HW when--and now they're gone... So which of you removed them? :P

If you look at the edit history, you can see them, but a good number were inaccurate anyway.

3 hours ago, DRW50 said:

The newest fragments have the setup for Zack and Lorna's exit, and more importantly, the start of "Clay's" return. I didn't know they were around the same time. Just posting this as it's the only clip with the Clay mention. A shame Lorna (or the Lorna who had a personality, anyway) never got to interact with him. She would have given him some hell.

LOVING SOAP OPERA Random Episodes Part #103! - YouTube

There is some early episodes in the list with Clay's origin story, just no Zack or Lorna, from waht I recall, which was a blessing.

1 hour ago, DRW50 said:

Another episode setting up Clay's return. We get to see the Corinth public library and the front of the paper. @dc11786 @Kane did we get to see those very often?

LOVING SOAP OPERA Random Episodes Part #108! - YouTube

They also got some use out of Christine Tudor headshots.

I'm also confused as to why "Clay" was doing all this if he was just an impostor. Did they change the story later in the year? Or is he just trying to destabilize Gwyn for his schemes? It seemed like Alex's "Clay" always hated Gwyn more than the real Clay ever did.

During the Men of Loving interview, Randolph Mantooth said he was hired to play Clay Alden. Seven or so months into the role, the exectuviutive producer came up to him and told him he was an imposter. If it was the plan all along, Mantooth wasn't in on it.

The initial Clay storyline is very similar to what Ralph Ellis wrote for Rusty Sentell on Search for Tomorrow in his 1982 run. The presumed dead father from a wealthy family (in Rusty's case, by marriage) who was recruited to work with a spy network only to return from the grave to be a conflict for those around him.

I'm also never completely clear on how Marland's Clay died. Was it in France? I know later when they are changing from Christopher Marcantel to Linden Ashby Curtis goes to South East Asia to look for Clay so I guess there was some changes at some point.

44 minutes ago, Kane said:

The show continued to get mileage out of the conflict between Clay and Alex practically until the end, but I've always found it a bit curious that they never seemed to revisit the tension between Alex and Gwyneth later on. When Gwyneth is working with the police in '95, you'd never know that Alex and Gwyn were ever anything other than cordial if you didn't know their history. But perhaps that speaks to the loss of continuity post-1992 that @dc11786 spoke of in an earlier post.

I think a big source of the purging of the continuity is Haidee Granger. It is rumored she ran off Addie Walsh and I feel like the original Burnell's story in 1992 was for Curtis to return running the department store and romancing Ava. Nothing about the Phantom of Burnell's story made sense with the established history of Burnell's as an Alden property.

Also, even the cop uniforms change after 1991. More modern and less like the outfits you saw Mike Donovan in.

  • Member
2 minutes ago, dc11786 said:

There is some early episodes in the list with Clay's origin story, just no Zack or Lorna, from waht I recall, which was a blessing.

During the Men of Loving interview, Randolph Mantooth said he was hired to play Clay Alden. Seven or so months into the role, the exectuviutive producer came up to him and told him he was an imposter. If it was the plan all along, Mantooth wasn't in on it.

The initial Clay storyline is very similar to what Ralph Ellis wrote for Rusty Sentell on Search for Tomorrow in his 1982 run. The presumed dead father from a wealthy family (in Rusty's case, by marriage) who was recruited to work with a spy network only to return from the grave to be a conflict for those around him.

I'm also never completely clear on how Marland's Clay died. Was it in France? I know later when they are changing from Christopher Marcantel to Linden Ashby Curtis goes to South East Asia to look for Clay so I guess there was some changes at some point.

I think a big source of the purging of the continuity is Haidee Granger. It is rumored she ran off Addie Walsh and I feel like the original Burnell's story in 1992 was for Curtis to return running the department store and romancing Ava. Nothing about the Phantom of Burnell's story made sense with the established history of Burnell's as an Alden property.

Also, even the cop uniforms change after 1991. More modern and less like the outfits you saw Mike Donovan in.

Thanks. I'll have to look for those.

I could see them keeping the twist from Randolph, but they were lucky he didn't get upset if that was the case. He seemed to invest a lot into Clay (he did fine with Alex too but Alex was a more typical role for him).

I think you've said you were not a fan of this Clay story - did you prefer the Rusty version?

Curtis returning for a more mature Ava is a more compelling idea than having him as the cuckold for Dinah Lee (and not knowing what to do with Ava until Alex returned).

  • Member

The way some of the Alden mansion and riverboat casino scenes are shot here is so odd. I guess the idea is to show Clay lurking in the Alden scenes but then you get the same with the casino scenes at times.

At least we see how big this set (and the riverboat casino set) were. Loving's set designers always seemed to use their funds wisely.

I don't really care for the Trisha story at this time. I don't think any of this suits the character but it also feels like such generic supercouple separation angst. Noelle Beck does her best.

LOVING SOAP OPERA Random Episodes Part #107! - YouTube

Edited by DRW50

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