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Everyone be honest for once...


Kwing42

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If Bush lied about Iraq having WMD's like many of you claim...what about these people? I mean many were from before Bush took office and many Dems were calling for Saddam to be taken out back then. But when a Republican gets the job done, and then the war goes bad....it is wrong and he lied all of a sudden? Sounds more like people using death and destruction to their advantage to conjour up support?

Please take this seriously. I do not want to hear all your anti-Bush comments, I want to hear honest thoughts on why these people are not liars.

"Without question, we need to disarm Saddam Hussein. He is a brutal, murderous dictator, leading an oppressive regime ... He presents a particularly grievous threat because he is so consistently prone to miscalculation ... And now he is miscalculating America's response to his continued deceit and his consistent grasp for weapons of mass destruction ... So the threat of Saddam Hussein with weapons of mass destruction is real..."

- Sen. John F. Kerry (D, MA), Jan. 23. 2003 | Source

"I will be voting to give the President of the United States the authority to use force -- if necessary -- to disarm Saddam Hussein because I believe that a deadly arsenal of weapons of mass destruction in his hands is a real and grave threat to our security."

- Sen. John F. Kerry (D, MA), Oct. 9, 2002 | Source

"One way or the other, we are determined to deny Iraq the capacity to develop weapons of mass destruction and the missiles to deliver them. That is our bottom line."

- President Clinton, Feb. 4, 1998 | Source

"If Saddam rejects peace and we have to use force, our purpose is clear. We want to seriously diminish the threat posed by Iraq's weapons of mass destruction program."

- President Bill Clinton, Feb. 17, 1998 | Source

"We must stop Saddam from ever again jeopardizing the stability and security of his neighbors with weapons of mass destruction."

- Madeline Albright, Feb 1, 1998 | Source

"He will use those weapons of mass destruction again, as he has ten times since 1983."

- Sandy Berger, Clinton National Security Adviser, Feb, 18, 1998 | Source

"[W]e urge you, after consulting with Congress, and consistent with the U.S. Constitution and laws, to take necessary actions (including, if appropriate, air and missile strikes on suspect Iraqi sites) to respond effectively to the threat posed by Iraq's refusal to end its weapons of mass destruction programs."

Letter to President Clinton.

- (D) Senators Carl Levin, Tom Daschle, John Kerry, others, Oct. 9, 1998 | Source

"Saddam Hussein has been engaged in the development of weapons of mass destruction technology which is a threat to countries in the region and he has made a mockery of the weapons inspection process."

- Rep. Nancy Pelosi (D, CA), Dec. 16, 1998 | Source

"Hussein has ... chosen to spend his money on building weapons of mass destruction and palaces for his cronies."

- Madeline Albright, Clinton Secretary of State, Nov. 10, 1999 | Source

"We begin with the common belief that Saddam Hussein is a tyrant and a threat to the peace and stability of the region. He has ignored the mandate of the United Nations and is building weapons of mass destruction and th! e means of delivering them."

- Sen. Carl Levin (D, MI), Sept. 19, 2002 | Source

"We know that he has stored secret supplies of biological and chemical weapons throughout his country."

- Al Gore, Sept. 23, 2002 | Source

"Iraq's search for weapons of mass destruction has proven impossible to deter and we should assume that it will continue for as long as Saddam is in power."

- Al Gore, Sept. 23, 2002 | Source

"We have known for many years that Saddam Hussein is seeking and developing weapons of mass destruction."

- Sen. Ted Kennedy (D, MA), Sept. 27, 2002 | Source

"The last UN weapons inspectors left Iraq in October of 1998. We are confident that Saddam Hussein retains some stockpiles of chemical and biological weapons, and that he has since embarked on a crash course to build up his chemical and biological warfare capabilities. Intelligence reports indicate that he is seeking nuclear weapons..."

- Sen. Robert Byrd (D, WV), Oct. 3, 2002 | Source

"There is unmistakable evidence that Saddam Hussein is working aggressively to develop nuclear weapons and will likely have nuclear weapons within the next five years ... We also should remember we have always underestimated the progress Saddam has made in development of weapons of mass destruction."

- Sen. Jay Rockefeller (D, WV), Oct 10, 2002 | Source

"In the four years since the inspectors left, intelligence reports show that Saddam Hussein has worked to rebuild his chemical and biological weapons stock, his missile delivery capability, and his nuclear program. He has also given aid, comfort, and sanctuary to terrorists, including al Qaeda members ... It is clear, however, that if left unchecked, Saddam Hussein will continue to increase his capacity to wage biological and chemical warfare, and will keep trying to develop nuclear weapons."

- Sen. Hillary Clinton (D, NY), Oct 10, 2002 | Source

"We are in possession of what I think to be compelling evidence that Saddam Hussein has, and has had for a number of years, a developing capacity for the production and storage of weapons of mass destruction."

- Sen. Bob Graham (D, FL), Dec. 8, 2002 | Source

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I guess all the above are liars then because NO ONE has found WPMs in the Middle East yet. Until they do, all these idiots should admit that they are just merely speculating instead of spouting out facts.

And I wouldn't be surprised if all of the above secretly wanted Saudi oil. Again, North Korea has WPMs and everyone knows that for a fact. So why the heck isn't anyone going in to attack them. Oh, yeah..because North Korea probably has nothing the US wants compared to Saudi Arabia not to mention that there's fear the Koreans will actually USE their WPMs if need be.

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First ... a republican did not get the job done. More have died over there than did on the day that sparked all this. And now he's smack in the middle of an unstoppable cival war. Nice job.

The bottom line is Bush invaded a soverign country, without provocation, and against the UN, and now millions are dead from both sides. Nice job.

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Ok Drew...thanks for ruining what was to be an honest open dialog with your crap.

Bush had Congressional approval for the war...because EVERYONE had the same information. So your theory there is shot.

How many times and years did Saddam break the UN Sanctions. Why would someone who had nothing to hide act like that? Also, I am sure at the time everyone who was being raped and killed and gassed under Saddam really wanted everyone to sit back and think life was fine over in Iraq. Is it good now, nope, but 80% of the violence is in Bagdad...where my brother is...(anyone in your family serving?) and he is BEGGING for more troops for his unit.

And I said everyone wanted Saddam gone..and yes, Bush did go that. I said the war has not gone well....which if it is Bushes fault it is the fault of every member of Congress who supported it. BUt those same people who now call Bush a liar, are the ones who were saying the same thing he was in 2002 but they were saying it BEFORE he took office. hmmmmm interesting no?

Now people do not be like Drew and bring the hate. I want a fair honest open disalog not one filled with hate. please

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What evidence??? That's what I want to know!

Even if Iraq had nukes doesn't mean that civilians should get bombed on.

And you still haven't answered why the U.S. is focussing solely on Saddam. Iraq is not the only country that supposedly has WPMs and Saddam was not the only dicatator to have ever existed in this decade. Bush acts like offing Saddam and winning the war against Iraq is going to save the whole world.

I wanna focus more on gov't corruption because people in the West seem to think that Saddam, Castro, and the Korean leader are the worst dicatators out there. There are so many more but unfortunately a handful are given full attention.

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Shawn...when I ask in my message to be objective, I honestly thought that grown adults could be mature. I guess that is just an assumption on my part that proved I was wrong.

As for Evidence. I am sure the world leaders did not give all of their info to you SJ but as you know we are kept out of alot of things because we are not elected to office.

I trust my Presidents and leaders when both Dems and Repubs believed and said that Saddam had WMD's. I believed other reputible world leaders when they said it as well. They did not just imagine what they were speaking of.

War will kill innocent lives that is true and thats the sad part of war. Had we left Iraq alone, the same innocent people would be getting killed. Not by bombs, but by the hands of Saddam and mass graves. I sure as hell would rather die fighting for freedom than dieing because I did not support the dictator. Imagine how this country would look if we had to live that way. We take our Freedom for granted BIG TIME.

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Shawn...when I ask in my message to be objective, I honestly thought that grown adults could be mature. I guess that is just an assumption on my part that proved I was wrong.

As for Evidence. I am sure the world leaders did not give all of their info to you SJ but as you know we are kept out of alot of things because we are not elected to office.

I trust my Presidents and leaders when both Dems and Repubs believed and said that Saddam had WMD's. I believed other reputible world leaders when they said it as well. They did not just imagine what they were speaking of.

War will kill innocent lives that is true and thats the sad part of war. Had we left Iraq alone, the same innocent people would be getting killed. Not by bombs, but by the hands of Saddam and mass graves. I sure as hell would rather die fighting for freedom than dieing because I did not support the dictator. Imagine how this country would look if we had to live that way. We take our Freedom for granted BIG TIME.

First off, grow up. That first statement is a flame-baiting crock.

Kwing, you definitely have your point of view, but you have to understand: WHY would you start up this topic specifically baiting people with an opposing opinion? "Everyone be honest," you said. This automatically brings up the assumption you are right. It is your opinion.

But I'll be honest with you. I don't think most of them are liars. But we have found NO weapons of mass destruction. Where are they? Colin Powel presented satellite pictures in his big address right before they invaded Iraq of where they were placed. They looked. Nothing. (BBC News link.)

And if there were never WMDs, which looks to be the case, at the very best Bush was misinformed and in the dark.

The Associated Press: Amid questions about prewar intelligence, the White House is acknowledging that President Bush was incorrect when he said in his State of the Union address that Iraq recently had sought significant quantities of uranium in Africa." (CBS Link.)

This a fact. There were none. And if there are WMDs and we haven't found them, then what were those photos Colin Powell showed us? Is Bush was misinformed, we should be skeptical. If Bush was kept in the dark, who is running the country?

Secondly, everyone that supported Bush was presented the same evidence Bush got. They didn't "lie" about the weapons of mass destruction. The CIA was told Bush was interested in going to war in Iraq and that he was looking for evidence. I got this from the documentary Why We Fight, where they interviewed high-ranking CIA employees and White House officials. The evidence presented to the president and to Dems/Repubs were taken out of context and only half truths. It was what they wanted, so they ran with it.

And he would have gone to war without the WMD evidence, anyway. (Video link.)

Presidents lie. What makes everyone in the world capable of lies EXCEPT the president? The worst thing Americans can do is take whatever their leaders say at face value. People SHOULD be able to trust their leaders, but that isn't always the case. Which is why free countries need to be able to speak out and pick an administration apart for its actions and decisions.

"One way or the other, we are determined to deny Iraq the capacity to develop weapons of mass destruction and the missiles to deliver them. That is our bottom line."

- President Clinton, Feb. 4, 1998 | Source

"If Saddam rejects peace and we have to use force, our purpose is clear. We want to seriously diminish the threat posed by Iraq's weapons of mass destruction program."

- President Bill Clinton, Feb. 17, 1998 | Source

Saddam was clearly a bad man. A bad man put in power by the U.S., but bad nonetheless. Clinton may have said all of that, but acting on it is another matter altogether--and the reasoning behind acting on it is also important. Wanting "to deny Iraq the capacity to develop weapons of mass destructions" does not mean they have them; if anything, to me, the "to deny" part means they actually didn't have them back in 1998.

Kwing, I guess my answer to all those quotes and why they "lied" is that they were led by misinformation. Did they know it? Maybe. Maybe not. I don't have any research. I can't say why they were misinformed, but the WH and the government have admitted they were.

And that is scary.

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Shawn...when I ask in my message to be objective, I honestly thought that grown adults could be mature. I guess that is just an assumption on my part that proved I was wrong.

As for Evidence. I am sure the world leaders did not give all of their info to you SJ but as you know we are kept out of alot of things because we are not elected to office.

I trust my Presidents and leaders when both Dems and Repubs believed and said that Saddam had WMD's. I believed other reputible world leaders when they said it as well. They did not just imagine what they were speaking of.

War will kill innocent lives that is true and thats the sad part of war. Had we left Iraq alone, the same innocent people would be getting killed. Not by bombs, but by the hands of Saddam and mass graves. I sure as hell would rather die fighting for freedom than dieing because I did not support the dictator. Imagine how this country would look if we had to live that way. We take our Freedom for granted BIG TIME.

But see, that my problem. You say you want a grown up, mature, honest debate about this entire situation. Yet, you get upset and call people childish, basically for not agreeing with you on every single point.

And, I am not one who believes my president, no matter who it is. They all have been FOS at one time or another, maybe because they wanted to, maybe because they had to. But, every single time someone says that Bush & Co. lied to us, for you to then say that since Dems before him did the same thing, or believed the same faulty intel., that must make it ok for Bush, I think is wrong.

But, let's do this. You say you want honesty? Great. Excellent. I'll be honest and say that everyone you posted in your initial post either lied or misled the American people. I'll do that.....

The very second you stop calling yourself an Independent, admit that you will defend this president and his mafia-like croonies, and stop jumping down Drew or anyone else's throat for disagreeing with you when they say that Bush is FOS. Because, with all due, I'm sick of hearing right-wing conservatives and Repubs telling me that they are middle-of-the-road, when they clearly take one side over the other every single time they post about politics.

So, there's my deal. Take it or leave it. The choice is entirely up to you. :)

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But see, that my problem. You say you want a grown up, mature, honest debate about this entire situation. Yet, you get upset and call people childish, basically for not agreeing with you on every single point.

And, I am not one who believes my president, no matter who it is. They all have been FOS at one time or another, maybe because they wanted to, maybe because they had to. But, every single time someone says that Bush & Co. lied to us, for you to then say that since Dems before him did the same thing, or believed the same faulty intel., that must make it ok for Bush, I think is wrong.

But, let's do this. You say you want honesty? Great. Excellent. I'll be honest and say that everyone you posted in your initial post either lied or misled the American people. I'll do that.....

The very second you stop calling yourself an Independent, admit that you will defend this president and his mafia-like croonies, and stop jumping down Drew or anyone else's throat for disagreeing with you when they say that Bush is FOS. Because, with all due, I'm sick of hearing right-wing conservatives and Repubs telling me that they are middle-of-the-road, when they clearly take one side over the other every single time they post about politics.

So, there's my deal. Take it or leave it. The choice is entirely up to you. :)

Is there an emoticon for standing ovation? ;)

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I am sure the world leaders did not give all of their info to you SJ but as you know we are kept out of alot of things because we are not elected to office.

And just why the hell is that, anyway? They are elected in there by the people to serve the interests of the people. Not to keep secrets from those very same people and service their own agendas.

Again, the bottom line of this whole debacle of a war is that there were no WMDs. And Bush is now involved in a civil war between the Sunnis and Shiites, two islamic religious sects, that has gone on for ages before the iraq war and is not going to come to an end simply because the american military is there.

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